The Role of a BOR and "Retesting"

[Venividi 35]

Longhaul,

 

You make many excellent points.

 

Personally, I suspect that the concept of no retest in any form was brought in to being as a result of some units interpreting the "make sure all requirements have been met" purpose as meaning an examination was required. The 1981 edition of the SM Handbook indicated that spot checking was appropriate (quote below). It appears that the definition of what a "re-test" is has changed over time, it is logical to assume that it was done to address rogue units going overboard. There should not be a need to swing completely the other way, and interpret any question about a requirement as a re-test. That doesn't appear to be of any more benefit to a scout than does turning the BOR into a re-examination.

 

Quote from 1981 SM handbook:

The purpose of the (BOR) review is to make sure that all requirements have been met. This means a check of both the technical skills and the Scout's attitude and practice of the ideals of scouting. Care must be taken that the review does not become a reexamination. Spot checking is all that need be done.

[EagleInKY 14]

Veni - You might very well be correct. Also, back in those days, scouts did the BORs for the early ranks. That was often abused (or so I've heard).

[SWScouter 34]

ljnrsu,

 

I was a scout starting in '71 and used the '72 handbook. I don't have a copy now. One thing I do remember is Boards of Review with the troop committee, I don't remember anything called Progress Reviews.

 

Interesting...

 

SWScouter

[LongHaul 10]

SWScouter,

     The progress review was part of the Boy Power phase when National tried revamping the program to make it more urban. circa 1976

OGE,

     Still not sure why you focus on one line and exclude others and claim faithfulness to the program. As for troop program I know you are not trying to say that because a troop program is heavy on map and compass that a BOR can take as a given that any boy coming before them is proficient in map and compass. I can offer any opportunity I want it doesn't mean the boys will take advantage of it. I can cut all the slip adjusters off our tents and require the boys to tie taught line hitches instead. This will not assure that every scout remains proficient at tying the taught line hitch. If the intent was to rely on the troop program to insure quality then why exclude the adults that are familiar with the boys participation in that program from the BOR. The BOR is not supposed to rely on the program it is supposed to satisfy itself that all the requirements have been met and that the boy has met those requirements in the proper way. How can we have checks and balance if we rely on the validity of what we are checking instead of checking. If all the BOR is supposed to make sure that all the requirements have been checked off and initialed then that is what the instruction should be. When it says make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank or make sure that the work has been learned and completed then that is what The BOR should do. If you Ask a Scout to explain how he interperates the part of the Scout Oath which requires duty to country are you retesting him on his First Class requirement where he talked with someone about his obligations as a US citizen. Does asking him when he would use a bowline qualify as retesting the section which asked him to describe several uses for the knot? Is asking the scout what he cooked a retest on make a menu? If I ask him how he cooked it is that the same as describe the pots and utensils needed? If I ask him what animals he saw on a campout is that a retest or do I need to ask him to identify ten to be in trouble. The SM asked the boy questions to determine if the SM should sign off on Scout Spirit. How can the BOR then ask questions to determine Scout Spirit and not be retesting? Or is Scout Spirit off limits in a BOR?  Is asking the boy what patrol he is in the same as T #8 Know you patrol name. If we are to religiously avoid asking anything which is asked as requirement or covered in the requirements such as retesting for Scout Spirit why have a BOR at all?

 LongHaul

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Longhaul, I apologize I am not able to express myself adequately. Your responses have me dumbfounded, I didnt think I implied any of what you say I did. But I accept you feel that way.

 

I didn't like it when it was alleged the book I quoted from was termed a guidebook when I see it as the rules. You see the same publication as contradictory. I guess thats where I stop. We don't see the same thing the same way and that happens.

[ljnrsu 10]

SWScouter, I was quoting from the Eighth Edition, First printing June 1972 pages 74-75.

Tenderfoot,Second Class,First Class,Star,Life, and Eagle were not called Ranks but progress awards (pg 74). I apologize for not stating my scouce.

 

The whole program of Boy Power and urban scouting was culture shock when I got reinvolved in Scouting in 1974 during college, after earning Eagle and aging out in 1971. They were interesting times but that was to be expected with a Handbook not written by Bill Hillcourt.

 

LongHaul,asking a Scout what,why,how questions is not in my opinion a retesting, but a way of determining if requirements were met. Asking what camp gadget a Scout made is not retesting it determines if the requirement was fulfilled.

Same goes with asking what requirement was his hardest or easiest.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

LongHaul,asking a Scout what,why,how questions is not in my opinion a retesting, but a way of determining if requirements were met.

 

Gotta be careful there, eh?

"WHAT precautions must be taken for a safe swim?" (2nd class 7a)

"WHY do we use the buddy system in Scouting?" (TF 9)

"HOW do we treat for exposure to poisonous plants?" (TF 11)

 

Asking what camp gadget a Scout made is not retesting it determines if the requirement was fulfilled.

 

Yah, maybe. But it doesn't determine whether the skill has been learned. And the first purpose of the BOR is "To make sure the work has been learned..."

 

Same goes with asking what requirement was his hardest or easiest.

 

I don't see this question as really applying to the first purpose of a BOR. This question really goes to the second purpose - "To check to see what kind of experience the boy is having in his patrol and troop."

 

As we see from OGE's posted questions on the other thread, questions which retest requirements are a part of what he (and almost all of us) do; it's really almost impossible to avoid if we care about fulfilling the first purpose of the board of review. As Lisabob pointed out, such direct questions are often more age-appropriate and kind than the abstract, open-ended questions used to avoid all appearance of retesting.

 

[ljnrsu 10]

Yes, the questions are supposed to be open ended as Lisa'bob pointed out. I did not feel it was necessary to repeate what she said in her excellent post.

"If the board of review is for rank advancement, the board will satisfy itself that the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for that rank and will review with the Scout the requirements for the next rank. The board of review is also a way of reviewing the troop's progress." BSA supplemental training module,board of review training.

The basic premise of "learned and completed"are the same as "has done what he was supposed to do" The idea of a BOR is to find out what was done by the scout to fulfill the requirements and were theycompleted.

"This can be accomplished by simple questions like "What did you cook for your First Class meal?" Questions like Where and When or How will soon tell the board whether achievements were properly accomplished without actually retesting. It is sufficient to know what a Scout's "camp gadget" was in order to understand whether he had been properly tested on his lashings."BSA supplemental training module,board of review training.

The use of what,why and how questions is what I was taught when I was trained as a member of council's EBOR committee many years ago. It seems that they are just as appropriate today as they were back then. The "camp gadget" question has been used for years in the Troop I serve, though it is nice seeing it in the training module.

As you pointed out how they are worded is very important."HOW do we treat for exposure to poisonous plants?" (TF 11) / Why did you learn about poisonous plants? How a question is worded does effect its purpose. Retest or inquiry.