Jump to content

dkurtenbach

Members
  • Content Count

    643
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    15

Posts posted by dkurtenbach

  1. Expected/Required Attendance: Yep, lots of sports and activities have required attendance. But the way I play the Scouting game, and the way I want boys to play the Scouting game, is this -- it is a hobby; it is not school; I only want people there who want to be there because it is fun; kids have enough pressures and requirements on them, and Scouting should not be one of them.

     

    Original Question: If I understand the original question correctly, thriftyscout is looking at campouts with 5-8 boys per patrol in attendance as a goal, and wants to "reverse engineer" such campouts to figure out what components are needed and how they should fit together. Good idea. But I guess I would suggest a starting point just a bit further back: What are we trying to accomplish with 5-8 boys per patrol on a campout that we can't accomplish with 2-3 boys per patrol on a campout? Once we have an idea of what each patrol needs all those boys for, we can try to reverse engineer that.

     

    Dan K.

  2. The only thing I'd add to the advice already given is this: if (as in many Packs) it is a combined AOL/Crossover ceremony, or they directly follow each other without a break, just include the future non-Boy Scout in the ceremony. No big deal. What really matters is not to embarrass or single out the lad. I was at a combined ceremony once where the non-crossing Scout just went and sat back down in his front-row seat surrounded by the empty chairs of the other guys. Bad.

     

    My suggestion for all is to stop using the term "Crossover" and start calling it a "Graduation" or some other term, and make the ceremony about moving on to the boy's next adventure in life. Personally, I would prefer that Webelos/New Scouts were welcomed into their new troop at a troop ceremony, rather than a pack ceremony. And there have been too many times when I've had a Scout cross over, presented him with a troop neckerchief, shoulder loops, and Handbook on the other side of the bridge -- and have never seen him again.

     

    Dan K.

  3. The patrol method works because (1) it gives boys real, meaningful, challenging but attainable tasks to accomplish (2) as a team (3) within a safe and healthy environment (4) without being able to exploit and manipulate adults into doing the work for them, as boys are so good at doing at home.

     

    OneTimeRunner wrote: "Let's see if you agree or disagree with these statements: When the patrol method is working well, the only skill that the adult leaders should be teaching on a regular basis is leadership. or: In order to implement the Patrol Method, leadership is the ONLY skill we need to be teaching."

     

    These statements assume that within the patrols, the boys have all the skills and resources they need to do the tasks that patrols do. But there are lots of patrols that don't have older boys, that don't have boys with the hands-on skills to teach other patrol members. Often the only place to get those skills is from the troop adults.

     

    This is the situation that, in my view, provides the very greatest invitation/temptation for adults to take over, because it plays right to what adults think they do well and think they are in Scouting to do (teach boys how to do things); and it provides the very greatest opportunity for boys to let them (see element 4 above).

     

    Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters wear two hats. One is as the Responsible Scouting Adult, monitoring safety and providing the right environment for Scouting, training boys in leadership, and implementing the Scouting Program (capital 'P'). The other role is that of Resource/Consultant, knowledgeable in the skills that Scouts need to learn in order to accomplish their tasks within their patrols (program with a small 'p'). All too often we don't distinguish between those roles, perhaps in part because as parents and Cub Scout Den Leaders, those two roles, plus one other, are merged. That third Parent/Den Leader role is Person Responsible For Making Sure Things Get Done. That third role is important for Parents, because there are so many real consequences when kids _don't_ get things done (like homework). That third role is important for Den Leaders, because there is no Cub Scout programming unless the adults provide it. But that third role really should not exist in Boy Scouting with regard to tasks that boys can do.

     

    The problem comes when adults mix up the roles of Resource/Consultant and Responsible Scouting Adult with the role of Person Responsible For Making Sure Things Get Done. Boy Scouting adults need to be able to keep the program safe and operating, and need to be able to teach T-2-1 skills, adventure skills, and merit badge skills, without taking over. That is hard to learn, and biting your own tongue is painful. That is easier for Boy Scout leaders to do when you know the patrols contain the necessary skills and resources, and adults only need to sit back and focus on working with the boy leaders. But that ideal situation doesn't always exist.

     

    Dan K.

     

     

     

     

     

     

  4. Stosh wrote: "As long as adults treat their boys like children that can't figure things out for themselves, they will stay that way. Why learn when some adult is going to teach you. Why problem solve anything, some adult is going to tell you what to do eventually. Why take initiative on any priorities, the adults will tell you what you need to do next. Don't worry about screwing up, some adult will have a backup plan anyway and they'll take over. If adults keep doing these kinds of things there boys will NEVER step up and take over!"

     

    In current BSA "EDGE" terminology (Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable), when do you "Enable" a Scout, and how do you do it? On one extreme are the adults Stosh describes who can't quite get over the "Guide" phase. On the other extreme is the character Hondo from the movie of the same name: When Hondo (John Wayne) hears that a boy can't swim, he promptly tosses the boy into deep water, thereby skipping over the Explain, Demonstrate, and Guide steps.

     

    EDGE assumes that a Scout doesn't know what to do or how to do it and has to be taught. The "Hondo" approach assumes that a Scout can figure it out. EDGE puts the responsibility on the adult to delegate to the Scout, while always leaving open the possibility of reeling him back in for more Explaining, Demonstrating, and Guiding, at the adult's discretion -- or the Scout's request. "Hondo" puts the responsibility on the Scout from the beginning; there is no delegation from the adult, and no "yo-yo effect."

     

    Earlier in this thread I wrote: "It is important that Scouts in positions of responsibility be sufficiently trained in what they are supposed to do before we expect them to do it." Maybe I'm wrong about that.

  5. DeanRx wrote: "2) The view of a large number of scouts and parents that AOL is a FINISH LINE, instead of the starting place for Boy Scouting. I've even heard parents lament, "I just want to get Johnny to stick it out until AOL, then he can go do football, baseball, soccer, music, etc..." - they view it as a goal to achieve and then be done."

     

    Arrow of Light IS a finish line. It is the highest rank in Cub Scouting. Receiving the Arrow of Light is, quite often, the very last Cub Scout-ish thing these boys do -- it is the end of their very last pack meeting.

     

    If parents are saying, "I just want to get Johnny to stick it out until AOL . . . ," it is already clear to the parents that Johnny is not having fun in Scouts.

     

    Retention is not rocket science.

     

    If Johnny is having fun in Scouting, he will want to continue. Period. If Johnny is not having fun in Scouting, he will not want to continue. Period.

     

    If Johnny is having fun in Scouting and the parents are happy with Scouting, they will bend over backwards to help Johnny stay in Scouting. If Johnny is not having fun in Scouting, most parents (not all) will allow him to move on to other things. That is easiest to do at a natural end point or natural break, such as completing Arrow of Light. It teaches Johnny to finish what he started, but also offers a ready exit.

     

    Dan K.

     

     

  6. Well, I think it is highly unlikely that BSA would even consider voluntarily lopping off a sizeable chunk of its membership by dropping Tigers (1st graders) or bumping Wolves up to 3rd grade, Bears to 4th grade, and reducing the Webelos to just 5th grade. We can always dream, of course.

     

    I realize we've gotten away somewhat from the original topic (changing Cub Scout advancement), but if we are talking structure, assuming the same age range for BSA programs (1st grade to age 21), what _could_ be done to alleviate the problems we see? And not necessarily with just Cub Scouts, but taking into account the ripple effect that Barry discusses?

     

    Dan K.(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

  7. drmbear wrote: "Our elementary school has boys all the way through fifth grade - why would we think we have to separate them?"

     

    drmbear, thanks for asking. I'm suggesting that we pull "Webelos" out of Cub Scout packs and make them separate units for a few reasons. You may not agree and that's okay. I'm not in charge anyway! ;)

     

    1. As Barry has described, a major issue with Cub Scout retention is adult leader burnout after 2 to 3 years. I have seen this myself -- the den leader who was the Tiger, Wolf, and Bear den leader continues on as the Webelos den leader, but is running on fumes. Taking the Webelos program out of the pack, and of necessity reorganizing to some extent, would provide a clean break that allows the long-time adult leader to step down and let someone else pick up the program.

     

    2. As we have discussed, a major issue with Cub Scout retention is boredom. I have seen this also -- even with the enthusiastic, energetic den leaders, there is more often than not a failure to grasp the differences between Tiger, Wolf, and Bear on the one hand, and the Webelos program on the other with its change of program emphasis to more outdoor activities and giving more responsibility to the boys. That is, Webelos dens are run just like Tiger, Wolf, and Bear dens. Taking the Webelos program out of the pack would clearly mark Webelos as something different than the Cub Scout program.

     

    3. Even though they may only meet once a month with the rest of the pack, the Webelos dens are still heavily involved in what the pack is doing: fundraising, Pinewood Derby, Blue & Gold Banquet, spring and fall Pack overnighters, day camp, summertime activities, etc. Taking the Webelos program out of the pack would unburden the Webelos Scouts and parents from all of those obligations and allow the Webelos units to formulate a program geared to them, rather than being attached to a program dominated by younger Cub Scouts. It also would allow the Webelos adult leaders to focus just on the Webelos Scouts and their program, rather than also being part of the pool of adult leaders working on pack-wide activities and events.

     

    Hope this answers your questions.

     

    Dan K.

  8. den ldr wrote: "While I'm clear on the AOL requirements, I'm UNclear on whether there is a rule on how we should count the six months for AOL Req. #1. I'm asking because I have a boy who joined Cub Scouts for the first time on October 18, 2010, as a Webelos 2 (age 10). He's striving to earn the AOL. Our Crossover will be March 31, 2011. Simply counting months on the calendar would put him ineligible to cross over until April 18, but there are 26+ weeks between when he joined and when we'll have Crossover. Is there a rule of thumb for counting months? I'd love for all my boys to cross over together, but I don't want to skirt the requirements. Anything worth earning is worth earning right and working for it.

     

    "His birthday (11 yo) isn't until May so he can't cross over into the troop with his fellow scouts until then if he doesn't earn the AOL."

    ------------------------------

     

    No problem -- this sort of thing happens all the time. It is a paperwork timing matter, nothing for Scout or parents to be concerned about (or even know about). At the March 31 ceremony, hand him the Arrow of Light and cross him over with the rest. Ask the Pack Advancement Chair to use the April 18 date on the advancement report, since that will be his official AoL date. Ask the troop not to register him (or don't turn in his application form) until after April 18. In the interim, he will still be a registered Webelos Scout, and you will keep the den "active" by visiting troop meetings for a couple of weeks until he hits the magic six months.

     

  9. With my older son's den, we met at my house. Ideal for me -- everything I needed for the meeting was there; I didn't have to transport it. I had a carpet remnant I rolled out on one side of my garage and ran a space heater in cold weather. We could make as much of a mess as we wanted and be as loud as we wanted. There was generally always some hammer pounding, sawing, painting, games, or some other activity going on that would often spill out into my yard. And we could always make a fire in the barbecue grill.

     

    With my younger son, we had a different den leader, and met in a classroom at the school. Totally different environment that really stifled what you could do at a den meeting. And you had to haul in all of your supplies (inevitably forgetting something), and dare not do anything that might leave a permanent mark somewhere. And then there would be the calls from the school passing on a complaint from the teacher that something had been touched or moved.

     

    Is no one doing in-home den meetings anymore?

     

    Dan K.

  10. BSA produces lots of publications, forms, pamphlets, booklets, cards, etc. But is there something that you wish BSA would make available that you don't have now? Maybe something in a different form or format than what is available, or something new? For example, I wish there was a pocket-size booklet listing just the requirements for Webelos, Arrow of Light, and the twenty Webelos Activity Badges. Also, I wish there was a compact checklist of all of the Joining Requirements through First Class requirements, but with the requirements that contain multiple parts or tasks broken out into single items. Second Class requirement 3.g., for instance, reads: "On one campout, plan and cook one hot breakfast or lunch, selecting foods from the food pyramid. Explain the importance of good nutrition. Tell how to transport, store, and prepare the foods you selected." I'd like this checklist to break those out into something like this:

     

    3.g.

    ___ Plan one hot breakfast or lunch for a campout, selecting foods from the food pyramid.

    ___ Explain the importance of good nutrition.

    ___ Tell how to transport the foods you selected.

    ___ Tell how to store the foods you selected.

    ___ Tell how to prepare the foods you selected.

    ___ On a campout, cook the hot breakfast or lunch you planned.

     

    Dan K.

     

  11. Hawkrod, thanks for your comments. I've been in a pack with two Webelos dens in 4th grade and two Webelos dens in 5th grade, and I've been in a pack with just one 4th grade Webelos Scout.

     

    I look at it this way: Currently, it only takes four adults and five boys to have a Scout unit. (I believe the minimum is even lower for LDS units -- 3 boys?) This would be no different than the many small troops we have in BSA. In some cases, the number of Webelos coming out of a large pack will be enough to have a Webelos unit from just that pack. In other cases, the Webelos from multiple packs will get together in a Webelos unit. In any event, it only takes two adults and two Scouts in order to do almost any activity.

     

    Thanks again for your thoughts.

     

    Dan K.

  12. SeattlePioneer wrote: "Webelos is already a separate program. So is Tiger Cubs." Separate program materials from Wolf and Bear, yes -- but still part of a Cub Scout pack, still in the same unit. I want to put Webelos into their own units.

     

    I'd like to get the Webelos out of the pack and away from the toddlers, but not yet into a troop. In fact, I want to stop moving 5th graders into Boy Scout troops -- still too young.

     

    Dan K.

     

     

  13. Barry, thanks for your comments. I understand your concern about parent resources, and how using up those resources for a first grade program (much less a kindergarten program) just accelerates burn-out. I'm just afraid the genie is already out of the bottle -- how long has the Tiger program been around? Twenty years, at least. Pulling Webelos out of the Pack would at least give parents/leaders a definitive end-point -- the end of 3rd grade. "Webelos" would be a time for fresh new leadership to step up.

     

    I would suggest that it is not "pushing down" Boy Scout stuff in the sense that even younger guys would be doing it. The Scouts in the Webelos unit would start doing the Boy Scout stuff right about the same time they would be crossing over to a troop in the current program (early spring of 5th grade year). In fact, rather than starting it in the fall of the 5th grade year, as Webelos do now working on Arrow of Light, I'd push the Boy Scout stuff off to the spring. The Scouts would be working on Tenderfoot at the same time in the Webelos unit as they would work on it in the current program (spring of 5th grade year, summer after 5th grade year). And really, this would delay some Boy Scout stuff for these guys even more: they wouldn't be coming home from summer camp with merit badges -- those would have to wait until they got into the troop in 6th grade.

     

    Dan K.

  14. Well, if we're talking Cub Scout structure . . .

     

    Remove Webelos Scouting from Cub Scouting. A Cub Scout pack would consist of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grades (and Kindergarten, if the pilot program is a success).

     

    The 4th and 5th graders would become a separate (small) unit utilizing the existing Webelos program; but the program would expand to include the summer (ideally, with summer camp) between 5th and 6th grades, with the boys joining Boy Scout troops in the fall as they enter 6th grade. No more Cub Scout pack stuff. The program would be expanded to add Boy Scout Tenderfoot requirements, so that if the Scout has been active, he will join the Boy Scout troop in 6th grade already holding Tenderfoot rank. (He could not work on any Boy Scout advancement or merit badges other than Tenderfoot while in the "Webelos" unit.)

     

    Dan K.

     

  15. I was a frequent contributor/poster in the early days of the "Scouting Community," BSA's attempt at a social networking site on MyScouting. Three things effectively killed that effort, which was small but encouraging. One was a technology "upgrade" that effectively blew up the forums and groups. The second was one fellow who made it his business to attack anyone whose views differed from his, and to just keep at it until he "won" the shouting match. The third was another fellow who made it his business to strike back at the first fellow and match him post for post. It quickly became impossible to hold any discussions there at all because as soon as one posted something on a topic, the other jumped in and that was the end of any productive exchanges -- the bitterness drove everyone else away.

     

    As a local preacher here likes to say, "Not a sermon, just a thought."

     

    Dan K.

  16. The new Journey to Excellence program, which replaces the Centennial Quality Unit/District/Council program, stresses retention and growth. For example, requirements for troops include:

     

    Objective -- Retention: Improve retention rate.

    -- Bronze Level: Retain and re-register 76% of eligible members, or have a 2 percentage points increase.

    -- Silver Level: Retain and re-register 80% of members, or retain and re-register 76% and have a 2 percentage points increase.

    -- Gold Level: Retain and re-register 85% of members, or retain and re-register 80% and have a 2 percentage points increase.

     

    Objective -- Building Boy Scouting: Have an increase in membership or be larger than the average size troop.

    -- Bronze Level: Have a net gain of one member over last year, or have at least 14 members.

    -- Silver Level: Increase youth members by 5%.

    -- Gold Level: Increase youth members by 10%.

     

    Dan K.

     

     

  17. 1. Eliminate the ridiculous discrepancy between Electives for Wolf rank and Electives for Bear rank. It is as if someone with a grudge against Den Leaders was going out of their way to make Cub Scouts as unnecessarily complicated as possible.

     

    2. As others have stated, less talk -- more action. I offer as Exhibit A the Webelos Fitness activity badge, the requirements of which (other than the Character Connections requirement) read:

     

    --------------------

    And do six of these:

    2. With a parent or other adult family member complete a safety notebook, which is discussed in the booklet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse " that comes with this book.

    3. Read the meal planning information in this chapter. With a parent or other family member, plan a week of meals. Explain what kinds of meals are best for you and why.

    4. Keep a record of your daily meals and snacks for a week. Decide whether you have been eating foods that are good for you.

    5. Tell an adult member of your family about the bad effects smoking or chewing tobacco would have on your body.

    6. Tell an adult member of your family four reasons why you should not use alcohol and how it could affect you.

    7. Tell an adult member of your family what drugs could do to your body and how they would affect your ability to think clearly.

    8. Read the booklet Choose to Refuse! Discuss it with an adult and show that you understand the material.

    --------------------

     

    Thus, all of the requirements for the Fitness activity badge can be done from the comfort of the Scout's couch, during TV commercials and breaks from video games. And really, "Decide whether you have been eating foods that are good for you"? Huh?

     

    3. Eliminate the name "Webelos" because it is made up, the phrase it is an acronym for now ("We'll be Loyal Scouts") has no particular significance to the actual Webelos program, and the name is frequently misused ("Webelo").

     

    4. Take the Boy Scout material out of the advancement requirements for Webelos Scout and Arrow of Light. After eliminating the "Webelos" name, just have one rank for 4th/5th graders, Arrow of Light. For those boys who _want_ to learn about Boy Scouting, they can earn the "Scout" badge by completing the Boy Scout joining requirements.

     

    5. Elimate the compass patch and compass points in Webelos Scout advancement. The Scouts can already wear the pins for the activity badges they earn -- they don't need a second item on their uniform that also indicates how many activity badges they have earned.

  18. Ummm, okay, so a federal statute is meaningless unless there is a court decision giving it teeth. A fascinating view of separation of powers and the checks and balances under the Constitution. Must be the apoplexy induced by reading Kudu's posts. Unfortunately, the energy expended in attacking Kudu's views has caused this discussion to escape Earth's gravity.

     

    Dan K.

  19. "using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916"

     

    Not just any methods; "the" methods. A particular set of methods. Not just used occasionally or used here or there; in "common" use. Familiar to all. Not just any particular sub-group of Boy Scouts; "boy scouts." Boy Scouts generally.

     

    So, what were "the" methods "in common use" by "boy scouts" on June 15, 1916? Well, this was just nine years after the Brownsea experiment and eight years after publication of _Scouting For Boys_. Scouting was spreading like wildfire around the world. B-P was very much alive and active in the movement he founded and continuing to write about how Boy Scouting is supposed to be done and how it is not supposed to be done. See, e.g., http://www.usscouts.org/history/BPoutlook1.asp. Others may disagree, but it seems obvious to me that "the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916" means the methods of training and teaching boys that had been popularized and continued to be promoted by Baden-Powell to Scouts around the world -- the methods that had triggered the explosive growth of Scouting.

     

    And surely Congress was aware that Boy Scouting was an international phenomenon ignited by a famous British general.

     

    Dan K.

  20. Interestingly, section 30902 does _not_ specify that the "methods in common use" be those of Boy Scouts _in the United States_; it says "in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." Thus we need NOT be troubled by any peculiar American notions that were contrary to Baden-Powell's methods (_the_ methods in common use by boy scouts).(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

  21. Twocubdad wrote: "Are you advocating for teaching Scoutcraft skill in common use in 1916, per the Congressional charter, or the Scoutcraft skills you think should have been in common use in 1916 had the BSA adopted BPs program wholesale?"

     

    The Congressional Charter does not say anything about teaching the Scoutcraft skills in common use in 1916. It says that BSA is to use the training methods in common use in 1916 to train boys in Scoutcraft.

     

    Dan K.

  22. The more examples I see of mis-stated LNT guidance, specific LNT techniques applied to the wrong situations, and park-specific or situation-specific exceptions to or elaborations on LNT guidance, the more I think that the guidance we need should be stated as:

     

    1. Find out the applicable laws and the land owner/manager's rules, policies, and recommendations, and do that.

     

    2. When a particular situation isn't covered by those laws, rules, policies, and recommendations, then: (a) if the area is designated for human activity, leave it cleaner than you found it; and (b) if it is a "natural" area, leave it looking like humans were never there.

     

    Dan K.

  23. What concerns me about this discussion is the premise that the Webelos Scout program is boring because it is simply more of the same stuff that the Scouts have been doing since Tigers, and the notion that the solution is more contact with Boy Scouts and Boy Scouting.

     

    If the Webelos Scout program is boring, in my experience, it is because the den leaders are running the Webelos den program just like they ran the Tiger, Wolf, and Bear den programs. If the Webelos Scout program is not fun, in my experience, it is because the den leaders are far too focused on racing through as many advancement requirements as possible rather than carefully selecting (with input from the Scouts) the program activities that will satisfy advancement requirements but will be the most interesting and have the most potential for building extended fun activities around.

     

    The solution is not to push Webelos dens toward Boy Scouts and Boy Scouting activities, but to train Webelos Den Leaders to run fun Webelos den programs using Webelos Scout materials.

     

    The question "What To Do With Webelos?" is what Boy Scout Camporee planners ask each other after Webelos dens are foisted on them by well-meaning but misguided district activities committees.

     

    Dan K.(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

×
×
  • Create New...