dkurtenbach

Barry, I never did the the research, but my experience is right in line with your conclusions. Active, interested Webelos den leaders cross most of their Scouts over to Boy Scouts. Burned out Webelos den leaders don't.

I'm not trying to suggest that this is another factor that makes it the pack's fault if the transition doesn't go well. Rather, I'm suggesting that this is another reason why the "troop-shopping" model is defective. In what BSA considers an ideal situation, where there is a strong and continuing relationship between troop and pack, the troop would be aware of the Webelos den leader's lack of enthusiasm and actively go in to pick up the slack. In a "troop-shopping" environment where there is no strong relationship, even an interested troop doing outreach would not know that a Webelos den leader is not actively working to cross the boys over.

That doesn't mean that the "troop-pack relationship" model is perfect, either. As noted in several comments here, it breaks down if the troop doesn't have a good program or good leadership, that is, if the troop isn't holding up its side of the relationship. And it is a lot harder for a pack to see issues in an associated troop and reach out to help, than the reverse situation.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Well, as I said, most of the activities described -- before we started Webelos Workshops -- we took on in an extraordinary effort to build a relationship with that Webelos den and, we hoped, that pack. And that didn't work out.

I must say, though, we did have a lot of fun with the catapults and pumpkins.

DLChris71 asked: "Can you quantify how much time and resources your troop spent on Webelos? And also if you spent time and resources that were wasted, what would your troop used those instead if not the opportunity to work with Webelos?"

The last time, as I recall, we provided the Webelos den with a night hike event, a catapult-building event, setting up a catapult range at one of their campouts and providing catapults and pumpkins, hosted the den at dinner at the district Camporee, and provided dinner for their entire pack (about 60 people) at their pack overnighter, and helped with a flag retirement ceremony. Except for the night hike and Camporee, I think all of the other activities were things that they asked us to do for them.

As to what we would have used those resources for if not trying to build a relationship with this Webelos den: Except for the Camporee, every one of those activities was on a night or weekend that was not a regular troop meeting or campout weekend. So, personally, I would have been home with my family, as the other adult leaders would likely have been, and I suspect the Scouts would have been home as well (maybe even doing a little homework). The funds expended would have stayed in the Treasury or would have been used for troop needs.

Aside from the efforts with that particular den, our recruiting efforts generally involved having a presence at Back-to-School nights in the local elementary schools in the fall, and contacting Webelos den leaders in the packs at those schools to invite them to come and visit the troop. And yes, we did reach out to them, and responded to phone calls and other inquiries. For troop visits, unlike many area troops, we wanted Webelos dens to come to a regular meeting, with the Webelos Scouts participating side-by-side with the Boy Scouts. Warts and all. This lack of any "special" activity for visiting Webelos put us at a disadvantage with many dens. I heard many, many stories of Webelos Scouts choosing troops because of the special Webelos activities the troops hosted for Webelos den visits.

It was after the debacle with that one den that we made a switch to monthly (during the school year), district-wide non-recruiting recruiting. We established what we called Webelos Workshops. Every month, at a regular troop meeting, we offered any Webelos Scout in the district a 45-minute, walk-in opportunity to work on some requirements for a Webelos activity badge or a belt loop required for an activity badge. For subject matter, we scoured the Webelos activity badge requirements to find the most hands-on, fun activities we could. (And believe me, the Webelos activity badges are so full of academic-type "tell," "explain," and "describe" requirements that it is hard to put together a full slate of hands-on, active requirements. The prime example is the Fitness activity badge, which a Scout can complete during commercials while sitting on the sofa watching his favorite television shows and popping cheese puffs.) Den Leaders loved it, because that was one less meeting they needed to plan. And we had a lot of dens return month after month. We didn't do any overt recruitment at those sessions, just had fun with the Scouts and chatted with parents and adult leaders. We didn't get all of the Webelos who came by -- not by a long shot. But we got enough that the troop started to grow, and we earned a lot of goodwill. And the investment in time and resources was extremely cost-effective.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

We always used the rough estimate that each person's personal gear plus their share of troop/patrol gear took up the same volume as an adult in a car seat. So you do a 'mob hit squad' calculation: in addition to the people in the seats, how many dead bodies could you load into trunks and storage spaces in vehicles? So you could pretty much just look at a vehicle and know what it could carry. A standard compact or midsize sedan -- 4 people (comfortably) and gear for 2, or 3 people and their gear. A 7 seat minivan or SUV -- 7 people and gear for 3, or 5 people and their gear. Full size pickup truck -- 2 people (comfortably) (two adults, or parent and son), gear for 8. When I had my minivan, my practice was to put my personal gear in the front passenger seat (which also avoided any "shotgun" claims), leaving the rest of the vehicle for whatever mix of people- or gear-hauling that was needed.

We often made use of parent drivers. They would come out with us, drop off their passengers and gear, maybe stay a bit, but then go home. Then they or other parents would come out Sunday morning to load up and drive back, though some would come out Saturday evening and stay overnight. Worked well, and the parents got to contribute with something pretty easy to do, and see what we were up to out in the woods. Sometimes it would be difficult to recruit drivers for a more distant campout, but usually the distant location was so attractive or interesting that enough adults wanted to go.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Unfortunately, in a "troop shopping" environment in an area where there are multiple packs and troops, it isn't cost-effective for a troop to do outreach to just one pack. We were "burned" more than once by Webelos dens that asked us to do campouts, help with advancement, and otherwise invest a lot of time and resources to work with them -- and then went "shopping" and decided to join another troop.

What I see more and more is district-wide outreach by troops through special events, advancement workshops, etc.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

I remember my District Commissioner some eleven years or so ago emphasizing that "There is no such thing as a 'Feeder Pack'!" But I don't know where this "Webelos Scouts should go troop shopping" notion came from. Maybe a misinterpretation of the Arrow of Light troop visit requirement. Wherever it came from, it is NOT what BSA teaches about the Webelos to Boy Scout transition.

Take a look at the transition materials on the National web site, http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boyscouts/improvedwebelostransition.aspx. The message is clear:

"The key factor to improved Webelos transition is the ongoing working relationship of the leaders of a Cub Scout pack and a Boy Scout troop. Ideally a community organization would have both a pack and a troop with leaders who work together to help move Webelos Scouts into a Boy Scout troop the same way schools move students from elementary school to middle school."

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

Had to laugh about this discussion. I'm generally philosophically opposed to troop trailers because I'm afraid of the slippery slope effect described in previous posts. Now, I've rented U-Haul trailers (cheap, cheap, cheap) a couple of times for troop outings; one was to transport bicycles, and the other was when the campout was a four-hour drive away and we couldn't get enough drivers to haul Scouts and gear that distance.

A year or so ago a couple of my ASMs who had been in the troop for a couple of years started making noises about the need for a troop trailer. I told them and the troop committee that if that was something they wanted to do, it was fine with me, but I would have nothing to do with it: not raising money to purchase it, or getting it registered or insured, or maintaining it, or finding a place to park it, or finding people to pull it. Well, the discussion was dropped.

Fast forward to last December, when I retired as SM, and was succeeded by one of those guys. Within two weeks, an email went out -- he'd located a trailer to buy. Pretty soon the trailer was sitting in his driveway with a shiny new paint job and a big BSA logo on the side.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

The _original_ supplex nylon Switchback pants were an olive drab green (at least when new) as opposed to the somewhat darker green of the current Switchbacks. The main distinction between the two versions is that the original Switchbacks had hemmed zip-off legs of standard lengths with zippers at the ankles, while the current Switchbacks have unhemmed legs and no ankle zippers.

Difficult to shorten the legs of the original Switchbacks because of the ankle zipper at the bottom and the leg zipper at the top. You could run a fold around the middle of the leg (above the ankle zipper) to shorten them.

I solved the problem by fishing some shock cord through the bottom hem of the legs to "elasticize" them, tying off each end of the shock cord next to the ankle zipper, so the zipper can still be used. The elasticized hems fit snuggly around my boot tops, preventing the excess length from dragging, and helping keep out ticks and other critters.

Well, the OA states that one of its purposes is to encourage high personal standards of conduct through _recognition_, that is, membership in Scouting's honor society:

" . . . through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition."

http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/

For that to work, Scouts have to know about the Order of the Arrow and perceive it as prestigious and desirable. That means _marketing_. The OA sash is a highly visible, instantly identifiable, and highly distinctive symbol of OA membership. It marks the wearers as something special. Much more so than pocket flaps or dangles, which are just more doodads on a uniform shirt already loaded down with doodads.

That is, the sash is an excellent marketing tool for helping carry out the above-quoted purpose of the OA. But if the effect of OA sash-wear policy is that the sash is rarely seen by any Scouts other than other Arrowmen, then OA is squandering a marketing asset.

Even worse, a new Arrowman completes his Ordeal. He is rightly proud of his accomplishment, and proud and grateful that his fellow Scouts chose him. But when he goes to his first troop meeting after the Ordeal, he can't talk about his Ordeal experiences, and he can't even wear his sash. It sure doesn't feel like an honor.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

I am a former Cub Scout and Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner. As expressed in many of the comments here, there is some confusion and a wide array of opinions about what Roundtable is for and what it should contain.

For district leaders (District Executive, District Commissioner, District Chair, committee and activity chairs), Roundtable not only allows them to check off boxes for their job requirements, it is the ideal forum for information and announcements. Roundtable IS the ONLY regular meeting of unit representatives. (Ideally, this need would be met by all CORs attending the District Committee meeting. Ha!) As such, it is a real service to units to let them know what is going on in the district, what programs they can take advantage of, and where they can get help, and for people to be able to ask questions, get answers, and conduct a lot of business on the side (turning in forms, for example). Many unit leaders come to Roundtable solely to get the "news" and take care of unit business. And that's okay. As with other commissioner activities, the purpose of Roundtable is unit service. If the unit is being served at Roundtable through announcements and being able to ask questions and turn in forms, then we're doing good. And doing far better than if Roundtable was offering "skill" programs that no one attends because the unit leaders don't need knot tying lessons or practice making sock puppets.

And I think that is really the key to Roundtable: giving leaders what they NEED in order to succeed in their positions, because NEED will bring them out when WANT will not -- it is a big deal giving up yet another night to Scouting. So what do unit Scouters need to succeed? Knowledge and Inspiration: In addition to the "news," accurate information about rules and policies. Accurate information about operations and procedures -- this is how X is supposed to work in the unit. Problem solving options -- how to approach particular issues that crop up in unit operations (conflicts with parents, unmotivated Scouts, etc.). Program options -- where to go, how to get started doing a new type of activity, fun stuff that the unit hasn't done before. And from beginning to end, a reaffirmation of purpose -- this is why we are here; this is why we sacrifice our time, energy, and money; I'm not alone, but am part of a great and worthy enterprise full of wonderful people that I can call friends.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Interestingly, another one of the four purposes of the OA is to: "Recognize those who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law in their daily lives and through that recognition cause others to conduct themselves in a way that warrants similar recognition."

Maybe the folks trying to limit sash wear aren't talking to the folks who want to use "honor society" membership as a means to encourage high personal standards of conduct.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

When I was Scoutmaster, I looked for ways both to promote the Order of the Arrow and to give Arrowmen the opportunity to carry out one of the purposes of the OA: "Promote camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship as essential components of every Scouts experience, in the unit, year-round, and in summer camp." And so every Court of Honor was declared an OA activity for all of the Arrowmen in the troop, as they were to do something at the CoH related to the promotion of camping, responsible outdoor adventure, and environmental stewardship. Thus OA sashes were expected to be worn.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

I would also suggest that Barry's story is a powerful lesson in why preventing burnout or dealing with it early is so important. The deeper the burnout, the longer the vacation or recovery period and the greater distance the individual puts between himself and the activity. The greater the distance, the fewer and smaller the contributions from that individual during that "break." And if the break is lengthy, how does that person with a wealth of skill, knowledge, and experience find his or her way back into the program in a sustainable way?

We all know stories about someone (pro football coaches come to mind) who burned out, tried making a comeback in a similar job at a similar intensity, had much less success and burned out again even faster, and was never heard from again. But we also know stories about folks who would pop up in a particular role that he or she would hold for a short productive period, step down and disappear briefly, then pop up in a different role for another short productive period. And they do that seemingly forever -- I see a lot of those folks in Scouting at the district and council levels.

And I know several very long-term Unit Commissioners and District Committee members that have only that one "official" Scouting job. They also show up regularly at Roundtable and district events (to help with the Parent-Son Bake-off judging, and the Chili Cook-off judging, and manning the grill at the Day Camp cookout), but don't take on any other large or long-term jobs or projects. They have found a comfortable pace for contributing to Scouting over the long haul. (I also think perhaps that they have adopted a pace that is not only congenial for them, but is just slow enough to discourage the "recruiters" from asking them to take on more intensive roles.)

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Excellent point by Barry on the effects of constant stress as a contributor to burnout. Even at low to moderate levels, even when you're having a lot of fun in the job, it is wear and tear.

By the way, Barry, our Commissioners College has regularly offered a course on "Commissioner Burnout."

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Burnout is what its name suggests: The fuel is getting used up, and the output of energy is way down. The thing about burnout is that the "fuel" consists of things like personal satisfaction, fun, new experiences, learning, and personal growth. When those personal rewards are no longer coming from the activity (such as when the individual has been at it so long that there is nothing new), or when the rewards begin to diminish but the work required does not, or when outside circumstances prevent or overshadow those personal rewards, no new fuel is being added to the fire.

There are always some interests and activities that individuals will never get tired of, and never experience burnout from, regardless of how long they have been doing it. That's where you get your 30-year Scoutmasters. And there are folks who manage to find a balance in a particular job that can be sustained indefinitely; that usually involves the individual being free to increase or decrease involvement (and the work required for the job) as it suits him or her. That's where you get your long-term ASMs and district and council committee members. But with most folks doing a job that requires a sustained and constant effort over time, burnout will come sooner or later.

Once burnout starts, there's really little that can be done. Making some changes to the job may slow burnout down a bit, but it is really hard to increase the personal rewards of a job that someone has been doing for a while.

So really, the only way to prevent burnout is to have a person change jobs before the personal rewards start to fade. That's why a 3-year term limit, common for many council and district jobs, is a good idea.

You don't suppose they read this thread . . . ?

Well, at least if my thousand bucks is in the endowment fund, only the interest (a mere pittance) is available to be misused each year. But since I can see that at least some council money is going to program (maintenance and improvements at our camps, campership money for kids in my troop, our helpful and knowledgeable DE's salary (a mere pittance), etc.), I think it is a safe assumption that at least some of the income from the gift given in my name to the endowment fund is going somewhere worthwhile. Kool-Aid? Nah. More like Mountain Dew -- it tickles my innards.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Before the District Committee meeting last week, I was talking to a relatively new member, who said something along the lines of: "You know, we're legitimately checking off all the boxes and got 'Gold' [Journey to Excellence] last year. If we can do that with all this [colorful metaphor for "problem areas"] going on, what are the non-Gold districts like?"

Well, they're kinda like our district was two years ago, and four years ago, and seven years ago, and . . . well, you get the picture. District are just like units, in that the real key for them to work is having good people in the right jobs working together. All it takes is someone stepping down or moving away to send some functional area into a tailspin; and all it takes is some other talented person signing up to get things back flying right.

If another system could be devised that would be much more durable -- better able to continue functioning well when key people are lost -- I'd love to hear about it.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

There has to be an administrative interface between units/chartered organizations and the council for things like rechartering, activity registration, summer camp registration, and new member registration. More and more, these functions are being handled online through council or National systems. The last vestige of rechartering via the District Commissioner is turning in a signed paper printout of the recharter roster -- and I can't imagine that that will last long.

And there has to be a framework for recruiting and organizing volunteers to carry out functions such as training, fundraising, multi-unit activities, and unit service. There will always have to be some sort of heirarchical framework for doing that. If you don't do it geographically (districts), you have to come up with another system. Since you are dealing with organizing people, you are talking about meetings -- and so geographic proximity matters. That is, until technology makes it possible to hold face-to-face meetings with all the "attendees" in different locations. (Telephone conferences are good for many things, but face-to-face interaction is still important for some things.)

That said, I think there are some things about districts that are inherently inefficient, like the separation between Commissioner functions and District Committee functions. This is particularly true in districts where the "usual suspects" show up at both the District Commissioner's meeting and the District Committee meeting.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

"Hey, Mr. K, what is that knot for?"

"That's the James E. West Fellowship knot. That's for donating money to the council endowment fund."

"How much money?"

"Well, for the James E. West Fellowship, at least a thousand dollars."

"Are you crazy, Mr. K? You bought a knot for a thousand dollars? Do you know what you can do with a thousand dollars?"

"I'm crazy enough to be hanging out with Scouts like you. Do YOU know what a thousand dollars in the council endowment fund can do?"

"What's an endowment fund?"

"It's a permanent pool of money that sits there and earns interest, and the council can then spend the interest on Scouting programs, like camperships for kids who can't afford summer camp, and making sure your brother's Eagle Scout application is processed, and getting toilet paper for your favorite latrine at Camp Olmsted."

"Booooorrrrrrinnnnnngggg. You could use that money for Sea Base."

"Yeah, I could. But then I'd be spending it on me. What I wanted to do was to say 'thank you' to Scouting for everything it has done for me and my kids. And that money will say 'thank you' for as long as the council is around. My gift will be buying toilet paper for your grandkids."

"Buying toilet paper isn't worth a knot. Mr. G got his knot at the last Court of Honor for going on campouts and working with us Scouts."

"And other things that he did behind the scenes, like going to training. His knot is well-deserved. I've got that same one, here. And these other knots on my shirt are like that -- for working with Scouts. Now, the money I gave will make it possible for other people to be working with Scouts every day for, well, forever."

"But YOU didn't do any work for that knot. You just wrote a check."

"You've been out in the woods enough to know that money doesn't grow on trees. Where do you think the money comes from? I got it working at my job. I earned it. How did you pay for the canoe trip?"

"With the money I earned from the troop mulch sale, and babysitting."

"So, you worked so that you could earn money so you could do Scouting. I worked so that I could earn money so that you and other kids like you could do Scouting. What's the difference?"

"I didn't get a knot."

"You've never been able to 'get' a knot for more than ten minutes."

"That hurts, Mr. K."

"These other knots are for helping Scouts do Scouting in the past. This knot is for helping Scouts do Scouting in the future, even when I'm not here to do it myself. I bought a knot for a thousand dollars so I could keep doing Scouting long after I'm dead."

The underlying problem, as I see it, is the flip side of what many folks see as a great strength of Boy Scouting: BSA allows, tolerates, even encourages infinite diversity in how troops and their programs are operated. There is no single vision -- much less a standard -- for what an Eagle Scout should be or should be able to do.

Equally at home in Boy Scouting are those who run a highly regimented, advancement-oriented program full of merit badge clinics, and those focused on the acquisition of a high level of outdoor and preparedness skills, with advancement as almost an afterthought. BSA honors Scouts who use their skills to save lives and Scouts who earn every available merit badge. BSA promotes the Eagle Scout rank -- which can be earned even by a Scout who never hikes a single mile on his two feet -- at the same time it promotes its newest high adventure base.

Want to see the confusion about Boy Scouting graphically represented? Check out the cover illustration on the DVDs of BSA's "Scouting for Adventure" television show (http://boyslife.org/home/bl-store/14425/get-your-scouting-for-adventure-dvd-today/). As the title indicates, the show is about outdoor Scout adventures. But on the cover, beneath the title, the illustration is an evenly-spaced line of (white) Scouts and Scouters in full uniform (including some neckerchiefs and merit badge sashes), in rigid, defiant stances, with the one in the center holding the staff of a waving American flag. Scouting for Adventure? Or Scouting for a Parade? (Or if I were cynical, Scouting Defending America Against Undesirables.)

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

I really don't mean this to sound like another "Scouting was better in the good old days" comment -- you can actually look this up in the 7th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, which I used when I was a Scout. (I note that this same handbook was spoofed by The History Bluff website ("Making a mess of history"), http://www.thehistorybluff.com/?p=2391.) Anyway, under that handbook, Second Class rank was centered on hiking, while First Class was centered on camping. Excerpt from the table of contents (see http://www.troop97.net/bshb_ed6.htm):

Hiking Trail to SECOND CLASS

-Second Class Tests

-Your Life as a Scout

-Let's Go Hiking

-Find Your Way

-Lost

-Get to Know Nature

-Trailing, Tracking, and Stalking

-The Tools of a Woodsman

-Your Hike Meal

-Emergency Preparation

-Scout Spirit

Camping Trail to FIRST CLASS

-First Class Test

-Your Life as a Scout

-To Camp!

-Your First Class Camps

-Mapping

-The Stars in the Sky

-Woodlore

-Go Swimming

-Get a Message Through

-Be Prepared for Accidents

-Scout Spirit

-Adventure Camping

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Since you've now registered with the lodge, you're probably now on list of Ordeal members eligible for Brotherhood -- and will likely be chased down by your local chapter, because Brotherhood conversions are a "quality" factor. But you can just ask your Unit Commissioner or District Executive to give your contact information to the Chapter Adviser or Associate Adviser and have them get in touch.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

OwntheNight wrote: "Now if they could get all the coloring the same for all the uniforms, so we could actually look uniform wearing the different combinations, then supply would be onto something."

Back when they were moving to the newer version of the Switchback pants, I bought four more pairs of the original Switchbacks on the ScoutStuff buy one/get one free sale. That made five pairs altogether that I own, and I wear them a lot -- and wash them a lot. They have all faded to different degrees and to different shades, ranging from light gray/green to brown. But they are all still going strong. I did alter them a bit by running shock cord through the bottom hems -- the elastic hems now fit snugly over my boots, both to help keep out ticks and other critters, and take care of those slightly too long pant legs.

I've got the Supplex nylon shirt as my "troop" shirt and the microfiber shirt as my "district" shirt. Overall, I prefer the look and fit of the Supplex nylon shirt over the microfiber. In my opinion, the biggest advantage of the microfiber shirt is that it doesn't have that danged "smokes" pocket that is on the sleeve of the nylon shirt. With a patch sewn on it, that thing always catches when I'm trying to put on a jacket. Besides the vented back, the chest pockets on the microfiber shirt have rounded corners, the "Boy Scouts of America" and flag are embroidered, and the pockets both have buttons on the underside of the flaps for hanging doo-dads.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA

Last summer I offered to counsel the Hiking merit badge for Scouts in my troop. Had an introductory meeting with about six interested Scouts AND their parents to go over the requirements. Lots of enthusiasm, particularly from some of the guys going to Philmont this summer. I loaned out some books describing hiking trails in the area, asked the guys to figure out where they wanted to go and start working on hike plans, per the requirements. And pretty much nothing happened after that.

I'm convinced that had _I_ planned the hikes and all that the boys had to do was show up, there'd be half a dozen boys with 70 miles on their boots. But because they had to take the initiative to plan the hikes, that was too hard. That is, the physical exertion was no problem; it was the mental effort of the Hiking merit badge that made it unappealing.

Dan Kurtenbach

Fairfax, VA