DigitalScout

If all the big three pull out, can the BSA weather the transition ? Will the schools and others come back ? Or does it lead to a permanently smaller BSA ?

 

Other than the meeting space and trailer storage, do the churches provide any other meaningful resources to the troops ?

Considering the black eye that LDS got when campaigning for Prop. 8 in California to ban gay marriage, LDS may be trying to avoid any additional controversy when it comes to gay issues. I'm not sure that LDS would leave en mass if the BSA gay ban was lifted. After all, they have a large campaign to make gay people feel welcome in LDS.

If all the big three pull out, can the BSA weather the transition ? Will the schools and others come back ? Or does it lead to a permanently smaller BSA ?

 

Other than the meeting space and trailer storage, do the churches provide any other meaningful resources to the troops ?

Our church pretty much allows meeting space and storage but our BSA unit also provide an outreach to our community for our church. The church gets to show how active they are in the community and with young families by having a scouting program.

A good litmus test would be if the church charters Girl Scout Troops then they should have no problem with gays in the BSA. GSUSA allows gay scouts, gay leaders.

All COs will HAVE to accept registration from openly gay youth if the resolution passes? I think most (but not all) LDS wards and Catholic churches can live with gay youth in their midst, but what is the Southern Baptist Convention units going to do if this passes? It will be just a matter of time before a gay activist teen registers with a troop chartered by the SBC just to cause a stir. The BSA will have to back the gay youth's registration. That would be interesting.

All COs will HAVE to accept registration from openly gay youth if the resolution passes? I think most (but not all) LDS wards and Catholic churches can live with gay youth in their midst, but what is the Southern Baptist Convention units going to do if this passes? It will be just a matter of time before a gay activist teen registers with a troop chartered by the SBC just to cause a stir. The BSA will have to back the gay youth's registration. That would be interesting.

I agree, a completely absurd resolution. Written by total cowards. Why not give the delegates a resolution worth voting on? Maybe because they knew it would pass and anger the conservatives?

 

I was afraid that the resolution would be a complete cop out. Cowards.

This is exactly what a "cop out" looks like. The majority of youth wants change so the BSA recommends allowing in gay Scouts. The majority of leaders support the current policy so they recommend keeping the ban on gay Scouters. So basically there is no change other than a gay youth can't be denied Eagle Scout. Then what? That gay Eagle Scout must promptly leave the premises because their homosexuality is abhorrent?

So a core value of Scouting is that gay youth are welcomed with open arms. But once you are an adult you are persona non grata. That makes no sense at all to anyone: conservative, mainstream or liberal.

How did this recommendation make it out of committee? Certainly the evangelicals must find it unacceptable to condone any homosexuality, even by youth. I thought their stance was that they were going to shut down their scouting program and burn all the unit possessions in the church parking lot if the BSA changes anything.

Having said all of that' date=' I am concerned about an individual that is so wrapped in his or her sexuality that s/he must be identified as Jack/Jill the gay Scout leader. Why can't it just be Jack or Jill the Scout leader? [/quote'] You just don't get it. There is this fantasy that we are going to get gay scout leaders showing up in a feather boa and high heals, and shouting in front of the scouts "let me tell you how great it is to be gay!". It's total BS. The problem is that you declare your sexuality every time you introduce your wife as your wife. Gay leaders just want the same freedom to get dropped off at an event by their "partner" without the fear that somebody is going to report them and cause pain for them and their unit. "Don't ask don't tell" doesn't work because "telling" really means "someone found out and complained".

 

No, not really. Every time I introduce my wife, I'm introducing my wife. I'm not telling anyone anything about my sexuality. Sometimes a wife is just a wife. You say "...gay leaders want the same freedom to get dropped off at an event by their partner..." how would "don't ask, don't tell" impact that? It wouldn't. Let's be honest with one another here for a moment - we've had gay leaders in Scouting for as long as we've had Scouting. And I'm sure that "gay leaders have been dropped off at events by their partners" from time to time. And maybe even those inclined to wonder why Mr. Jones is always being dropped off by Mr. Smith, the youth really didn't "know" anything about the sexuality of the adult leaders. Sure, they may have guessed. They may have intuited it as they got older. But it wasn't out in the open so to speak.

 

So what we're really talking about is that those who feel passionate about forcing the Scouts to accept gay leaders really do want to have "Joe the gay leader" instead of "Joe the leader". I'm not smart enough to know why this is so important, but suspect it has something to do with mainstream acceptance and changing the cultural and moral values of our country. But that's just a guess. I may not get it.

The big problem with DADT is that it takes away all rights from the person. A gay scouter doesn't have to tell anyone about their sexuality but it allows them to be tossed out if anyone complains for any reason and there is no recourse. Jennifer Tyrrell is a good example. Her pack was fine that she was a lesbian because she was a great leader and she never discussed her sexuality. But someone had an ax to grind, maybe she crossed someone, a complaint was made to the council and she got tossed out without any hearing or anything. How is that fair?

 

Also, how do you hide the fact that you may be married or in an long-term relationship with someone who is the same sex? Do you think you can hide the fact that you are married? How do you keep the scouts from talking about "my mom and dad" or "my two dads" or "my two moms?"

Four gay NFL football players are considering coming out. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9137573/brendon-ayanbadejo-says-four-players-considering-coming-gay

It will be a significant event when these pro athletes came out since pro football it is such a huge part of American culture. If the NFL players come out before the May meeting, it would certainly add more pressure on the BSA to open up scouting to gay people.

Interesting article regarding this topic. The last line in the article is the sad part. "the meetings have ceased"

 

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/public-school-boots-cub-scouts.html

I seem to have gone back in time a week and a half.

Perhaps each group will get a new uniform change' date=' or maybe just a change in their epillet colors, so you will know who to avoid if they are wearing their class A uniforms.[/quote']

 

I don't like the sound of that at all: making people wear some symbol so you can keep track of them.

 

I hope these comments about the separating conservative and progressive scouts/scouters are meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Do you really believe there exists conservative people who are so anti-gay that they won't attend a camp where there *might* be gay people? Really? How do they live like that? Seriously, how to they leave their homes, shop for groceries, stay in a hotel, tour a museum, attend a concert or visit an amusement park where there might be gay people?

I think a win' date=' i.e. reaching more kids and thus increasing membership, is possible by ending all discrimination (gays, atheists, girls) via local option. We need to get back into schools, military bases,... My $0.02 or more likely 2 aspirin as it will be painful no matter what at this point.[/quote'] RememberSchiff, What do we do about the Scout Oath if we let atheists in?

 

How about the same thing when Explorer Posts got moved into L4L. Or make gods optional, like it is for oaths in court.

 

 

As an aside, here's a billionaire former scout on the issue:

ALLEN: Should the Boy Scouts of America rescind its ban on gay members and leaders?

 

GATES: Absolutely.

 

ALLEN: …Why?

 

GATES: Because it’s 2013.

That is awesome.

I think a win' date=' i.e. reaching more kids and thus increasing membership, is possible by ending all discrimination (gays, atheists, girls) via local option. We need to get back into schools, military bases,... My $0.02 or more likely 2 aspirin as it will be painful no matter what at this point.[/quote']

 

 

RememberSchiff,

 

What do we do about the Scout Oath if we let atheists in?

What do the scout atheists do now when they recite the Scout Oath? I think the BSA would get a lot more mileage with an "everyone is welcome" message than the current exclusionary policy.

 

I never understood why some people think atheists are such a threat. What's the worse thing that would happen if atheists were welcomed into the BSA? They would be exposed to an occasional prayer, interact with others who believe in a higher power, and see that Christians can be are welcoming and tolerant. It's all upside as far as I'm concerned.

I just completed the survey for leaders. Some of the questions led me to believe that they are not only considering the local option but also considering a uniform policy to prohibit discrimination against gay leaders and scouts.

The local option is a compromise policy much like the Missouri Compromise which was an attempt to allow states to choose to be slave and free states. The Missouri Compromise failed and I think the local option policy if enacted is doomed to fail as well. You can't split the baby. Eventually the BSA will have to adopt a uniform sexual orientation non-discrimination policy.

The process is odd but I think it's slow for a reason. This is a big change. Change is hard.

I would really be surprised if there was a final decision in May. My guess is that they will postpone it as long as possible.

The beginning of the end of my unit started tonight.......The phone call I have dreaded happened....One of my Bible thumping parents contacted the COR about the gay leader in the unit. The next phone call was from a Pack committee member, if Mr. J is asked to leave, expect my resignation and the CM, CC WDL and BDL.....that will kill the Pack. I will have lost my second adult for troop outings....killing the troops outdoor program.

 

 

It is hard enough to recruit volunteers, good ones are like gold, harder yet to get them trained for their positions and then for them to do their job well. To have one person who isn't active in either Units leadership to be able to decapitate both units...........

 

I completely exhausted. I just don't understand the hatred.

 

I ponder my own membership at this point, At least we haven't paid for summer camp yet.

Boy, you have a peach of a parent there, BD. IT sounds like he was calculating that it would destroy the two units ahead of the BSA vote. And he will probably quit scouting if the local option is enacted.

What are the chances the COR takes no action until the local option issue is decided?

I appreciate everyone's input and the links to other resources. This casts a lot of light on how LDS packs operate.

AZMike - here's the flaw in your logic:

 

"Lemons are yellow. Lemons are fruit. Therefore all fruit is yellow." ... is equivalent to ...

 

"Homosexual sex is practiced by homosexuals. Homosexual sex is practiced by pedophiles. Therefore all homosexuals are pedophiles." This latter statement summarizes your position, correct?

AZMike - here's the flaw in your logic:

"Lemons are yellow. Lemons are fruit. Therefore all fruit is yellow." ... is equivalent to ...

"Homosexual sex is practiced by homosexuals. Homosexual sex is practiced by pedophiles. Therefore all homosexuals are pedophiles." This latter statement summarizes your position, correct?

At our monthly Cub Scout parent meeting last night, someone mentioned that in LDS packs, only LDS members are permitted to be in leadership positions (Cubmaster, Committee Chair, Treasurer, etc.). In other words, non-LDS parents cannot serve on the pack committee. Is this true?

What other special requirements or restrictions do LDS Cub Scout packs have?

One problem with arming teachers is that it is that there is an underlying assumption that the teachers are mentally stable. Thomas Hamilton was a scout leader and youth club director. In 1996, armed with 4 handguns (no assault rifle), he killed 16 children and 1 adult in a school in Scotland. He cared very deeply about kids. So giving more people guns isn't such a good idea especially in schools. This incident led to the handgun ban in the UK.

It's not so easy to say "just keep guns away from criminals and the mentally ill" because many times people just snap and don't become criminals until that first pull of the trigger.

The recent debate over gun control has revealed that there sizable segament of our society who doesn't necessary want guns for hunting or personal defense, but to protect themselves against the tyranny of the government.

I find this concept baffling. Am I just being naive in thinking that are democratically elected representatives carry out the will of the citizens? And that our constitution, not guns, protect us from tyranny?

Do you believe that our representative democracy is, as Abraham Lincoln says, 'a government of the people, by the people, for the people?' If not, then what is our government?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Best post of the day! You really got me to laugh, AZMike. Some of us really are old-fashioned hippies with Whole Earth Catalogs next to out Firefox books and practicing old-timey skills that most people don't care about. That's pure forum gold!