DigitalScout

I am King of the Forest....

 

I am a Scoutmaster of a troop of 30 young men. We camp as a troop monthly, our patrols have monthly patrol outings. We participate in community service and are working on being Boy led. the patrols have a very strong patrol identity and I couldn't happier.

 

Very Little national says actually impacts the youth in my program......We have, I suspect, gay youth as members already. We have gay scouters. we have muslims, jews, catholics atheist and all variety of protestants.

 

 

I jump thru the training hoops, I jump thru the paper work hoops, I jump thru the rules hoops.......But ya know the boys never see it and probably could care less.

 

 

 

Because I understand that scouting isn't about me.

And I suppose that being "an American" could mean anyone from the Western Hemisphere (North and South America along with associated islands). Not that that helps DS's Indians, Kiwis, or Brits

 

[EDIT]On a slightly more serious note, the "A" in BSA stands for America. Another requirement states that you must recite the Pledge of Allegiance. That is many units' opening ceremony. DS, do you ask your "foreigners" to pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA? Are they required to know that?

 

As jblake said, "When in Rome". If a Scout born in the USA were to join Scouting in Japan (whatever that organization is named) he would be expected to know or learn their requirements; why shouldn't any member of the BSA -- no matter their birthplace?[/EDIT]

The LDS got a ton of flack in California for backing Prop. 8 which banned same-sex marriage. LDS urged their members to give to a pro-Prop 8 and 45% of the money came from Utah. Many people were pretty pissed off at LDS for that. The backlash surprised LDS who has been reaching out to the gay community and make amends. LDS also has a reputation of not being very welcoming to African-Americans. Mormons are also very conservative. The Mormons I personally know are very decent folk.

The Outdoor Code

As an American, I will do my best to -

Be clean in my outdoor manners.

Be careful with fire.

Be considerate in the outdoors.

Be conservation minded.

Why does the Outdoor Code begin with "as an American ..." There is nothing specific in the code that one can only do as an American. I think that it is an inefficient use of language and should be removed. American citizenship is not a requirement for BSA membership so why include that phrase?

There are a few scouts in our Troop who were born in India, New Zealand and the U.K. What the protocol when reciting the Outdoor Code?

I believe the Pope wears one as well' date=' and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.[/quote']

 

Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

 

Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)

 

With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

What's the history behind the tonsure?

Moose, A lot of folks call that standing on principle. Stay and fight for yours, that is your right. But do not deny folks who disagree the right to follow theirs. Regardless, the debate is over and nobody here has answered my question. Why do any of us care about what TLUSA is doing? They made their decision and left, which is what they said they would do. Why are scouters in the BSA taking pot shots at them and their organization?

Stosh - the liberties of one person often infringes on the liberties of another and that's where the conflict arises. I think people should be free to smoke. But I don't want to breathe their cancer-causing exhaust because that infringes on my rights. So who's liberty prevails?

Conservatives talk big about freedom and liberty but they are right there getting into other peoples' business when two gay people want to marry or when someone needs marijuana for medical treatment or when a terminally ill person wants a dignified exit from this life or a woman wants to terminal a pregnancy.

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS.

 

I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good.

 

On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't.

 

With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days.

 

Stosh

I find it humourous that the silhouette on the patch looks like Iron Mike in front of Bldg 4 at Ft. Benning.

Nobody said that Trail Life is a racist group. They seem like a live-and-let live organization and want to do their own thing which is all well and good. I was merely pointing out that they have set up a qualification system to guarantee a very homogeneous group. An outsider may not feel very welcome. And I think that is the intention.

I just wanted to point out their hypocrisy of trying to come off like "everyone is welcome" because they aren't. It's a farce. The entire top-down leadership is white, evangelical/conservative Christian males. The purpose of their formation was so they can be with their own kind and I'm pretty sure that means no Jews, African-Americans, or immigrants. Here are some photos of their convention. It doesn't look like an "everyone is welcome" type of group. http://snapwidget.com/tags/?id=traillifeusa#.UjnadWTXg-h

 

I'd have more respect for them if they just said that "Christian boys and their families are welcome to join." How hard is that?

 

I sincerely hope they succeed as they seem like a well-intentioned group for conservative, evangelical Christians in the BSA to flock to.

I find this humorous: on the Trail LIfe forum a Mormon asked that the Statement of Faith be modified because Mormons don't believe in the Trinity nor the divinity of Jesus. He was told in no uncertain terms "no", that he was welcome to participate but he couldn't be leader. It appears the sword of exclusion cuts both ways. Actually, I find it ironic, not humorous.

I just wanted to point out their hypocrisy of trying to come off like "everyone is welcome" because they aren't. It's a farce. The entire top-down leadership is white, evangelical/conservative Christian males. The purpose of their formation was so they can be with their own kind and I'm pretty sure that means no Jews, African-Americans, or immigrants. Here are some photos of their convention. It doesn't look like an "everyone is welcome" type of group. http://snapwidget.com/tags/?id=traillifeusa#.UjnadWTXg-h

 

I'd have more respect for them if they just said that "Christian boys and their families are welcome to join." How hard is that?

 

I sincerely hope they succeed as they seem like a well-intentioned group for conservative, evangelical Christians in the BSA to flock to.

I stand corrected - TLUSA is a model of diversity (wink, wink).

I just wanted to point out their hypocrisy of trying to come off like "everyone is welcome" because they aren't. It's a farce. The entire top-down leadership is white, evangelical/conservative Christian males. The purpose of their formation was so they can be with their own kind and I'm pretty sure that means no Jews, African-Americans, or immigrants. Here are some photos of their convention. It doesn't look like an "everyone is welcome" type of group. http://snapwidget.com/tags/?id=traillifeusa#.UjnadWTXg-h

I'd have more respect for them if they just said that "Christian boys and their families are welcome to join." How hard is that?

I sincerely hope they succeed as they seem like a well-intentioned group for conservative, evangelical Christians in the BSA to flock to.

After reading the TLUSA forums it is a conservative Christian scouting program open to everyone (wink, wink) but will only be charted through conservative Christian churches (those that still ban gay ministers and members). TLUSA leaders must believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity and be pure (permitted to have sex only if they are married and only with their biological-correct spouse of the opposite sex). They are essentially the boy version of American Heritage Girls and have even partnered up with AHG.

There is nothing to suggest that Trail Life will automatically become a "mighty whitey club.".

The entire reason Trail Life USA was created was because they are sick of liberalism, multicultralism, political correctness and alternative lifestyles "being shoved down their throats." Who is left after they alienate the Hispanics, African-Americans, Jews, Asians, Mormons, Hindus, Sikhs, and Catholics?

Someone here attended the formation conference. How many non-white, non-Christians were in the room?

NeverAnEagle - Again, that is a Charter Organization (CO) releasing their charter, on a BSA unit, including the unit number.

 

The CO OWNS the unit..

 

If the unit folks want to split from the CO, that is their choice, and can be done. However - if the Co decides that it still wants that BSA unit (just without the dissident members) the CO can hold onto all unit funds, unit equipment, and the unit number, for use by IT'S unit. The CO holds the charter (permission from BSA National to have a BSA unit) - NOT the people, in the unit (including unit leaders or Committee members).

 

At that point, the folks leaving the CO's unit would have to go CO shopping to create a brand new unit from scratch, or go to another, already established, unit.

Use Scoutlike invocations. There are some very neutral ones out there. 1. A SCOUT'S PRAYER

 

Lord, we thank you for this day.

Help us to do our best every day,

And forgive us when we slip.

 

Teach us to be kind to other people

and to help them at all times

Bless our parents and teachers and leaders

and all the members of Scouting

 

Bless us, Lord in your love for us

Help us to be a better Scouts

and let us do our best for you

 

Amen

 

5. A SCOUTER'S PRAYER

 

"Build me a Scout, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory...

 

Build me a Scout whose wishes will not take the place of deeds; a Scout who himself is the

foundation stone of knowledge...

 

Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail...

 

Build me a Scout whose heart will be clear, whose goals will be high. A Scout who will master himself before he seeks to master others, one who will march into the future, yet never forget the past...

 

And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of true wisdom, and the meekness of true strength...

 

Then I, a Scouter who knew him, will dare to whisper, `I have not lived in vain.'"

Trail Life USA is just playing a big joke on societal "political correctness." They say that anyone can join including Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. as long as they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. And gay people can even join as long as nobody ever finds out that they are gay (i.e., stay in the closet).

TL is actually being very clever. They would take a lot of heat and media backlash if they were blunt and said "Christians-only" and "no gays." So by saying "anyone can join" keeps the heat off.

It sounds like you need to build camaraderie in your pack. Here's what I did early on as CC.

1. I found a cub scout mom who was willing to watch 6-8 kids for about 90 minutes. She had a teen age son to help, a ping pong table and a trampoline, which made it easy to watch that number of kids.

2. I held the committee meeting at my house (no kids allowed), supplied a couple of bottles of wine, asked other parents to bring a cheese plate and brownies/cookies. Another parent brought a six-pack of craft beer. Meeting started at 7pm which gave working parents a chance to get home and eat some dinner. We wrapped it up at 8:30pm. 12 parents attended, we got a lot accomplished and all the parents had a great time. In fact, they were asking when the next committee meeting was. It really built fast friendships.

I am well aware of the no alcohol at scouting events rule so I made sure to let the parents know that it was a non-scouting event, no uniforms and no kids.

A good part of the success of the BSA is that historically any boy in America was able to join. But for the last several decades, as America has become more ethnically and culturally diverse and open, some very fundamentalist Christian groups have been trying to exclude more and more people from the BSA. Basically these groups want the BSA to be the same as it was in the 1950s.

I don't see Trail Life USA becoming much more than another fringe scouting group. The BSA casts too large of a shadow.

My point is that the Supreme Court ruled against DOMA in part because they felt that children with gay parents would be stigmatized because their parents would be unable to get married. In that line of thinking, scouts would be stigmatized because their parents will be ineligible to be leaders.

BSA also doesn't want overweight leaders and it probably stigmatizes their kids too.

Considering that the overwhelming majority (~70%) of American adults are overwieght or obese, I don't think there is a stigma for the kids in that regard.

The BSA needs to do a better job communicating their value proposition to the American public. They need to explain why kids' time is better spent in scouting rather than playing sports, playing video games, watching TV, etc. I don't see the BSA doing any advertising on social media, online media, or traditional media. I would like to see the BSA counter the negative media news by touting all the positive aspects of scouting like outdoor adventure, state-of-the-art youth protection, and leadership training.

The NatGeo show "Are You Tougher Than a Boy Scout" is a great way to get kids interested in scouting but there needs to be more along those lines.

By 1991, most of the headlines BSA was grabbing were related to the 3G's. However, in Los Angeles the Council was being audited because a former paid professional alleged membership fraud in the council's inner-city outreach program. BSA National refused to allow an outside audit of the council's rolls and reported that the council had indeed inflated its rolls, but only by about 1,800 youth. Other former paid professionals reported that the actual number was more like 16,000, from a total of 80,000. It should be noted that by 2000, the council reported about 41,000 registered youth.

 

Another former paid professional blew the whistle on another membership scandal in 1994 on the Andrew Jackson Council (Vicksburg, MS). Brian Paul Freese, "wrote in his resignation letter that he had been threatened with termination for refusing to create fake units and pay their registration fees to national headquarters with diverted funds."

"Phil Gee, a Scout volunteer who was among those who blew the whistle on the alleged practices, said local and national Scout audits found 6,000 inactive Scouts on the rolls. The council's numbers were reduced from 14,000 to 8,000 after all the "ghosts" were purged, Mr. Gee said."

 

For the first time that we know of, an independent review of a Council's membership rolls (albeit a small section) was prepared in 1999. The University of North Florida conducted a study for the Jessie Ball duPont Fund, which provided funds to the Northeast Florida Council (Jacksonville, FL) to provide Scouting to youth in public housing projects (the report can be read here.). The Fund gave more than $327,000, over an eight-year period, to the council for this project. Of the 600 scouts the council claimed, the study could only verify less than 100 and only 125 of the 285 adult volunteer leaders claimed.

 

After more than 25 years of public airing of BSA's fraudulent activities it should have come as no surprise to the Circle Ten Council (Dallas, TX), when federal agents raided their offices on the morning of 7 April 2000. This raid started a federal investigation into the Council's fraudulent membership reporting. The investigation resulted in the impanelling of a federal grand jury in 2003 to examine the evidence and hear testimony from government witnesses. As of January 2005, that examination was yet to be concluded.

However, since the raid, the council has revised their membership rolls by -35%, or a reduction of 20,000 youth. The local United Way chapter, "which had steadily increased its contributions over 10 years based on Circle Ten's membership claims, has reduced donations" to the council each year, since 2000.

 

"In Atlanta, independent auditors are investigating claims the metro area´s Boy Scouts inflated black membership numbers to 20,000 to gain more donations. A civil rights leader contends there are no more than 500 blacks actively involved." For more information on this current scandal, click here. At the end of 2004, we learned that the FBI was investigating the Greater Alabama Council (Birmingham, AL) for yet another fraudulent membership scheme. We'll probably read about the council revising their membership numbers in the next couple of months. However, until a paid BSA professional is prosecuted for fraud, there will be no incentive to other paid professionals to just say no to BSA National's insistence on inflating membership figures. Until BSA allows outside and independent audits to be conducted of its membership rolls, the public will have no confidence in the membership figures printed in BSA's Annual Report to Congress .

Just spot checking, here's an article in the Topeka Capital Journal regarding the FBI investigation of the Greater Atlanta Council.. http://cjonline.com/stories/012605/pag_fbi.shtml

Many people are celebrating the Stonewall Riots right now as the beginning of the gay rights movement, but the fact of the matter is that there have been modern concerted attempts going back to the Victorian age.

The book "Toward Stonewall" has large free segments on Google books that cover the Victorian movements, which mostly centered on boy love ("boy" in the Victorian sense means "teenager" in the modern), including Germany's first Scouting movement, the Wandervoegel ("migrating birds"). These Victorian movements focused on the beauty of the young male, and the power of homosexual sex in personal development. The feminist Germaine Greer has also written about this in her book The Beautiful Boy.

Gay Swedish publisher/writer Karl Andersson writes about the whitewashing tactic of the contemporary gay rights movement in his book "Gay Man's Worst Friend." Written from his personal perspective of going from gay publishing hero to zero for daring to break the image we're all being sold, Andersson explains how the contemporary gay rights movement has basically whittled down gay culture for a straight, voting audience to mean nothing more than "just like you, except with another man." Except, he tells us, that's not right at all.

Both are very interesting reads that can be bought cheap.

 

The critical mass we're at isn't really surprising. It's the product of 40 years of carefully managed whitewashing, image control, lobbying, and opposition demonizing (that last point not without plenty of help from oppositional loudmouths) toward a political ends of gay rights. Young people's concept of homosexuality has been shaped by a political machine, and that aptly. The issue is no longer engaging to me, it is (as your lunch crowd agreed) pretty much over.

What will be interesting now is seeing how long it takes for age of consent laws to be weakened and repealed, because at the same time we (as a society) have been learning not to judge people who pick up boys for sex in locker rooms and write Top 40 hits about it, we've ironically become much more conservative about teen sex (or maybe I should have said "wisely" rather than "ironically"--it depends on how much credit you give the average guy.)

For some people, believing that two adult people of the same sex can love each other is crazy. Now that that society is starting to accept gay marriage, the anti-gay people think, "well that is really nuts so there must be some kind of conspiracy in the works." To conspiracy theorists, the crazier the theory, the more rational it is to them.

Many people are celebrating the Stonewall Riots right now as the beginning of the gay rights movement, but the fact of the matter is that there have been modern concerted attempts going back to the Victorian age.

The book "Toward Stonewall" has large free segments on Google books that cover the Victorian movements, which mostly centered on boy love ("boy" in the Victorian sense means "teenager" in the modern), including Germany's first Scouting movement, the Wandervoegel ("migrating birds"). These Victorian movements focused on the beauty of the young male, and the power of homosexual sex in personal development. The feminist Germaine Greer has also written about this in her book The Beautiful Boy.

Gay Swedish publisher/writer Karl Andersson writes about the whitewashing tactic of the contemporary gay rights movement in his book "Gay Man's Worst Friend." Written from his personal perspective of going from gay publishing hero to zero for daring to break the image we're all being sold, Andersson explains how the contemporary gay rights movement has basically whittled down gay culture for a straight, voting audience to mean nothing more than "just like you, except with another man." Except, he tells us, that's not right at all.

Both are very interesting reads that can be bought cheap.

 

The critical mass we're at isn't really surprising. It's the product of 40 years of carefully managed whitewashing, image control, lobbying, and opposition demonizing (that last point not without plenty of help from oppositional loudmouths) toward a political ends of gay rights. Young people's concept of homosexuality has been shaped by a political machine, and that aptly. The issue is no longer engaging to me, it is (as your lunch crowd agreed) pretty much over.

What will be interesting now is seeing how long it takes for age of consent laws to be weakened and repealed, because at the same time we (as a society) have been learning not to judge people who pick up boys for sex in locker rooms and write Top 40 hits about it, we've ironically become much more conservative about teen sex (or maybe I should have said "wisely" rather than "ironically"--it depends on how much credit you give the average guy.)

Personally I am more amused by the conspiracy theory that the Illuminati is promoting homosexuality to lower and limit the world population to a sustainable 500 million. At least this theory has a comic absurdity about it.