David CO

14 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

If National didn't value the local council highly, they could have pushed the liability down to the councils from the beginning.  

Isn't that what they're already doing?  BSA is trying to save their high adventure bases at the expense of local camps.  The local camps are already starting to be sold.

5 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Was it truly the assumption that these were minor "offenses" 

Yes.  At first, back in the 80's, I thought it was just a witch hunt.  I was convinced that the idiots at national invented all this nonsense just to give them a ready excuse to target good scouters.  

I also felt that it was mostly driven by spineless ninnies who simply did not understand the realities of working with boys in a scouting environment.

23 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

At times, even the simplest task is dificult and time-consuming..

I'm a senior citizen.  You don't need to tell me that.

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

This is certain liquidation for open state LCs, since none of the Councils will be released from liability if they don't participate. They are non-parties to the case and only get protection if they "voluntarily" contribute to the Trust.

I'm not sure that national cares if councils are liquidated.  It's a simple process to form a new council.  

1 hour ago, TAHAWK said:

  God has been sued, as has Satan.  

Yeah, but Satan has all the best lawyers.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

what I am taking from all this is that the effort of trying supervise unrelated adults taking unrelated children into the unsupervised out of doors may not, on balance, be a good idea. 

That's where scouting went wrong.  Originally, the idea was that they would all be from the same CO.  They would already know each other.  They would have an established group identity and sense of common purpose.  They wouldn't be totally unrelated people.

Somewhere along the line BSA got away from that.  

2 hours ago, yknot said:

I think it also makes it hard to dismiss a lot of these claims as,  "In 1940, some Scoutmaster touched my leg and I felt weird". I think some people have been scoffing that these claims would not be serious.  

I think it also makes it hard to dismiss a lot of these claims as,  "In 1940, some Scoutmaster touched my leg and I felt weird". I think some people have been scoffing that these claims would not be serious.  

You can say that again.  

29 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Failure to enforce or allowing 67% completion of training leads to that chart.

I disagree.  YPT is stupid.  It has little to do with that chart.  

The part of the recent filings I found most interesting was the paragraph about BSA not revising YPT.  Thousands of kids have been molested since YPT was implemented.  Spot on!  

But YPT is a different topic.

4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Legally aren't these numbers criminal allegations? How many were criminal convictions?

That's a good point.  But BSA could be found liable in a civil suit even if some instances of abuse didn't result in a criminal conviction.  It still effects the bankruptcy.

If you just look at the worst offenses, the type of sins Charlton Heston would throw stone tablets at you for, that alone would be enough to bury BSA.  

31 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

@ThenNow, I deliberately did not post the explicit abuse categories from the Court document on this scout forum.

Yes, that was explicit.  But I also think it provided some important information.  I was expecting to see the bulk of the offenses to be in the lesser categories.  It was the opposite from what I expected.  The worst of the crimes had the highest occurrences.

These scouters are not being targeted for helping boys apply suntan lotion or boosting kids out of the pool.  These are egregious offenses.  I think we should know that.

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

That's highly commendable.

You might not have thought so when you were a kid.  Many people, including kids, thought I was too strict.  My way or the highway.

18 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Sounds like your Unit and CO have a clean record. 

Who knows?  I can't say with any certainty that no former scout will have a claim against my CO.  I have always had that concern in mind (from inception).  I'm not perfect.  All I can say is that I was always preparing for that possibility, and I did my best to prevent it.  

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Let the lawsuits against COs and LCs to proceed.  

For many years, I was accused of being too interfering and heavy handed in exercising my oversight responsibilities of my unit.  My mantra was, The CO owns the unit.  I didn't trust or rely on BSA or the LC to protect my CO.  I feel vindicated.

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

You do understand, without the protection of a release by the abuse survivors they would be the named defendants in the sexual abuse lawsuits, along with the COs/SOs, yes? 

No.  Only those CO's whose units had claims of sexual abuse would be named as defendants.  Not all units would be in that position.  Individual CO's could not be held responsible for nationals actions, or the actions of other units and CO's.

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

All intellectual property is wedded to the congressionally chartered entity or entities. It goes away and they can't "deal" or assign it.

It hasn't been an issue since the congressionally chartered entity is recognized by the WOSM.  If BSA goes away, WOSM should be able to recognize another scout association to represent the USA and assign it the use of all the intellectual property under its control.  

WOSM should also be able to temporarily recognize LC's and CO's while it is trying to establish a new scout association. 

49 minutes ago, MattR said:

These groups want to keep their kids within their group playing with their kids. They are very tight knit.

My in-laws are from a country with a very strong scouting program that has a branch operating in the USA.  Having dual citizenship, the kids and grandkids have been able to sign up in that scouting program instead of, or in addition to, BSA.  It's a heritage thing.  Just because kids aren't signed up in BSA doesn't necessarily mean they aren't involved in scouting.

It's nice having another option if BSA goes belly-up.

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

I assume if the chartering organization ceases to exist, so too the power to grant renewals.

  BSA may have to liquidate all of its assets.  It may even have to fire all of its staff.  But so long as its federal charter still exists, the chartering authority still exists.  

Let's suppose BSA is wiped out and ceases to function.  Zero activity.  No charters renewed.  No charters revoked.  I would say the LC's and CO's could continue operating until they are told otherwise.  Nobody will tell them otherwise.  

Just to be on the safe side, BSA should send out a notice instructing LC's and CO's to continue operating on their outdated charters until national reboots.

17 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Delivered virtually. I do not know if a video is available but here is two page report. 

There is no explanation of membership reduction or mention of the Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

I'm sure it must have just slipped their minds.  

22 hours ago, GiraffeCamp said:

Maybe that camp can no longer have any communal showers since they obviously cannot safely manage that, and the cost of building individual shower houses is on them. Or maybe if they are adamant enough, they don't have summer camp at all any more until they make adequate changes.

I think this is a definite possibility.  Even if camps survive the bankruptcy, they probably won't have the funds to upgrade or repair their more expensive facilities, like swimming pools and locker rooms.  

A swimming pool has a life of about 40 years before it needs replacing or extensive repairs.  Our park district pool was taken out this year and will be replaced with a "splash park" to reduce liability.  The washrooms remain open, but the locker rooms are to be closed permanently.

Our YWCA recently tore out its indoor pool and converted the space for a new day care center.  My school recently closed its 50 year old indoor swimming pool.  No decision has been made on what they plan to do with the space.  My town's new public junior high school doesn't have showers, much less a swimming pool.  The old junior high school building had both.

I am concerned that these modesty issues, high cost of upgrades, and new concerns over transgender rights, will result in the closing of many of our existing facilities.  I wouldn't be surprised if BSA is forced to drop its swimming merit badge requirement as swimming facilities become unavailable.

1 hour ago, GiraffeCamp said:

I follow now.

I don't think you do.  You didn't get any of that stuff from me.  

I think it is interesting that you automatically assume that my father was most influential on my attitude about my body.  Why would you think that?  My mother was a stay-at-home mom with most of the child rearing responsibilities.  She was the athlete of the family.  My dad was too busy working to play sports.  Then he was gone to war.

In grade school and Jr. High, I was taught by nuns.  I didn't have a male gym teacher.  I didn't have any male teachers till high school.

So, if you want to do all that psychological stuff, maybe you should concentrate on the mothers and female teachers.  Why did the WWII era women feel that boys of my generation shouldn't be very modest?

45 minutes ago, GiraffeCamp said:

So I think it is not the times and people that have changed but that we do not have a generation of traumatized fathers responding to the natural vulnerabilities and growth of their kids. 

A generation of traumatized fathers?  Just the opposite.  They didn't need to run off to their therapist over every little disappointment or imagined slight.  They didn't dwell on drama.  They didn't see themselves as the center of the universe.  They earned their grades.  They worked for their paychecks.  They volunteered an incredible amount of time at church and service clubs.  They built good, clean, safe neighborhoods and schools for their children.  They gave me a pretty darn good life.  They're gone now, and I miss them.  God bless 'em.

1 hour ago, GiraffeCamp said:

then or now

It's not the same.  Back then, everybody knew that guys swam nude at the YMCA.  Showers were required.  Swimsuits were not allowed.  If a boy didn't want to shower and swim nude, he shouldn't have joined the Y.   Simple as that.  

1 hour ago, GiraffeCamp said:

• If some version of that happened in your presence, what would go on inside your head? 

I'd be annoyed.  The rules are clearly explained.  If he didn't want to obey the rules, why did he sign up?  Why did his parents sign him up?  

39 minutes ago, GiraffeCamp said:

Others later expressed a systemic culture of coercion

Systemic culture of coercion.   Good grief.   We always thought kids were supposed to do what they were told.