DanKroh

"As you know the "genetic theory" has been discredited, so the environment must be a genuine influence. Or so research suggests."

Not so much actually. Jeff Satinover and NARTH do not a discrediting make. The genetic theory has certainly been found to be much more complex than simple Mendelian genetics, but then again, most traits affecting cognition are.

Actually, the environment that the best *current* theory credits with a great deal of influence is the womb. Yep, lots of homosexual recruiting going on inside those pregnant women. Best find a way to stop that.

Sorry, Mr. Boyce, I don't answer "gotcha" questions.

I was 8 years old in 1973. If you want to know what really happened, ask someone who was actually there. But be prepared to get 11 different versions from 10 different people. I know what I read of current research, as well as what I have learned by empirical evidence. Policy is not science. Policy can be informed by science and well as social pressure. But the use of social pressure (included alleged violence) does not ipso facto invalidate the science. Current research indicates that homosexuality does not have the hallmarks of a mental disorder, as we currently define them. You can believe that future research may prove otherwise, just as I believe it won't; but they are still just beliefs, which carry even less weight than opinion.

The "explanation" of homosexuality you are quoting is outdated and debunked. I suggest finding more current research to read. Try the Journal of Sexuality Research and Social Policy or the Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality; but stay away from Christian-based agenda-driven look-alikes like the Journal of Human Sexuality.

Are there people around who express a messed up childhood as homosexuality when they are really not? Sure, just as there are people who expressed a messed up childhood as heterosexuality when they are really not. So because in a small percentage of the population, heterosexuality is the way a troubled mind behaves, we should label heterosexuality as a "mental disorder", right?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

"Interesting. Quoting a homosexual, no wonder you think that they're "normal.""

He was also a socialist!

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

--George Bernard Shaw

"Unfortunately, most of what people know about homosexuality is sound bite particles coming from television. And much of what television and other popular media understand about homosexuality has been supplied to them by the homosexual propagandists."

The first part is certainly true, and is particularly frustrating to those of us who have spent our professional careers, including actual scientific research, in the field of sexuality and gender. As to the second, is there anyway to be supportive of homosexuality and *not* be labeled a homosexual propagandist? Similar to the misconception that everyone who supports equality for homosexuals is him/herself a homosexual.

"Read the book "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" by Jeffrey Satinover. Your library should be able to fetch this for you."

No need. Have it on the shelf (but glad I didn't actually spend money on it). A fine example of someone who has let his obsession with religion cloud his scientific judgment. Sorry, but Jeff lost most of his credibility among his colleagues when he joined up with the likes of NARTH. I wish him better luck in physics.

"Your hogwash is hogwash. The apologists have tried to convince us for decades that it's "normal" but it isn't."

And ignorant people with no training in psychology/psychiatry who have done no scientific research in the area have tried to convince us for decades that it is a "mental disorder", but it isn't.

Mr. Boyce didn't call it "abnormal", he called it a "complex disorder". In the field of mental health, that has a very specific meaning. So unless he wants to pull out his bona fides and quote some peer reviewed, accredited scientific research to support that, it's hogwash.

Normal, on the other hand, is an opinion totally in the eye of the beholder (or the majority). And we know what they say about opinions....

"homosexuality is a complex disorder and something not to be promoted."

And that's a load of hogwash, right there.

Wow, look what happens when you change just a few words...

The saddest possibility, and unfortunately the most likely, is that this country is idiotic enough to believe homosexual men to sleeping in tents with young boys would be a threat to the boys. If youre in that group, I have no respect for you. More specifically, I have no respect for your ability to think.

We used ClassB.com

I found their site very easy to use, and they had the best selection of styles and stock designs for the best price we could find, for a licensed BSA vendor. They also do custom patches and custom embroidery on shirts and caps.

One of the cool things about being in the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) is that you get to try all sorts of interesting medieval foods. I've had haggis, and I can tell you that the secret is in the seasoning and the steaming. If it's seasoned well and not overcooked (as is the tendency to do), it is actually quite good.

Sorry to hear that the haggis got the better of you, OGE.

Bkale,

Congratulations on the launch of your program. It looks very educational and a lot of fun for the kids. And it's a great service you have provided to develop and administer this program.

I was looking through the electives for the Heritage award, and this one caught my eye:

"Attend a period re-enactment. Describe how your life would be different if you lived during that time."

Seeing as I do *medieval* period re-creation/re-enactment (and know people who do Civil War re-enactment... the English Civil War), you might want to be more specific about what "period" you are looking for. I'm assuming you want something from American history.

My suggestion would be to change the wording to something like: "Attend a historically accurate re-enactment from a period in American history (i.e. colonial, revolutionary war, civil war). Describe how your life would be different if you lived during that time."

Kudos to you for creating this.

I read the books when they first came out. They are excellent. Well written, imaginative, with strong young characters who show that anyone of any age can make a difference if they are true to their convictions and want to help others who are being oppressed by an unjust authority. My older son read and loved them, and I'm sure the younger one will, once he finishes all the Harry Potter books.

My impression of the "bias" of the author was actual more anti-Church (i.e. organized religion and religious authority) rather than anti-religion. I hate to say more about the end of the trilogy and spoil it, but that whole thing was not about destroying "God" so much as a false authority trying to pawn itself of as the absolute moral authority, when it obviously wasn't. I actually rather fancied the final message of, "trust your instincts when it comes to other people trying to regulate morality for you".

But I could see how that would stick in the craw of some.

As far as the movie, it hardly bombed. My only problem with it (as with many movies based on books) is that it took liberties with the original plot, and actually backed way, way off on the anti-authority message. Not as many liberties as "The Seeker", which was barely recognizable even to the original author, Susan Cooper. In this case, I'm actually looking forward to The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass being made into movies.

But I'm not sure what the box office draw of the movie has to do with whether or not to recommend a book that was written 10 years before the movie was made?

Yes, Wiccans (and several other types of Pagans) can be atheists, although it's rare.

I haven't been following this discussion real closely, as I have had other things taking precedence lately.

But I just want to say that nothing, absolutely nothing, will squash a darwinian approach to health care than having a child who would not have seen his 8th birthday without extensive, and expensive, medical intervention.

And nothing will make you appreciate how little is the cost of health care for those who have insurance when you realize that there is absolutely no way you could have paid for that intervention without it.

Son's roommate in the hospital was a boy a couple of years younger than him, from Venezula, who just learned he needed a heart transplant. The mother told me how lucky we were that we had insurance to help pay. She was self-paying for everything. I can't even begin to imagine how much it will cost or how she will pay for it.

The idea that any child would be denied such a thing because of lack of private insurance makes it hard for me not to support government-sponsored health care. If that makes me a bleeding-heart liberal, well, at least I will take comfort in the fact that the organ is actually there and functioning properly.

Thanks, everyone. We had visits yesterday from his Scoutmaster (it was the first day of school for the SPL, so he couldn't make it), and from the CC of my younger son's pack.

The recovery of kids from this kind of stuff is really amazing. One week after open-heart surgery, he was pretty much back to his old self, a little less stamina, but still. Amazing.

Goldwinger, fortunately, pediatric hospitals are quite different from those that specialize in adults. Son had his choice of food delivered by room service with a phone call. Snacks were available from a room down the hall whenever he wanted, however much he wanted. Part of the difference, I'm sure, is that the kids have a built in aide (the parent) to fetch for them. Similarly, the nurses tend to leave the kids alone at night, since with a parent sleeping bedside, and of course, constant cardiac monitoring by telemetry, the nurses don't need to check on them as often.

Ohio_Scouter, best wishes to you for a successful procedure and a speedy recovery.

For those who were thinking of us and sending prayers and good wishes....

My son is home from the hospital after successful heart surgery to repair pulmonary stenosis (narrowing of outlet that carries blood to the lungs for oxygenation). He is doing well, and should not have to have any further surgeries.

His scoutmaster and SPL are coming to visit tomorrow night, the emotional support from the rest of the troop has been invaluable.

Ohio_Scouter & SWScouter, thanks for the good wishes.

SWScouter, I didn't mean to take away from your situation. I'm glad things turned out well for you, and as others have said, it's definitely worth being safe about such things.

Missing summer camp is hard, no doubt about it. Hopefully that will make it all the sweeter for us both next year.

Thanks, Lisabob. The surgery is 8/18. We will be grateful for any and all prayers and good wishes.

No summer camp for us this summer either. First Class son (gee, it feels great to write that) is having heart surgery a week after the troop goes.

Thanks, Gunny.

Unfortunately, Mr. Savage is not alone in his opinion about autism. Several of the adult leaders in my son's first troop had the same idea, if to a lesser degree, that his behaviors were due to "willfulness" or some other character flaw, rather than autism. And that if they publically berated him enough for them, he would change, and not doing so was just more evidence of his willfulness.

We are no longer with that troop.

Since moving to a new troop with a greater level of acceptance and understanding, my son has learned to swim, earned First Class, and actually enjoys going on camping trips again, where he tents with his peers and is encouraged to join into activities that he might not otherwise try.

Mr. Savage, you are right. You have hit it the nail on the head with your recent remarks about autism (http://tiny.cc/4LK7k). My son is really just a brat. I have been remiss in my duties as a father (since I'm obviously not around) for not telling him to stop acting like a moron and a putz. We are really just playing this racket to be parasites on the government. My kid is really just S-T-U-P-I-D. Maybe he belongs in a mental hospital.

Or, you know, NOT. Instead, he could really be a bright, sweet-hearted kid struggling with being on the autism spectrum, and you, sir, could just be an ignorant jerk.

meschen wrote: "This is further complicated by the fact that our council does not accept rank advancement after May 31"

Scoutnut replied: "Why on earth not? When do they start selling rank awards again? Have you considered going to a different Council's Scout Shop? Or, purchasing the rank awards earlier, when your council is still selling them?"

Scoutnut, I believe the issue here is that the Council will not accept the record of the rank advancement after May 31, because, as others have mentioned, National advances the records of registered cubs to the next rank on June 1. Even if the pack doesn't hold their graduation until June 15th, in the eyes of National, the boy has graduated on June 1; therefore, all rank advancement resets on June 1.

Scoutnut also writes: "My Council uses both and always required a filled out (& signed) Advancement Report in order to purchase Rank Awards. What we will usually do is purchase the Rank award for every member of the den at the same time. Then we have it on hand for whenever they finish. If they do not finish, it goes into our badge stock to be used for replacing lost badges."

Ok, I'm confused. If you have to have a signed Advancement Report to purchase the rank badge, how do you purchase rank badges for boys that have not actually finished their rank requriements? Are you fudging your Advancement Reports to record that boys have advanced who haven't actually finished their requirements (so you can purchase the award)? If so, what do you do if a boy doesn't actually finish, but Council then thinks he has?

Please clarify?

Mr. Boyce writes: "I'm surprised to hear the Wiccans have a central authority. You hear so many differing accounts of what Wiccanism is, coming from various Wiccans, that I wasn't sure there was any unity among it all."

Again, the answer is that there is and there isn't. There isn't a central authority recognized by all Wiccans, but we are beginning to realize that in order to get recognition by certain authorities, having a central council to speak for us in one voice is a necessity. It is a difficult process, since there are different sects even within Wicca, not to mention that most of the IRAB (I Read a Book) "Pagans" seem to identify as Wiccan, even though they have not gone through any initiatory rituals. But I do hope that if not CoG, that some other entity will emerge who will be able to go to bat for us in administrative matters.

"It's a new old-fashioned religion; the term "pagan" is so hard to deal with, too, that it seems to mean whatever you want it to mean. Most of the time it refers to English/Anglo druid stuff, but the ancient Greeks and Romans were pagans, the ancient North Africans, too, and of course, the Mongols, Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, etc. Just what's a pagan?"

Pagan is an umbrella term that generally refers to anyone who believes in a polytheistic religion. Within Paganism, there are many, many different religions. Just as Christianity is an umbrella term for anyone who follows a religion that believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ. You do get some Pagans who do not adhere to any specific tradition, but self-identify as Pagans, just as there are self-identified Christians who don't actually adhere to the doctrine of any Christian Church.

The English/Anglo stuff is really just the most widely recognized part of Paganism by non-Pagans. There are traditions from Norse, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Native American (both North and South America), Slavic; really, the list is endless. If it existed historically, you can find people today who are practicing it, even if they are practicing a "recreated" version of it.

Then there are the religions that fit the "qualifications" to be Pagan, but don't self-identify as such, even though they may be put into that category by others. For instance, Hinduism is polytheistic, but generally don't self-identify as "Pagan", although many monotheists would consider them to be "pagan" because they are not one of the Abrahamic (JCI) religions. A strict definition of Paganism and who should or shouldn't be identified as a Pagan is something that is argued about even now. So I can understand the confusion of someone outside when we don't agree on it among ourselves.

ghermanno writes: "Does not matter what religion (with the exception maybe of Satanism). So long as it doesn't promote harm to others, who am I to judge thier religion?"

Actually, Satanism (real Satanism, not what's portrayed in the "movie of the week") doesn't promote harm to others. It just promotes putting oneself and self-interests in front of others. A very selfish religion, yes, but not what most people think it is.

Pack212Scouter writes: "The only problem that I could see with a [W]ic[c]an or [P]agan religious award is that the beliefs within these descriptions are SO diverse."

Well, yes and no. Wicca is the largest of the neo-Pagan movements, so it is not surprising they are one of the first to develop a religious emblem curriculum. However, their curriculum *could* be used for any of the "Earth-centered" religions, which make up about 90% of Paganism. There is nothing in the curriculum that is specific to Wicca.

"If nothing else, probably a good reason for the descibed BSA policy of needing 25 charter organizations. It would be extremely difficult for PRAY to organize a huge diversity such as this (not to mention probably not very cost [ef]fective for them)."

Well, here's a thought. Why not let each religion worry about administering their own programs? CoG seems perfectly happy to administer their own program, they are just asking the BSA to approve it for official uniform wear. The 25 unit rule is just a stumbling block to keep the "undesireables" out.

Or even better, how about the BSA getting out of the business of telling a religion what they can and can't require for their emblem, in order to have it meet with BSA's approval?

"From what I can tell, the requirements for such a religious award in these areas would be so vague as to be almost meaningless. It would be more akin to a "this is my own religion" award."

Well, if you don't know anything about different Pagan religions, I can understand how you might think that.

Hi ghermanno,

The "official" BSA policy on Pagans (including Wiccans) is that we are welcome as members. However, they have gone to some lengths to insure that the Wiccan religious emblems (developed and administered by The Covanent of the Goddess, a nationally recognized Wiccan Council) remain off the list of "BSA approved and recognized" emblems. Sadly, the way they have done this is has been, rather than to address whether the actual content of the curriculum is a problem or not, to create a bogus "25 unit rule", which says that a religion must have be a chartering partner to 25 units to have their emblem even considered for approval.

Officially, Pagan groups requesting to be chartering partners have been turned down time and time again. I believe one coven snuck in under the radar a while ago, but their charter has since either lapsed or been revoked.

Unofficially, Pagan scouts have been kicked out of units, at the unit level, but later reinstated by National when they made a stink about it. Unofficially, the "welcome" to Pagan scouts in the BSA can be less than warm or enthusiastic.

But hey, we are just those "dirty, nasty Pagans" as Kathy Lee Gifford put it on national TV, so unofficially, who cares but us?