GiraffeCamp
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Posts posted by GiraffeCamp
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1 hour ago, MattR said:
Good question! Sleeping bags are worthless where you smash them down. That and the fact that the ground is cold means you'll freeze if you don't have insulation directly under you. So, if you're on an uninsulated blowup mattress you will have very miserable night. Same goes for a cot. You need insulation underneath.
Not sure you'll need it but I put an army surplus wool blanket on the floor of my tent.
Also, I wear a hat to bed. If it gets real cold I make sure my neck is covered as well but that's just me. The sleeping bags that tie up close around my face don't quite work. I move around too much.
The insulation going under the hammock and not between the hammock and person is making perfect sense now. Never considered it but I'm following!
1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:I have a $5 moving blanket from Harbor Freight I put in the floor of the tent. Better than the floor to walk on. Catches anything that does make it inside and I can shake it out. And its at least something between me and the cold ground
Perfect!! I have a little fold-up picnic-style floor mat but can't imagine it gives much insulation. I can afford a $5 second layer. Would it matter which order they're put down in? I'd think moving blanket closest to the ground, thin plastic one above it.
3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:I sleep pretty splayed out, and I roll and move a lot. If I zip up my sleeping bag, it is miserable. I put down two insulated pads, and then lay a fleece blanket over the top of those. The sleeping bag lays opened up, on top. The more loft you can keep in your bag, the warmer it will be. Rolling over in a sleeping bag flattens out the loft. Stretching out in a sleeping bag also stretches your sleeping bag and kills the loft. Basically, an open sleeping bag is like a big comforter.
I'm totally following. What about keeping your body heat trapped inside the bag?
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12 minutes ago, Double Eagle said:
I may have assumed too much but you know how scouters can get long winded. Worst case, get silver plastic exercise suit. That will work for a day.
I am extremely grateful for it. And the baseline of what's normal in cold weather is exactly what I came here to learn. I appreciate it immensely. Thank you!
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28 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
Ready for the next round of tips?
10. Coolers become warmers: If temps are below freezing, do not put ice in your coolers to keep food fresh. Put in full water bottles with water at around 40F in to keep food from freezing overnight. Limit opening the "warmers" and close the lids quickly. We use old 1-liter soft drink bottles. Each patrol gets two. They work out nicely. Wash them out at home, and put in potable water. (Great way to re-use, versus trashing items or wasting money on bags of ice.) In a pinch, if water bottles or jugs are frozen, you can use the water from your "warmers" for cooking.
11. Below about 20F (your taste may vary), do not bother building a fire. Insulation works both ways
I have seen Scouts try to sidle up too close to a fire with all their gear on...they cannot feel the heat, and they wind up burning clothing. If you have to have a fire, any time you approach, open up all your layers so you can feel where a safe distance is. But, when you open those layers, you have just lost all that precious heat you just worked so hard to produce. Whenever we build a fire, it is usually to dry out wet clothing.
12. Shift your menus to more fats, starches, and sugars. Calorie needs almost double. Have some sugary things on hand for a quick warm up. My personal favorite is honey. If I'm feeling a bit cold, I do 20 jumping jacks (don't work up to a sweat!) and then down a tablespoon of honey. Fats and sugars for breakfast, and have a big starchy meal for dinner...think beef stew with potatoes, rice or noodles, and bread. Then, a Snickers bar (or a delicious Dutch oven treat) and top off your fluids before brushing your teeth for bed. You have to keep the old furnace stoked!!
13. Be extra vigilant about hydration. Dehydration degrades your body performance, and can hasten the onset of hypothermia. If you feel thirsty, you are already behind. Everyone is still perspiring, even at cold temps...and you lose a lot of moisture through breathing in the cold...you must replace that fluid. Urine frequency and color is a good indicator of your hydration level. See the chart in First Aid section of your Scout Handbook around page 138.
14. Have a plan for a warm safe haven. If someone starts to succumb to the cold, what are you going to do? If you are car camping, a vehicle works well... you can warm someone up within 20 minutes. If you are further afield, do you have some shelter you can set up quickly to get out of the wind? How quickly can you make a hot cider with the backpacking stove? BTW, if one Scout begins having hypothermia symptoms, chances are some others are pretty close to the same condition. Be wary...
15. If you have snow on the ground, learn to make deadman anchors. Your Fieldbook has a brief discussion. Here is a demo (even though his taut-line is incorrect, and he doesn't show you placement...
) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKBAVvRVwqY&ab_channel=SurvivalCommonSense This also works well in the sand when camping on the beach!! Here's another demo so you can see the principle... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4lDIDpgmdc&ab_channel=CanvasCamp If you have no snow on the ground, putting stakes in frozen ground (and then getting them out) is a challenge.
Enjoy!!
Extremely helpful!! Thank you!!!
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18 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:
I was going to post about this the other day.
I am in Texas and camping in the cold doesnt come up enough to know how to be properly prepared
I remember the first time I learned how to tie a scarf for functional use. It had always been a fashion accessory before that moment. There's a certain level of knowledge that just has to come through experience.
17 hours ago, DuctTape said:Upstate NY here. We camp in subzero regularly. Here are some layering tips.
Baselayer: wool or synthetic, don't overdue this. The purpose is to wuck moisture from the body not be your insulation.
Warm layer: fleece, down, wool. This is a thicker layer with the purpose of providing the majority of your insulation. This should stay dry.
Top/over layer: Purpose is to keep elements away from insulation layer, whether it is wind, rain or snow (or all three). Some use a top layer to keep fire sparks off their insulation layer.
Some add additional layers, but this is the basic idea.
It is likely you have all three layers already. For example, long sleeve synthetic base layer, wool sweater, water resistant coat.
This is very helpful! And hilarious that you assume I likely have a base layer, wool layer, and fleece layer when I have none of those things. My water-resistant coat doesn't even have a hood. 😆 Now I know what to look for and how to assess them. Thank you!
16 hours ago, MattR said:I'll add to @DuctTape.
More thin insulation layers are better than one thick one. The point is to stay dry and just warm enough. You don't want to sweat, otherwise you'll get wet. While synthetics do much better than cotton when wet they don't do as well as dry. The goal is to be "comfortably cool."
You can lose a lot of heat from your head, neck, hands and feet as well as wrists and ankles. So, don't forget hats, mittens, boots and reasonable socks. (And extra socks and mittens for those that get them soaked playing and watch out for snow in your boots.) I also have long mittens, neckies, and gators but I get cold easily.
Don't forget to drink and eat. It's harder to stay warm if you're dehydrated or hungry.
Finally, stay away from the fire unless you're going to stay for a while. It doesn't make sense but your body will crank up its metabolism to generate more heat. If you stand by the fire for a few minutes to warm up then you'll slow your metabolism and feel really cold once you walk away from it. It seems to take a long time to get it going again.
The latest thing I've learned is that since I'm now over 60 my metabolism has really slowed. Cold weather camping is harder.
Have fun for me.
Ah! Super useful info! The food and fire advice is particularly insightful. Thank you!!
I'll be sure to enjoy it while I can!
15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:@DuctTape for National Commissioner!
Spot on...
To help you, your Scout Handbook has a pretty good checklist in the Hiking Section (Brown colored textblock fore edge... did you know your Scout Handbook was color-coded??)
After you read that and gather your gear, go a bit further and check out your Fieldbook, Fifth Editon, Chapter 2, Gearing Up... then follow that with Chapter 18, Cold-Weather Adventuring. If you don't have a Fieldbook, please get one for your edification. https://www.scoutshop.org/2014-bsa-fieldbook-perfect-bound-614985.html
(LOL!!! My spell check just tried to correct that to "deification"...well, that too, if you have half of the adventures in the Fieldbook!!!)
We just got back today from camping in the nor-easter (yes, we camped out this weekend in eastern PA), and used it as a cold-weather training camp. Official low last night was 8F. Wind sustained at 22 mph, with gusts up to about 40. That put us just outside the 30-minute frostbite window on the wind chill chart. (Refer to this chart for your "deification" https://www.weather.gov/safety/cold-wind-chill-chart ) Know where your conditions are going to put you. When we are going into 10 minute territory, FULL SKIN COVERAGE is mandatory!!! No exposed skin, anywhere.)
We had around six inches of snow. And these conditions are nothing compared to what, I'm sure, @DuctTape is used to, but for us lowlanders, it is rare. I taught our Scouts how to build quinzees (see Fieldbook). They had a blast, and were comfortable and cozy inside at around 30F while the wind was howling outside with single digits.
Here are some other cold-weather tips...especially if you are not used to working in cold weather...
1. Avoid overheating!!!! If you break a sweat, STOP! Take off your hat, open up all your layers, and cool off a bit. Damp clothing is hazardous to your health
2. EVERYTHING takes more time in the cold. Plan and set expectations accordingly! If your Scouts are moving so slowly that, by the time they finish breakfast and cleaning, it is time to start lunch, that's OK!!! They are learning...
3. If it is electric/electronic, and you think you need it, keep it warm! Flashlights, smartphones, GPS devices....keep them in a pocket next to your body. Cold temps severely degrade battery performance.
4. If your feet are cold, PUT A HAT ON!!! Lots of Scouts don't want to wear hats. Remember who you are dealing with, and gently correct this error of judgment.
5. Your "sleeping system" is of CRITCAL importance. Have a dedicated set of dry underlayer clothing, specifically for sleeping. DO NOT sleep in the clothes you have been running around in all day. See #1. Use two foam pads beneath you...much of your heat goes into the ground vs into the air. Double up your sleeping bags... do not invest in a 0 degree bag if you won't use it often. Using two sleeping bags rated at around 30, one nested into the other, will do the trick. WARNING! Never breathe inside your sleeping bag. It will put loads of moisture into your sleeping system. See #1. Add a fleece blanket in for extra comfort. Then do #6.
6. Bring two wide-mouth Nalgene-type bottles. Before bed time, boil water and fill your bottles. Put them in your sleeping bag (one at your feet, and one up around your torso) for a great night's rest. And, you'll have liquid water to drink during the night, and liquid water to use for hot drinks in the morning. Can't do much with a water bottle that is frozen solid...
7. Overcome whatever personal aversions you have, and learn to use a pee-bottle. I have a dedicated bottle to pee in, discretely, of course. It is well marked to avoid confusion!!! Put it some place it won't freeze...empty discretely in the morning.
8. FIGHT TO STAY DRY! If you can stay dry, you can stay warm. If you get damp or wet, and don't deal with it immediately, you will have problems.
9. Set an alarm and do a wellness check at about 2 AM. With another adult go around to each Scout, wake them, and ask if their fingers, toes, and nose are warm. If not, take corrective action immediately using all the tips above. I file this in the "due diligence" column. In the best of worlds, I'd like to have the SPL do this, but if a Scout is having issues with the cold and hypothermia, the SPL ain't gonna take the hit...you are.
That's enough for now....lots of other tips and tricks available for cold weather. If you have an appetite for more, post...
P.S. I slept under the stars this weekend in those conditions. Loved it....
Deification it will be from now on! St. Maximos once said, “He who aspires to divine realities willingly allows providence to lead him by principle of wisdom toward the grace of deification. [...] For since God is goodness itself, he heals those who desire it through the principles of wisdom, and through various forms of discipline cures those who are sluggish in virtue.” Seems fitting.
I've got a Fieldbook on your recommendation and will be sure to cover all these resources. Thank you!! I saw one flashlight reviewed consistently bad for cold weather but did not make the connection to all electronics. I'll be sure to have an insulation layer for my cot and will take the rest to heart. I'll probably come back after reading to ask another more educated round as I figure out logistics! Thank you!!
14 hours ago, Rabid said:Look to the cycling community for cold weather gear. Their equipment is designed to be light, easy to put on/remove, and modular so you can build layers and pieces to meet any condition.
Ingenious. And readily accessible around me. Thank you!
13 hours ago, yknot said:This is a lot of great advice and I can't add much. I have not camped out a whole lot in cold weather but I have had to be out in it for long stretches sometimes overnight. Pay attention to your feet. For hiking and warm weather I generally liked snug footwear but in cold weather some room, especially around the toes, keeps you warmer. I'm allergic to wool so I have had to go with fleece but since I will sweat in those I used sock liners as the first layer. I use glove liners as well. I like a hat with a visor because there is nothing worse than not being able to see where you are going in snow or sleet. When you have to be stationary, make sure you have a windbreak. Check out feed and farm stores for working cold weather gear. They are generally cheaper than places like REI or the scout shops and the stuff is often better quality than what you will find at Walmart. I know I just said I was allergic to wool but my favorite ground cover when I did camp was an old school old wool blanke roll. Easier to deal with than the foam pads and a lot warmer.
Ahhh! Perfect. Will do. Thank you!
12 hours ago, qwazse said:Family matters got in the way of camping this weekend.
Agree with the above. Keep in mind that there’s no one-size-fits all. And as our body changes, we need to adjust. Which means we tweak our gear from season to season.
If you’re less mobile, you need more insulation. If you’re more active, you need wicking layers, and enough dry spares … especially for sleeping.
Fantastic reality check. Thank you! I hope your family matters are benefitting from your presence.
17 minutes ago, Double Eagle said:Yup, upstate NY was a great scout stomping grounds for me and my sons. Camp Portaferry near the Watertown area was the bomb. A lot of good info so far. I may have missed it, but don't neglect ground insulation for tents. You can put interlocking foam matting (gym type) inside your tents to add a great deal of insulation while sleeping. You will need to look at the footprint and maybe cut some vs overlapping excess.
The other method I used as a scout in Michigan in the 70s with floorless canvas scout tents was spreading loose bales of straw as an insulation floor. This was pretty cheap and readily available. A few things to note on this method: NO flames in tents! A ground tarp/cloth between the ground and straw may help. Small items can easily be lost in the loose straw. When departing, do a good a sift through the straw for knives and things. A campmaster may direct you how they want the excess straw disposed or reused.
Back to your OP, if you will seldomly camp with those temps, avoid the high price of new wool products. The earlier posts have the best advice for this.
Thank you!! Do you think ground insulation or cot insulation is more important if I'm sleeping on a tall cot? I assumed the latter, treating it kinda like a hammock.
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It looks like I'll be car camping in temps around 10-20F overnight. This will not be a common thing--maybe once every few years at most. I don't want to spend much on something so rare but do want to make sure I actually have what I need. I suspect the underlayers available around me won't touch it, but I have no way of figuring out what is normal. Would you please give me the essentials run-down?
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I think this idea of priorities and money investment is misguided.
People have predictable needs: connection, physical well-being, honesty, play, peace, autonomy, meaning. If those in your community are consistently choosing a sports team, it probably means more of their needs are met there with less effort.
I know sports parents talk regularly about the sense of camaraderie and teamanship, about the active sharing of values, about the positive physical play, about the time hanging on the sidelines bonding with other families.
Cub Scouts, instead, often feels like assisting in a classroom even if the activity takes place outside. There's tedious organizing and arranging, administration, trainings, and then there's no bonding or camaraderie. It's burdensome and doesn't add value in the list of needs. Why would people prioritize doing more of that?
I'd say it doesn't need more business leaders as forward-facing positions like cubmasters, it needs more people like the coaches who are able to lead a "family." Put the businesspeople in the committee supporting the cubmasters and den leaders. Then support the forward-facing people in getting out in their areas of interest and competence so that they can authentically share of themselves so others are happy to hang around and help out because their needs as a family are getting met with ease.
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1 hour ago, ShootingSports said:
Please reach out to me to discuss further. glaacshootingsports @ gmail .com
BSA and Shooting Sports should always be inclusive. I have been advocating and promoting this for years.
I'm happy to do so and want to clarify that my experience is in shooting sports in general; I do not have experience with BSA being any different.
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It is my experience that there are many demographics of people who are hesitant to attend firearms training programs because they believe those programs will be led by someone who will not accept or respect them and their circumstances/motivations/needs. I know from extensive personal experience that this includes women, people of color, those who are not heterosexual or gender-normative, those who have strong liberal political opinions, sometimes those who are either end of the socioeconomic bell curve, and those with disabilities.
It is also my experience that explicitly stating that these people are welcome and included goes a long way toward making that reality true. Then going on to listen to and accept their needs and to not dismiss them but to instead empower and engage them bridges the gap.
For example, women's bodies often require different stances, postures, and equipment. Accepting this and learning what's available, listening to women and what's worked, connecting with those who have more experience and giving them a platform that is not a ghetto or tokenization but an equal footing, takes that intention of inclusion and makes it a reality in an individual and tangible way.
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43 minutes ago, David CO said:
I'd be annoyed. The rules are clearly explained. If he didn't want to obey the rules, why did he sign up? Why did his parents sign him up?
33 minutes ago, David CO said:It's not the same. Back then, everybody knew that guys swam nude at the YMCA. Showers were required. Swimsuits were not allowed. If a boy didn't want to shower and swim nude, he shouldn't have joined the Y. Simple as that.
I follow now.
Back then, most of those boys' dads had been in the military, most probably drafted or signing up under the impending threat, and they had their own profound traumas and little empathy for the discomfort the boys felt over nude showering when they had to face and move through the same discomfort in the context of death and destruction, not recreation. They feared their sons being left behind, beaten up, or ostracized by a culture requiring conformity and thought the pain of shame preferable to the violence that their expressions of vulnerability and individuality could instead bring. The parents, basically, were controlled by cancel culture and the fear their kids were next on the chopping block. I think that is tragic and nothing to hold up as a model.
And I assume the boys who had no such experiences generally found this scenario to be problematic, as so many here express, Skeptic included. I just took a poll of everyone within earshot, giving them no setup except that which was presented here, and 100% of people of a multitude of ages said in some way or another they would sympathize or empathize with that boy and expect to work with him and none could conceive of a reason for annoyance or frustration though much older people did express that they would expect little to no mercy from others back in the day, one sharing how small kindnesses would be arranged in private to avoid their vulnerabilities being known. Another told me of that exact scenario in Boy Scout camp back in the day, with the boy having a similar situation and not joining the others in the shower then a scoutmaster quietly coming and pointing out the need to shower and arranging a time for private showering. It was happening even then.
So I think it is not the times and people that have changed but that we do not have a generation of traumatized fathers responding to the natural vulnerabilities and growth of their kids. One where it is safe to ask why things are the way the are and if there is a way that can meet more needs, no longer hiding this conversation away out of fear of cancellation.
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57 minutes ago, David CO said:
I'm sure he didn't. I never gave the boys any options. Showering was not optional. Just do it.
53 minutes ago, David CO said:Systemic culture of coercion. Good grief. We always thought kids were supposed to do what they were told.
I'm not sure if we're agreeing, disagreeing, or neither.
If a kid told a leader, then or now, that he felt intensely uncomfortable showering in front of others, would you have a problem with that leader troubleshooting to get him to the shower? "I don't care if you go first or last, if you and a buddy take turns holding up a towel for each other, if you shower with your swim shorts on and reach under to get it all clean, whatever you need to do. But it isn't healthy to swim and not shower because you can get rashes and infections, and that would be particularly difficult if you got it in those sensitive spots from not washing them. How can we get you clean?"
- If some version of that happened in your presence, what would go on inside your head? Would your thoughts go to ridicule, shame, coercion, force, or find it ridiculous pandering? Would you not care because your goal is swimming and showering and whatever makes that work is fine?
- Would it change things if the child just took it on himself and used a strategy to accommodate, such as taking turns holding up a towel with a friend, if he actively brought it to the leaders to complain without a suggestion, or if he avoided the issue and was therefore in a situation where the leader had to address it with him?
- Would it change things if you knew that child had identified medical differences, came from a different culture, followed a religion that emphasized modesty, or some other known external reason for the difference?
- And if it would change things, would it make you more inclined to work with the child or more inclined to dismiss it as an unimportant bother that doesn't affect the majority of scouts, so if he wants to be with these scouts then he should adopt their culture and practices?
- Aside from your internal thoughts on the matter mentioned above, what would you externally be inclined to do? To say and act in this situation?
- Would what you say and do directly with the child be different from what you would say and do later in the privacy of conversation with the other leaders? For example, might the boy perceive you as supportive for some reason while you would tell the leaders you thought it was ridiculous? Or vice-versa.
- Do you believe that the youth's conformity and compliance to your direction is a greater priority than the youth acting consistently with his own values such as his sense of modesty and bodily autonomy?
- Do you believe a conversation on trying to meet both obedience and autonomy is always appropriate or that when given a direction, short of profound safety issues, a youth should obey immediately independent of his thoughts, values, culture, and needs?
I'll be happy to answer the same. It will definitely bring clarity to the topic of what we each believe to be core issues and therefore what we would consider "over-reach."
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7 minutes ago, David CO said:
I don't recall him saying he was coerced or shamed into taking showers. He said it was required.
On 3/27/2021 at 2:18 PM, skeptic said:BUT, in order to swim at the Y, we had to use the male locker room, which included all ages and open showers. I remember being a bit intimidated by that, especially when it was crowded with full grown adults. Later, I also was forced to take open stall showers in HS after P.E. It was not an option; and the coach or sometimes an appointed older student would monitor us. Intimidating, and embarrassing? Yep, but we learned to cope. [...]
My point is that where do we mark the lines of demarcation? What is psychological trauma to an 8 year old in with a bunch of older males in a shower? What is the trauma of having your school peers make jokes about you or others and the level of changes in your physical development? Am I really stretching things with the viewpoints we are currently seeing? Comments, or admins decide it is not a valid subject.
1 minute ago, David CO said:This was the problem. It is totally unacceptable and un-scout-like. If I was their teacher/coach/scoutmaster, I would have come down on them like a ton of bricks.
He used the words intimidated, forced, embarrassing, and trauma to describe his experiences of public showering over the course of his pubertal years.
He did not believe he had an option to shower in his swim trunks or to change under a towel, behind a curtain or towel held by a friend, or in a private corner, for example. That might be his own lack of imagination and nothing to do with the overt culture. However, that culture did not educate and empower him to live in accordance with his own values so there is room for improvement even if the showering issue isn't institutional. Others later expressed a systemic culture of coercion on this topic so it does appear to be something widespread that could be improved, passively through architecture and actively through culture.
The issue is 1) was it abusive? Yes, it quite possibly was abusive to deny him his bodily autonomy after he communicated the need. Hiding, shut-down, avoidance, and verbal expression count as communication. Sometimes that communication goes unnoticed which is an education problem lacking attunement and sometimes it is noticed and shamed, telling them to stop it and literally pushing them into the activity, possibly by the adult himself feeling embarrassed and stuck in the face of the culture and his own needs and lack of imagination. If it was only his lack of imagination, that he silently went along with an accepted culture others had no problem with, despite personal convictions to the contrary but no negative consequences for acting on his convictions, it would be tragic but not abusive. If he tried to speak up and was disempowered, shamed, and forced as he reports then it was a problem then and is a problem now that needs healing and a healthy way forward. The fact that it was not the same degree of abuse others endured, and that he did not have the language to consider how this affected him before this point, does not somehow negate the clear trauma he tells us he endured for years and the opportunity he now has to process it and help to provide a better way forward.
2) Does it being abusive mean it should be in the current lawsuits? Not necessarily. There are degrees of neglect and abuse and the lawsuit is addressing an institutional culture that allowed molestation and rape to propagate without sufficient safety and change. If his experience is a part of that, it might find a place there. Not all abuse fits into that category and most does not.
3) Does the fact that it happened with showers or swimming or camps make those places inherently unsafe for sexual integrity? It is worth considering with an open mind with the likelihood being that it was not the place but the culture. However, it might point to opportunities for improvement that would benefit all such as explicitly stating that pre/post swimming showers can be in swim clothes, to have designs which allow for privacy and autonomy in a sustainable fashion (how many of us find shower curtains ripped or missing? a design plan relying on that would probably not be sustainable), and to allow open problem-solving for ways to improve.
4) If people are pointing out traumas, coercions, and abuse and are being ignored for their lack of frequency (it hasn't happened here, but an example would be saying precocious puberty is rare and hardly deserves discussion or change to accommodate with empowerment instead of disempowerment), and the stake holders are resistant to change despite knowing of the problem and the opportunity to improve, then should we draw bigger circles around those places to assure safety? Absolutely. Maybe that camp can no longer have any communal showers since they obviously cannot safely manage that, and the cost of building individual shower houses is on them. Or maybe if they are adamant enough, they don't have summer camp at all any more until they make adequate changes. Least restrictive, but not compromising safety and integrity in any way.
5) If one place has shown an unwillingness to be safe, should all places have a similarly wide circle drawn around them even if they can safely manage with less restrictions? Absolutely not. The need is safety, not policies that hope to proxy it. If they have a track record of safely navigating the issue through a combination of culture, education, architecture, whatever then they don't need onerous restrictions. Administration showing continuing safety is a burden that should be streamlined but is a meaningful necessity that must be included. I believe this is where much of the frustration comes in today with the idea of over-reach. If the issue is intimidation over showering then the need is a culture change on showering, not the blanket removal of all showers.
6) What role does National play in providing, assessing, and maintaining not only the safety but the culture of Scouting? And are they being effective in meting these goals? For example, they place not tenting with parents under Safety and not under Values (independence) in order to set policies around it. That is a poor proxy for safety as it does not protect kids from being abused, it just tries to limit the amount of abuse happening in a place that could cost the organization. And it places a lot of new safety risks on parents (sexual abuser status for tenting with their own child) and on children who are disabled through an inappropriate level of independence/abandonment. Why do they not see this as a Values issue, which could better cover all involved through simultaneously removing abusive adults and empowering children with limitations? Is it because they do not have an active assessment process for maintaining values and culture at the district and unit level? That could be an avenue for improvement that meets everyone's baseline needs. A revamp of Journey to Excellence could be considered. Once the actual issue is being addressed, needs and opportunities become evident without any need for over-reach.
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22 minutes ago, David CO said:
Swimmers were required to shower as a condition to using the YMCA pool. Students showered as a requirement of the physical education class. Setting conditions and requirements is not the same as coercing and shaming.
I completely agree. It isn't the presence of showers, it is the coercion and shaming that is the problem in Skeptic's experience.
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6 hours ago, David CO said:
I would be cautious in using that argument. Some would say exactly the same thing about Boy Scout camping. Though it is common and seemingly benign, rampant abuse has occurred on scout camping trips. It is inherently dangerous to allow boys to go camping.
But my argument is not that a place or occasion has had abuse so should be avoided.
My argument is that his experience of feeling coerced and shamed into exposing his nude body against his will was wrong, no matter the date or context, and that we should not be using coercion and shame to get a child to violate his own healthy values. It doesn't become OK because the context was a shower and a period in time where a lot of people were similarly coerced, and that similarly doesn't make every occasion of nudity abuse, that doesn't mean that all such occasions are equal to sexual abuse, and not being of the same level of violation doesn't mean they aren't unhealthy and abusive procedures just the same.
For example, we no longer have a child sing in front of everyone to get back a lost item, embarrassing kids into keeping up with their stuff. We no longer lob corners off the whittling or totin' chip, shaming them into acting correctly out of fear.
That doesn't mean we stop teaching them to keep up with their own stuff, stop maintaining safety with tools, stop using tools at all... the absence of shame and coercion is not sheltering [edit: or cancel culture], it is the freedom of natural consequences. If a kid is able to handle a tool but needs direction, we give safety direction. If a kid seriously cannot safely manage a tool, we take it away from that kid. Not out of shame, out of safety. And we can be sad with that kid and work with that kid to do what is needed to get to a place where the tool can be handled safely while doing what we have to do for safety.
So if a particular camp has a history of sexual abuse baked in to its processes, I would expect us to work with it to openly address and eliminate the culture and opportunities. And if they could not let the culture go, I would expect us to shut it down. That doesn't mean we're shutting down every camp, that means we're shutting down those that cannot provide a baseline of safety despite education and support. Not safety from risk, safety from identified institutionalized abuse, no matter where that is, whether that is low-level and mundane like shaming kids with executive functioning difficulties, or mid-level like the kinds of coercion in autonomy that have a 77-year-old man relieving the violations of his values, or high-level like the article I linked--it isn't the location or level of abuse but the correction of it that I argue for. And if it honestly cannot be held in a way that is institutionally free of coercion, violation of bodily autonomy, and shame then I would say the natural consequence is no camp until the institution can get its act together. That would be sad but important for safety's sake. Do you believe the BSA or parts of it are currently in that state?
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57 minutes ago, David CO said:
I would have put this into the context of secret societies, weird rituals, and totally inadequate supervision. This is not an account of legal vultures or foolish over-reach.
It seems more like the normative and widespread summer camp experience for a region. I agree that it is definitely not legal vultures or foolish over-reach to condemn it. I believe the same can be said to the original topic: what seems to be overreach can on investigation be clear abuse.
I think that minimizing and normalizing the possibility of abuse from communal showers because of their commonality turns a blind eye, in part, to the rampant abuse some, like those in this article, endured under exactly those conditions and other common and seemingly benign occasions. I see no reason to suspect over-reach because some great percentage of people participated in nude activities. Examples here express those activities made them personally uncomfortable and pressured to conform, which they did with the minimal participation possible, sometimes intensely so to the point of seeking security behind father and brother and a father unwilling to allow his sons to ever face it alone.
He wants to know if this was abusive and I think we would answer yes, even for the time, it was. It consistently violated the central tenants of privacy and autonomy typical to the participants and their cultures and overrode those natural protective instincts through shame, coercion, isolation, and fear. It isn't the nudity but the systemic and coercive shame. So he wonders if he should also sue. And that is an entirely different question because to sue one must have legal standing--has the statute of limitations run out on that offense? it obviously is of a lower rank than rape and special provisions had to be allowed for the latter at this date--and then one must show damages like seeking to recoup lost employment or counseling fees. Sometimes people do come together to sue in such situations not for money but in order to force policy changes which might be legitimate reason and need.
That he would be highly unlikely to have legal standing, and that he would not find much support for pursuing it, does not mean it wasn't harmful or abusive, it just means that the courts are not typically the place that particular offense would be handled at this point. We would instead expect to see institutional changes, like the Hornaday Award's restructuring and renaming. To suggest that our new outlook that seeks to eliminate such toxic coercion is instead somehow overreach is quite sad, particularly in light of this: the Pipestone program continues to run with accolade and honor and no mention of YPT, instead imploring attendees to use the terminology that the activities are not considered initiation or hazing but an honor.
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I cannot help but think of an account I read of abuse swept under the rug in the context of communal nudity and showering. The newspaper article details a system of abuse with examples of grooming, sexual abuse, rape, and suicide. I will quote a small mostly benign-in-context example about communal showering.
A Brave Never Tells: Strange and Erotic Stories from Inside the Boy Scouts' Most Secret Society
QuoteThe "ISH," or Indian Shower House, is a small, secluded facility located up a service road, across from camp. Only those who have completed all five years of Pipestone may enter. Each Friday night in the summer, 100 to 200 men and boys -- some as young as 15 -- visit the ISH to get dressed for the night's ceremonies. They are the volunteers who will scare the [----] out of about 2,500 Boy Scouts over the course of the season.
Until at least the late '90s, Friday night at the ISH would begin with a spaghetti feast. Men would strip naked and sit outside the building eating pasta. Then they would cover their bodies with masonry paint, helping each other out with those hard-to-reach places, before donning loincloths. When women began earning pipestone, this changed a bit. Now, there is a partition, so that you can't see into the shower. A secret is better kept behind high walls.
"I was approached by someone in the shower," says a pipestone holder and ex-staff member of Algonkin, who does not want to be identified. It happened at the end of the night, at about 2 a.m., when everyone was rinsing off paint. "All this red crap was falling off their bodies. It's hard to tell who's who. He used an innuendo. He said, 'Do you need help getting some of the paint out of your ass?' I quickly said no. I was 17." He reported the incident to a staff member, who then alerted Buckeye Council, but no charges were leveled. "The thing is, I can't identify him. I don't want to ruin someone's life."
"Sexual abuse could easily, easily happen, and there's no way to stop that from happening in some situations," says Bleakney, also recalling the practices at the ISH.
"Are we technically in violation of national policy? I can't argue that," concedes Johnson, referring to the shower arrangement. He maintains that there's no cause for alarm, though. "There is never a time when there's a boy alone with one adult."
Asked about the 17-year-old who complained of being propositioned, Johnson says, "I am absolutely, unequivocally unaware of that. There is nothing we take more seriously than youth protection."
If that were true, the Pipestone sweatlodge would never have been built.
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1 hour ago, qwazse said:
Thank you! Looks like I need to plan a road trip to Howland, Ohio before they're sold!
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Are they available for viewing somewhere right now?
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A person's heinous acts does not mean they didn't also perform kindnesses. And a person performing kindnesses does not mean we can trust that person with opportunities to hurt and abuse, especially the vulnerable, especially if the person has a history of such behavior. Kindnesses do not negate hideous abuse.
We were discussing just yesterday the adults in our lives who took us under their wings as children and of how their innocent behaviors would never fly today. A neighbor of mine basically functioned like an aunt and I went on random shopping trips and such all the time.
The difficulty is in having the broadest healthy social circle while keeping it safe for all. Grooming absolutely happens. How do we on the outside tell the difference between that and healthy neighbors BEFORE abuse occurs so we can include one and protect from the other? I understand this thread to be navigating that tightrope, which is a healthy discussion.
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10 hours ago, qwazse said:
Oh yeah, they once visited the editor of the local paper. She took their picture, then they helped her write a caption, and fit it on the page for the next edition.
That would be especially great for recruitment time!
Would that be May or August?
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7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
All online...
You will need to do Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. On my.scouting Training, they are under "Expanded Learning" "Program Safety" While you are there, recommend you go ahead and complete Hazardous Weather training.
Then, please read and comply with applicable sections of Guide to Safe Scouting "Aquatics Safety" section.
https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss02/
Three biggest gotchas: 1. Anyone not classified as a Swimmer must be in a boat with an adult classified as Swimmer. 2. Cub Scouts may not do boating on moving water. 3. Participants must wear a life jacket for all afloat activities, including tubing.
Have a blast!!
7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:If you want to increase your knowledge and skills, check in at your local Scout camp this summer and complete two courses:
Aquatics Supervision: Swimming and Water Rescue - a day or two
Aquatics Supervision: Paddle Craft Safety - a day or two
Next level is BSA Lifeguard... takes a week at a Summer Camp, if offered
Next level is go to National Camp School, Aquatics Director program. Week long intensive course... Lifeguard cert required before starting...
Got it. Thank you! That link answered all my questions. I'll be ready!
3 hours ago, SSScout said:Cub Scout visits/field trips....
Check with the parents. Where do they work? The mention of "Cub Scouts" opens many doors. When I worked for the local bus transit service, the maintenance garage manager welcomed us easily. He said it was a "good excuse to make everybody clean up and put stuff away."
Local Racing Pigeon Club invited us to visit one of their race releases. THAT was exciting, they talked about bird and care and then a hundred plus birds were released.
Trail hikes above mentioned. Work up a scavenger hunt the parents can also get in on. ABSOLUTELY introduce Poison Ivy to everyone..
And remember the Cub Scout Mantra KiS MiF, KiS MiF,,,, Keep it simple, Make it fun.
That's not something I would have ever dreamed existed! How very cool! I'm trying for one den meeting, pack performance, and one activity per month--whether that activity is den or pack. Several months have two pack activities already. Does that sound like the right balance?
18 minutes ago, Momleader said:Our Tigers went to the cable company’s public access station one night - they loved it. Maybe a college nearby has one they can give a tour of. Also planetariums are really cool.
Very cool! I'll look into it!
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Is the Safe Swimming stuff completely online? If I want to do Floats and Boats in September, do I need any in-person training before then?
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10 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
No need for a PM...
The Scout Strong awards were retired on 31 Dec 2020. My guess is due to lack of popularity...
But, as with any retired award, you may give them out as long as you can find a source for the patches. They are still for sale...
https://www.scoutshop.org/nsearch/?q=ScoutStrong
These will probably show in Scoutbook for several more years, but that's a guess.
I pitched these to our Patrol Leaders Council for program, and they were, "No, thanks!" There is so much other program material to do...
As you are picking a program for Lions and Tigers (and Bears, oh, my!! Sorry...that slipped), you'd have to really work to put it on their level.
If you choose to do one, recommend the Healthy Unit Award option...
Happy Hunting
Thanks! Makes sense.
I was just going through what can be automatically checked off and Healthy Unit was exactly what looked doable if we're already doing healthy snacks, water, and physical activity anyway then might as well give a patch for it.
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26 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
Absolutely! The adults with our Troop have just as much fun as the Scouts!
Who doesn't love crossing the monkey bridge, fishing, swimming in the river, or acting silly at a campfire?
Gotta be a Scout at heart
24 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:BTW, busts are anything where someone just talks or reads from a book...
"A boy is not a sitting-down animal." BP
YES!!! That's the whole reason we are in scouting and not in some sort of academic enrichment program. We need experiential and social learning!
I've seen conflicting things on SCOUTStrong/Healthy Unit--do you know if that's still going? If I should be checking those off and giving out an award or if it is no longer active? I saw online it is over but the official site doesn't say anything.
I think I have a rough sketch of meeting and activity. Would you mind me sending a PM with it for criticism or encouragement?
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3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
- Local wildlife rehabilitation center (if they allow visitors, this is an awesome trip where young Scouts get to see native wildlife.)
- Planetarium
- Anything with dinosaurs...I mean, anything!
- Local "commercial" cave
- Local quarry
- A farm (with animals, big machines, and something they can pick and eat)
- Playing in a mud puddle!!! (You know you'd love it, too.
)
Forget the kids, can we just have adult meeting with you planning? 😁
Cold weather clothing/base layer/gear necessities
in Equipment Reviews & Discussions
Posted
Thanks! I've always opened it up like that when I'm too hot or sharing on an air mattress, but I've sometimes been too cold that way. It's hard to tell if that was from another person pulling the covers off or my own moving around. I think it will be different on a cot! And the extra laying over the side will probably function quite well at trapping in heat.
I think based on my own experience, the two-bag method is what I'll try first. I don't move much when cold and on the cot. Insulating the bottom is probably my biggest opportunity for improvement. I'll take a moving blanket for that. I'm feeling much more prepared to go with the flow.
This brings up a great topic! On my last chilly (cold to me) campout, I put my jacket over the summer-weight sleeping bag, over my feet. Now I know how to warm up my feet from the posts here but I'm wondering if the jacket would generally be more useful on top of the sleeping bag, as a layer inside it, or worn.
Ingenious! This is the kind of thing you only learn from people who've lived it. Thank you!!
I will take all of these to heart. Thank you!!
This is extremely helpful! Thank you!!