ThenNow

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I agree with that ... in my mind I was thinking civil.  There is no SOL for murder and there shouldn't be one for child sex abuse in terms of criminal charges.

Although I would personally appreciate having a go at my abuser in criminal court, which would require a window, I know the burden on law enforcement, the state(s) to defend and the court system overall would be crushingly expensive if deluged with these cases. I have less problem with civil windows, though courts are impacted, partly because the other governmental players are not tapped or taxed as with criminal cases.

54 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

My understanding is that in 1978 and prior, BSA had its HQ in New York and New Jersey.  Both states have updated their SOL. So, for any abuse nationally, 1978 and prior, lawsuits against National could pursue. Post 1978 it would likely then go per state law.   Now there are 30+ states with their own SOL changes.  

Now the question is, since BSA is declaring bankruptcy, did they give up the right to defend against abuse after 1978 and outside the current state’s SOL?  Is that the 57,000 reference?

I have not heard this. I don't think it's accurate, but I will ask. If so, I would think the number of cases in NY and NJ would have really exploded when they opened. If you're right, I could've sued in one of those two jurisdictions, prior to filing. Another inquiry for me to pursue. If that is true, every one of us with a pre-1978 claim which is a bunch, has a stronger claim and cannot be flagged as time-barred in the bankruptcy. Hm...

I previously posted another of these from CHILD USA showing pending legislation and the like. This shows the changes.

18 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If you were raped at 11 it may take until your 30s to really seek justice and that should be allowed.

My first abuse was on my 11th birthday. The last just just before turning 17. I woke up to it all when I was 42. At the time, other boys/men in our Troop who had been abused by the same SM were identified by the Sheriff's Dept. lead investigator . They were in their 30's, but unwilling to talk about it much beyond acknowledgement and refused to prosecute. Not ready to countenance the whole experience and repercussions of coming forward. They could have initiated, as not time-barred, but they couldn't bring themselves to act. I understood.

17 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Is that the 57,000 reference?

The number includes claims that would have been barred against civil suit in state court on 2.18.2020. Those were the non-starter cases for which the Chapter 11 was the court of last resort, unless/until SoL reform happened in the given state. No SoL's have changed, to my knowledge, over the past year so that would be the same today. As claims are logged, they flag the abuse dates, how much time has passed and the applicable SoL in the state(s) of abuse. That's my understanding how the number is derived.

4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I thought I wouldn't be surprised anymore by this.  

I may misunderstand how this is going to work (ya think?), but it seems ParkMan implied the BSA would pay each man regardless of time-bar. I take that from his statement, "...you are not in the category of people who will receive insurance payments." This could be me reading between the lines, again, which has proven a bad idea. I will ask someone who may know.

Yeah. The number is huge. If, however, everyone will get something from the BSA, with $6100 as a baseline, some men will be very grateful. I think of the guys in prison, jobless, in need of medical care, and, etc. 

Opps. I guess this was deleted. 

1804815587_RCCofNewMexicoClaimPointsSys.pdf

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

You're in the category of people who will not receive insurance payments because you are outside of the SOL window.

You are frustrated because the BSA raised your expectations by saying you should file a claim as part of this bankruptcy process anyways.  If the BSA had not said you should file a claim, you would not have been able to sue and so wouldn't have entered into this otherwise.  I follow now.

You're right. I am frustrated, as it's defined. What I feel is very different, but you have no responsibility to relate or empathize. I can't expect that from you or anyone.

With no previous familiarity in bankruptcy, I had no idea there was going to be a distinction between the money sources. I imagine I'm like the many guys who came in independently or through the "mining" process. If that weren't so, we wouldn't have 59,000 time-barred and 24,000 from open and window states, before more winnowing for fraud and whatever. Right? Those who came in with state counsel prep and teed up claims knew what they were doing. Again, I was ignorant and naive, taking the representations at face value. Though trained as a lawyer, emotions of this type are a powerful thing and allowed me to foolishly assume more than I should have. If you ask anyone in the public who's uninitiated, they have no idea there is a difference between money from the BSA, LC's, CO's or insurers. It's all about, "What is the BSA giving survivors of abuse?"   

3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

then a settlement or bankruptcy trustee can work backwards to figure out how much each claimant gets.

If you haven't seen something like the doc below and you want to better understand the sexual abuse claim assessment and valuation process, check it out. Even if there is winnowing for fraud, unethical behavior, insufficiency of identifying data, and etc., or the application of a time-bar should any of that happen prior to the Settlement Trust, the process of assessing claims remains. I assume the metric in this case will be somewhat similar, but that's nothing more than a guess. 

I almost said, "I am Pessimist, hear me whine," but resisted the temptation. 

20 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Lol..

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=optomist

I am Pessimist and that's all I need to know how to spell. 

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

But until we know one or the other number, "equitable" is just guess work.

Yup. Reading you 5 by 5. 

I think what I'm failing to communicate is that 59,837 men probably should never have been offered an opportunity to file unless there were caveats. I can only really speak for myself, of course. I'm an inadequate Demosthenese warning of the depth of pain that may be coming for many, if turned away or sent away with a token. I understand that may seem out of reach and/or exaggerated. I am just unable to articulate it without getting extremely morose and graphic.

The insurers are coming for every one of those time-barred claims, regardless 60,000, 6000 or 600. That's what I'm saying. I should've known better. Will I take $6100 if that's offered as my "equitable compensation"? I'd be lying if I said I'm going to shred the check. Will it feel like a pat on the head and your aptly dubbed, "I'm sorry" get out of jail card? Yes. In the meantime, am I twisting on a spit? You guys can fill in that answer at this point. 

Oops. Another reference. That was historic, though, so doesn't break my vow. 

30 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

We're not as far apart as you probably think.  I worry both about the victims of abuse and also the future of the program.  So I'm going to look for a solution that allows both to occur. 

You and I have been down the money path before - I appreciate that you don't like the amount.  Your definition of equitable is your definition.  I'm happy for the BSA to find you more money, but we just have to keep the program alive.  If that means we sell Summit & Northern Tier, that's fine by me.  Similarly if we combine smaller councils together and see some camps along the way - that's fine too.  

I just want to see each side willing to come to the table.  We don't need this to be legal equivalent of mutually assured destruction.

You are, after all, "Optimist."  

Equitable means "just, fair and reasonable." As others have articulated far better than this necessarily biased participant, what was put forward seems to fall a mighty bit short of that bar. I defer to them. Yes, it is subjective, but I am not imposing my "definition." Fair, just and reasonable is about context, which includes damage on one side and assets, ability and willingness on the other. How that shakes out, I can't say. On this topic, I got no table and got no way no how to approach the feast set before others. I'm sitting at my desk in the corner watching the world go by, tilting at windmills in my mind. Maybe better, "letting the days go by...after the money's gone. Same as it ever was..."

I promise to stop the dark imagery from literary and pop music references now. Well, I promise to try.

27 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Is this another $11M legal fee for the BSA?

If it's being presented to the court for approval, I believe it must be. I'm not sure if anyone here has a running list, but there are a slew of consultants on top of the legal teams who were hired on various fronts including insurance counsel, property and asset valuation, forensic accounting...  

26 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

Stang's firm has promised to contribute 10% of their revenue from this case to the trust fund for victims.

Gross or net? If the latter, who gets to set the definitions and accounting method?

29 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

And you'll get money here.  They said they had some money to pay claimants with and invited all those who wanted a part to come forward.  I don't see how any of this is false hope from the BSA. 

I can "get money" standing on the corner with a sign. As with other issues, you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this one. Eye to elbow, maybe [he said completely in jest]. Again, "equitably compensate all victims of past abuse in Scouting." Come and get it. $6100 ain't equitable. Add to it, 59,837 claims are on the block marked "SOL." We block heads aren't going to vote for this Plan, a manicured modification of it or for getting vertically reduced by 13". End game? Liquidation. End result? Zippo. 

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

I think you got sold a false bill of goods.

Yes, amen, praise the Lord and pass the biscuits. (Again, to be clear, the only reason I'm here is I responded to the public invitations and inducement from the BSA. The impetus wasn't self generated and didn't come from an attorney ad, therapist, family member, CHILD USA, person of influence or otherwise. I am a freewill agent and used that agency to take up hope and respond by filing a claim. 100% my bad. It's on me. I should've known better.)

7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

You are caught in the middle.  

Quite to contrary, I/we are lubing grinding gears in which we are stuck like so much meat being ground up to be spit out the exit tube. In this particular category, "I/we" are the SOL guys who got no SoL relief and, therefore, can't get no satisfaction. 'Cause you see I'm a losing streak. Hey, hey, hey. That's what I say...  

15 hours ago, elitts said:

The fact of the matter is, for as much as some states really need/needed to expand their SoL laws (places where you only had to age 21) These unlimited look-back periods are truly horrible public policy.  The ONLY purpose for them is to allow people to file class action suits where there is zero intention to actually litigate a claim in court because in the vast majority of cases, a plaintiff filing a claim on something from 20-60 years ago would ever be able to prove the claim in court.

Again, personal and anecdotal, but my thoughts for what they're worth.

I never wanted or even thought about suing the BSA or our church for the abuse I suffered. I wanted at the perpetrator. I started in 2003 and was already too late. I see your point about the runaway train that these look-back windows can (and do) create. I get it. For me, I would have been perfectly happy going after him in criminal and civl court. I say, lift all child sexual abuse SoL's against perpetrators and direct accomplices. I could prove that case, in part by expanding to include other victim/witnesses. Case One: Sexual predator goes to jail for a very long time, possibly some of those complicit for a few years as gravy. Case Two: He loses his house, boat and assets, plus we get a few coin from his homeowners policy, since some of my repeated abuse occurred there and his wife knew about it.  

In this case, we see not only the runaway train of legal fees, enhancing the wealth of the attorneys, but the residual damage and revisited trauma for survivors who came out of hiding to file claims. Like me, they were promised "equitable compensation." Vague as that is, it was a tremendous banner of hope, and will soon end up with precious little for their genuine grief. False hope, I'm afraid. I'm only in this position, in this case and on this forum because I was invited by misters Mosby and Turley.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

FYI

Representation Examples:

• Tort litigants' committees in the chapter 11 cases of  the Catholic Diocese of Spokane (Washington) and the Diocese of Davenport (Iowa); creditors' committees in the chapter 11 cases of the Roman Catholic Bishop of San Diego, the Catholic Diocese of Fairbanks (Alaska), the Catholic Diocese of Wilmington (Delaware), the Society of Jesus, Oregon Province, the related cases of The Christian Brothers of Ireland, Inc. and The Christian Brothers Institute, the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, the Roman Catholic Church of the Diocese of Gallup (New Mexico), the Roman Catholic Bishop of Helena (Montana), the Roman Catholic Bishop of Stockton (California), the Roman Catholic Bishop of Great Falls (Montana), the Roman Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe (New Mexico), the Diocese of Rochester (New York), the Diocese of Buffalo (New York), the Roman Catholic Church for the Archdiocese of New Orleans
• Creditors' committee in Weinstein Company Holdings
• Abuse survivors' committees in USA Gymnastics, Boy Scouts of America
• Subcommittee of employee organizations in Orange County chapter 9 case
• Chapter 11 debtors in American Suzuki Motor Corporation; Gateway Educational Products (manufacturer of "Hooked on Phonics"); American Tissue; Chippendales; Inacom Corporation; Rhodes Homes; Sizzler Restaurants International; Superior TeleCom
• Bankruptcy counsel for the Tobacco Committee of the National Association of Attorneys General
• Receiver appointed for various car dealerships (Nissan, Porsche, Audi, Toyota)

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

When people talk of the 40% of any settlement going to lawyers, they are not even including these fees.  Since BSA is paying these directly + their own legal fees + 40% of the settlement ... I can only imagine lawyers are likely getting 50% of the available assets of the Boy Scouts of America.  

If the case is broken down to BSA and its affiliates, survivor claimants and attorneys/law firms, the preponderance of the "benefit," particularly financial reward, will go to Team Three on BSA Bankruptcy Survivor Island. I've discovered that cases like this one, and big law bankruptcy specifically, is a very small world. Only two firms were in Delaware to interview before the TCC for the role of counsel. Two. Cases like this are the best advertising imaginable and the promo is not merely free, but you get paid when the ads run. In a transactional case like this with forced compromise, you don't even have to "win." I'm not casting aspersions on these firms or attorneys, just stating facts. 

As to negative impact or repercussions, as much as I imagine most here will say it is the program for current and future Scouts, I say it is the survivor claimants, many of whom will get little or nothing. For me, this has been a literal near death experience. And, it's no where near at the denouement. Regarding National, I don't see this being particularly painful for "them," after hearing your stories and the reports from the field, as it were.

35 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

What surprised me is an hourly billing rate for lawyers of $1,195.  Paralegals billing at $425.  Is that typical?

2018 Snapshot:

Here are the median fees according to the type of case:

• Administrative $813
• Bankruptcy $1,200
• Collections $450
• Contracts $600
• Corporate $800
• Criminal $750
• Elder Law $788
• Family Law $1,538
• Immigration $950
• Juvenile $538
• Real Estate $535
• Small Claims $478
• Traffic $300
• Wills & Estates $750

8 hours ago, yknot said:

I don't think that's true. Otherwise we'd have 150,000 claims filed. Claims dropped once the BSA started putting YP measures in place although certainly plenty of abuse cases still occurred. 

I imagine a lot of you guys are or grew up hunting. Sexual predators are called "predators" for a reason. As prey, I now understand this extremely well, both by examining my experience and through study. Hunters hunt prey. The chose a type of prey and obsess over it. They create environments, food plots, access points, stands and blinds. They gather the right equipment to attract and bag that specific prey and use masking devices, clothing and scents to hide who they really are so as not to scare off the target. They have charts, tracking data, know the terrain, watch the population, the movement patterns and all of the above and on and on. Some of them, maybe most, don't even know they're doing it, like any other predator. It is or was or became hardwired. (I'll avoid wrestling around with that Gordian Knot.)

Anyway, I believe any deterrent is of benefit. Maybe not a penultimate or optimal benefit, but some is better than none. I hope it can be made better and eagerly await the YPT effectiveness data I understand is coming out soon.

One last note. In reading many accounts of men who were sexually abused as Scouts, the similarity of grooming techniques, contexts, methodologies of isolating victims and even the language used by abusers across a good number of accounts is eerily consistent. Some of them were my story almost to the letter, give or take. As I took in the data and considered it, I told an attorney friend who represents claimants in this case that there has to be some measure of collusion, cooperation and/or sharing of information among predators. The stories read like the abusers have a manual. It's chilling...

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Just saw a document for the TCC fees.  December 1 through Dec 30 ... 1 month.  Total fees, paid out of BSA's funds, $850K.  Nearly $1M a month for the TCC lawyers.  

Kosnoff is posting their info on Twitter as he is calling the lead lawyer of the TCC #mrCashIN.  It appears he believes their goal is to simply extend the bankruptcy indefinitely as they make $1M a month in fees.  This is regardless of a settlement results.

Now he is pushing for liquidation of National to remove any protection of LCs where he believes the big $ is.

This whole thing is sad .... its time for the Judge to start making some decisions.  Sounds like April could be a major month.

I think TCC counsel was taken completely by surprise when the claim numbers skyrocketed. It is a complex case, no doubt. Other than those who assert that "each BSA sexual predator likely abused an average of 100 victims," no one I know expected this. I believe that rough average has some "lifetime of a sexual predator" research backing it up, but extrapolating it across every application and context is scientifically and statistically disingenuous. 

He who shall not be named noted this 100x potential in press conferences back when, particularly at the presser launching AIS. HWSNBN clearly intended to create this choke point in the case. I honestly don't know if it was purely to control the case and max out the 40% bank run or ensure he could crash it. In so doing, the crew of hedge fund aggregating miners have ensured the attorneys billing the Estate hourly can take the case to the bank. Sad definitely sums it up. As I said above, I watch those monthly applications for fees and expenses and shake my head. They faithfully roll across the docket straight to the accountant stroking checks like so much confetti flying around a ticker-tape parade.

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Now he is pushing for liquidation of National to remove any protection of LCs where he believes the big $ is.

Depending on how policies are written - insured/additional named insured, per occurrence/claims made, and etc. - liquidation and leaving the LC's to fend off suits may or may not be a great thing for plaintiff's attorneys. Do all policies stand and delivery after the principal insured is liquidated? Granted, some LC's have big coin and property assets, so that may be plenty, but if the number of survivor plaintiffs is too high, it's likely to be a race to the trough. 

2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

If the claimants want the Summit I think most Scouters would be happy to give it up to settle this.  How about:

• claimants get: the Summit and Northern Tier
• scouts keep: Philmont and Sea Base.

Ha! I have no influence whatsoever. You guys contact your representatives and use your muscle. Another, “HA!” am I correct?

4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

"Two West Virginia entities account for more than half of the Boy Scouts’ restricted assets."

Well written article

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/summit-bechtel-state-chartered-nonprofit-play-roles-in-boy-scouts-bankruptcy-case/article_7e36f599-ac41-51dc-9f36-badfbe4cc094.html

This is the mirror image of an Asset Protection Trust, with the same result. I contend they are, in fact, asset shielding creatures of the state to protect them from creditors masked as maintenance and funding shells. The lease-back and closely held board control, by essentially the same principals of the related lessee entity, are identical.

"Arrow WV Inc., in fact, owns the Summit Bechtel Reserve and leases it to the Boy Scouts, according to bankruptcy filings. It was incorporated in Fayette County in June 2009, according to the West Virginia Secretary of State’s office. Texas equity investor Jack D. Furst, who led the Boy Scouts task force chosen to identify a permanent National Jamboree site, is listed as president; current Scouts President and CEO Roger Mosby, vice president; and Charleston attorney and current Scouts general counsel Steve McGowan, secretary."