ThenNow

The Sexual Abuse Survivor Proof of Claim Form, at Sec. 4, Sub P H requests, in pertinent part, the "name and location of the organization that hosted meetings of your Scouting unit, during the time of the sexual abuse." Although it includes a caveat that the CO's, "are not currently parties to the bankruptcy," the question wouldn't be in the POC if there was anything other than the intention to pursue them in the same manner as the LC's. The LC's liability/involvement in the bankruptcy is similarly caveated. 

I realize you are aware of this, but I think the need to defend against asserted culpability and/or contribute to the yet to established Victims' Compensation Trust is coming. The Methodist Church is clearly braced for it. CO's that are oblivious and believe they are only tangentially a part of Scouting will be caught unaware and unprotected. Further, if national is a shell of its former self, including depleted of assets, preemptive claims against the BSA won't mean much. In states where the SL's are lifted or subject to a look back window, the CO's will now be more clearly a target, as they have raised their heads to seek defense by the BSA. Effectively, they have self-identified as parties to the abuse, targets and viable sources of recovery and awards.

Again, just my shiny nickel. I'm too verbose for that to qualify as two cents.  

10 minutes ago, David CO said:

We're scouters.  We thrive on useless information.

Ha! I needed that!

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

134 sets of attorneys listed as "Counsel to"

Yup. I watch the payment requests appear on the docket like clockwork. 

I know both can be flawed, ill-motivated and driven by sweeping 'cattle drive' campaigns for any and all possible claims, valid or not, but this highlights some of the procedural  advantages of class actions over mass tort bankruptcies. For example: one class representative for the entire class, putative or certified; a certification process within which a class of "similarly situated" proposed plaintiffs must be at least facially vetted and blessed by the court; one set of attorneys bringing the case; and one team negotiating the settlement on behalf of the class. Contrary to popular belief, the plaintiffs don't always receive the same award. Also, by the by, "similarly situation" doesn't equate to of equal value. It's about how the claim arose and on what basis they were damaged or disadvantaged by the actions/inactions of the defendant(s). Just some more useless information one may or may not care to know. 

33 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Sorry, I misspoke. Regardless of the technical detail, your deciding whether or not to put your name in as a claimant is not an easy thing to do, let alone describe the decision process and your concerns about how this pans out.

I have no opinion on what you decide, and am in no position to sway your choice. Yes, since grade school (about the time that Mamma warned me that these things do happen and I must oppose them), I have had to deal with this from every angle. Fortunately, the scouting adults who I knew as a youth were defenders from - not perpetrators of - abuse. And, when my boys and daughter joined scouting, that tradition continued. Sadly, for some of my peers and youth I know now, I could not say that about other areas of life.

Gotcha. Thank you. Truly. I’m not a piteous person nor someone who enjoys being an attorney on many days, watching the negative stereotype being solidified in the minds of many. I’ll drone and repeat myself to say that I believe tort reform is so overdue and simultaneously unlikely that I have a pit in my stomach watching what goes on. It’s atrocious. I say that even though my father died of cancer at 63, likely due to years of exposure to toxic chemicals.  

As to filing a claim in this case, I’ll offer some context. I had been waiting to have some avenue of recourse since after my breakdown in 2001. I pursued all legal angles and, although other abused men were found, vetted and contacted by law enforcement, none were willing to come forward. Each are about 7-10 years younger than I am and live in or near our hometown. I completely understood. For what it’s worth, it never crossed my mind to pursue the BSA, our Local Council or Chartering Organization. Not once. I still have: all my medals; merit badge and OA sashes; pocket patches; neckerchiefs; first draft Eagle Application; some merit badge and rank cards; the panoramic photo of my Vigil honor cohorts and I when we received our new sashes; Summer Camp, Cub Days Staff patches and such; excursion and wilderness patches; my grandfather‘s, father’s and uncle’s Scout knives, along with mine; as well as my dad’s and my Cub and Boy Scout Handbooks. I got rid of that bloody deep sea diver skill award belt, however. All I wanted was a chance to put him in jail. A civil remedy was secondary, at best. The filing on February 18 of this year was the open window and, more than likely, the one and only redress I will ever have. As others have stated and I repeated, I hate that he is not in the mix to stand account for his crimes.

Further, again for general gee whiz, I am not represented in this matter, potentially to my financial detriment. I wanted this to be my fight on behalf of my wife and kids, far more than mine. My ‘weapons’ are admittedly blunted and I frustrated and stymied, standing outside the process peering in. As I watch and see what has come of it, the tens of millions of dollars flying out of the door for attorneys multiple times a month, it exacerbates the pain and familiar feelings of powerlessness and being ‘abused’. That may not be relevant or experiential understandable to some, but that’s where I am. I shouldn’t suggest that some of the claims are unfounded, specious or truly contrived, but that’s also the way I feel.

I appreciate you guys allowing me to be a part of this. If anyone judges me for what I’m doing, I don’t have a problem with that. None. It may be hurtful, but as my grandpa liked to say, I’m pretty much “touch as a two-dollar steak.”

1 minute ago, qwazse said:I’d say yours is the first here to articulate a decision to join a massive class action. I appreciate your weighing the pros and cons.

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying you would appreciate it if I did or appreciate that I have? Before I address the assertion that I made a “decision to join a massive class action,” which this is not, I’d like to be clear. Thank you. 

Side note: Is it truly the case that most of the prolific posters here have a close connection to someone who was sexually abused as a child and/or an accused child sexual abuser? I’m surprised, but that means a lot to me, knowing there is that foundation balancing everyone’s perspective. 
 

6 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

There is not an easy answer.

Well said. A wiser, more pithy distillation would be very difficult to find. 

6 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

What is the counterweight of nine-figure political contributions, unequally spread about the political landscape?

 

 

 

 

 

Is this the question?

I wish them well and pray they have less of a ‘body of evidence’ than I and many others do. I’m sure you’re of great support and comfort to them. 

3 hours ago, David CO said:

There is an obvious difference between murder and "soul murder".  There is usually proof that a murder actually took place.  We have a body. 

 

I understand your point, temporally. I wonder if you know someone well who was repeatedly sexually abused as a child and told no one for 10, 20, 30 or 40 years. If you knew me, for example, I assure you, you’d see a “body.” There’s enough evidence and wreckage, as I said previously, to render a speedy verdict.  

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

A lot of that has to do with your age at the time.  Memories are often vague or clouded for experience under 10 years old.  Definitely more clouded / vague the younger you are.

 

Excellent point as to details of abuse. As to the surrounding facts to establish, timeframe, place and actors, I would still think these elements would be known or discoverable, based on where the claimant lived, the location of the local Troop, and the Troop and LC rolls. Hopefully, someone will at least perform that level of due diligence. 

Gotcha! Not a worry. I didn’t mean to be abrupt. 

6 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

...details of facts fade over time.   

This is an excellent point and, begs another comment. As a survivor, I don't quite understand how someone could remember little or nothing about their abuse/abuser to a degree that they can't provide sufficient detail to allow it to be even limitedly corroborated. I understand it theoretically from the standpoint of repressed, suppressed and faded memories. Personally and experientially, not much is faded or foggy or cloudy or forgotten. 

3 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

That is only because the perpetrators are not being sued themselves. 

Well, they are in some cases. I'm not sure what you mean. The Chapter 11 is unique because it allows any and all claimant who allege abuse against an adult Scouting volunteer to file, regardless state law or statutes of limitations. That's the focus of this case. I'm not in the weeds on individual cases, but if I have the chance, I will certainly sue him, others, his wife and everyone I can factually and legally justify naming. 

13 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

There is a reason for statutes of limitations, assuming the accused have a right to defend claims made against them.  

I do believe the accused have the right to face their accuser(s) and defend themselves. When dead, that's obviously impossible. Here is something you may or may not find interesting or relevant. This is a theoretical framework hatched in my little brain, based on studying psychology, Complex PTSD derived from long-term child sexual abuse and some elements of the law. See what you think.

Statutes of limitations are critical to ensure stale claims/allegations aren't brought to court after witnesses are dead, documents shredded, memories faded, physical evidence tampered with, crime scene contaminated, and the like. In the case of murder, we consider the crime so heinous that we impose no such limitations. We consider the possibility that one human being willingly and maliciously took the life of another is sufficient basis to overcome all of the objections summed up in the notion that too much time has passed.

In 1991, Leonard Shengold published his important book, "Soul Murder." To distill, he posits that child sexual abuse, and other severe abuses, result in "psychic and spiritual annihilation." As I consider statutes of limitations on bringing claims and prosecutions for child sexual abuse, when I equate those acts with "soul murder," I feel completely justified in calling for lifting those limitations. Although I am obviously alive and able to think and function, if you knew my story you wouldn't completely dismiss out of hand the comparison of these two crimes. My story is by no means the worst. Not by far. I'm not too proud to say that an objective person could look at periods of my life and use the word "annihilated" to describe what they see.

Taking the theory a step further, if the abuser is equated to a "soul murderer," those who participate in, facilitate, hide, obfuscate or even fail to report the crime are, in fact and by law, accessories to that crime, to one degree or another. Enter other adults who tacitly consent or passively condone such acts, like Local Councils, Chartering Organizations and BSA National. Under my theory, they are accessories before and/or after the fact. They are not only a convenient target with money, they have some measure of responsibility. HOWEVER, I agree that times have changed and we know SO much more about the behavior of predators, the need to train and protect kids, monitor and qualify leaders, and all that's being done in Scouting and other youth organizations. I merely share this to lend my perspective on how the BSA situation might be seen through a different, and perhaps new, lens.     

13 hours ago, yknot said:

My question though has been whether or how any perpetrators identified will be held individually accountable through this process. 

The only element of accountability being discussed is public disclosure of the names of abusers. I think that's the only thing the Court could order as part of the settlement. I know some survivor claimants and/or attorneys have that goal. As I mentioned, I don't like it for two reasons: (1) if my state creates a look back window by enacting the Victims Rights Act, I want to be able to surprise my abusers with a lawsuit and criminal prosecution; and (2) it doesn't seem right to accuse people publicly after anything less than a proper legal investigation of the allegations. As I mention elsewhere, this is claim validation and corroboration process is unlikely to involve anything close. For survivors or especially attorneys who are seeking public humiliation of these men and, more likely than not additional clients, they can use the Court to effectively defame and publicly convict people with impunity. That has bad public policy and immorality written all over it, in my view. 

12 hours ago, scoutldr said:

As a Scout in the 60s and 70s, my leaders are long dead.  I suspect in many cases, the only recourse is to go after the institution.  I would be interested to know how they go about proving the validity of a claim.

Claim validation is going to be incredibly complicated with the vast number on file with the Court. If I were cynical, I'd say that was part of the reason one group has gathered so many clients; to choke the system and force an allocation of the Trust by simple division. That creates a scenario where potentially specious claims get validated by virtue of an inability to challenge them. Time just doesn't permit it, if the BSA is going to stop bleeding money to pay lawyers already tapping the estate at every turn. Love them or hate them, the insurance company's lawyers will probably be the most aggressive in attacking that wholesale acceptance of claims. BSA, as well, but maybe less so. Ideally and properly, and this is why Troop and LC rolls have been sought by the insurance companies and Tort Claimants Committee, there should be a factual investigation to determine if the people and places included in a claim were where they are said to have been at the times alleged. That would be a step one. Establishing higher level detail and/or corroboration of the allegations of abuse will be tricky. Also, as I understand it, the level of proof required is only the “by a preponderance of the evidence" standard, as in more likely than not to have happened. Once the basic circumstantial facts of people, places and things are confirmed, the rest will be difficult to dispute or disprove. 

The Official Sexual Abuse Survivor Claim Form requests information on the LC, Chartering Organization, other leaders in the Troop or LC, and, etc. I've been told some men don't remember so much as the adult's name. Some have a nickname or nothing at all for detail, not even the name of the place where the Troop met. That's not much to go on. Since there are so many claims, I imagine confirming basic facts will be done as best they can and quickly. As to corroboration, that rises to a level of investigation and interviewing they will not take, in my opinion. In my case, they have enough information to indict, prosecute, and convict several people, calling witnesses all day long if this were a criminal case. 

Assuming they satisfy a threshold level of factual context, when it finally comes to determining the 'value' of each abuse claim, which is the unfortunate bottom line here being solely about allocated pennies, the Authorized Reviewer(s) will be given a TBD agreed upon metric or grading scale by which to measure and rank the claim. Factors to be weighed include: the fragility/susceptibility of the claimant to damage from abuse; the presence and manner of grooming; the intensity and duration of the abuse; if others were involved in the abuse acts; did the abuser use pornography, take photos or make videos; was there threat of force, violence, stated or implied ramifications for refusal or disclosure; was there special treatment and inducement/rewards; and what were the impacts of the abuse on the claimant's life in multiple areas, including physical, psychological, financial, relational, sexual, educational and professional. There are numerous excellent examples of what the grading and ranking methods look like, particularly from some of the Roman Catholic Church and USA Gymnastics cases.

How is all this going to be legitimately verified and established? I don't know. It is a high mountain of claims to trek and lots of data to mine (or not). Again, if the choke point was created both as a means of making more money and to overwhelm the system, it may well work. At the end of the day, the mediators could recommend they slice the pie through a default, “Everyone gets an equal piece because we don't know who deserves more or less." That will be another travesty of the situation. I believe there are lawyers who would strongly object to that, but when negotiations start happening and payday is in sight, the level of compromise that can be sold to a client is about the persuasive skills of the attorneys, the inclination of the deep pockets to settle and the desire of the client/claimants to be done with it and get something. That said, I think the Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice is the 800 pound gorilla in the mediation room, wielding the largest client list and, thus, enormous power to accept or refuse a proposed Plan of Reorganization. 

5 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The bankruptcy and related civil litigation does not preclude any victim from filing against the individual perpetrator. They just don't have as deep of a pocket to go after.

Indeed. However, large number of current Chapter 11 claimants live in states that have not yet adopted the Victims Rights Act. Without that statutory change, allowing a 'look back' suspension of retrospective statutes of limitations that currently bar such actions, whether civil or criminal, they have no legal recourse. Under the VRA, survivors would be able to pursue claims against their abuser, as well as any Local Councils and Chartering Organizations that do not participate in funding the Victims' Compensation Trust to gain future protection and release of past claims.  

20 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I will say, this knowledge really helped me explain to others why we must rigorously enforce barriers to abuse.  I always thought there were two reasons (protecting youth from abuse and protecting adults from false charges).  However, there is a 3rd reason … scaring away any sexual predator from even joining scouts as they see they will not have an opportunity and would be quickly discovered.

You are exactly on point. It seems people don't think much about that, instead focusing on the other two. It is an absolutely critical piece. Further, deterence by virtue of locking the doors and being on high alert isn't completely effective without repercussions. If someone does manage to pass through undetected and commit a crime of abuse, it must be met with the other side of deterence - grave consequences. 

There is a reason you see surveillance cameras next to statements to the effect that, "Violators will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." From my reading of massive amounts of data and history, down to reading 50 year-old individual reports from parents to Scout Leaders to Troops to Local Councils and then to local police, the failure to prosecute was equally as destructive as was inadequate vetting and training. Vetting only goes so far if someone has not been caught or credibly accused before they apply. Knowing that previous perpetrators have been aggressively prosecuted, sued and publicly disclosed, is a powerful weapon in combatting child abuse. Is it enough on its own? No. Is a multi-pronged approach to background check, train, enforce rigorous requirements of 2 adults person, and etc., coupled with prosecution a worthy adversary against would be perpetrators? Absolutely. A complete program to protect and deter has to include prosecution and public disclosure. And, it has to be swift and decisive. That requires empowering kids and youth to know what is right, wrong and how to have a voice. No easy task. In fact, it may be the most difficult thing in the moment, especially knowing that boys abused by men often don't report for years after the abuse. Over-reporting and false accusations are possible, but less likely in the context of child sexual abuse than other crimes. (Per the data I've reviewed.) 

If I were in charge, I would include in the training process a summary of law enforcement and legal processes in the case of an accusation. Leaders should know what is involved, as should parents, to my thinking. Because most people 'know' what they know about law and the judicial system from what they see on television, it is neither accurate nor helpful in a real world situation. In fact, it's counterproductive. 

13 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I would add awareness as well. Back in the day, we naturally trusted the Church, Boy Scouts, police. We were not aware as their transgressions were not disclosed by their respective leadership and often not by victims either. Now Little League, Pop Warner (fugetaboutit), and the Y (no pool!, no showers), my father was all over with caution.

 

 

Excellent point.

6 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I grew up Catholic also and went thru CCD in the 1970s.  It seems that there was similar opportunity.  For us, we met in the volunteer's apartment.  My parents would drop us off in front of the building and we knew which apartment to go to.  My wife grew up in an evangelical church and there were constant youth ministry activities and things happened.  I agree scouting had probably more opportunity, but other programs had similar issues.

We can agree to disagree. From a purely objective - add motive to opportunity and access - assessment, no other organization I can think of has as many vulnerabilities as Scouting. Yes, others "had similar issues," but you would have to combine multiple other youth activities to come up with one year's worth of Scouting. To qualify, this is only my personal experience with Scouting, other youth activities as a child/youth and as a parent. I can only share from what I know and what I've considered, so always open to being wrong. I try to avoid falling into my dad's "often wrong, but never in doubt," category, but I'm probably not as successful as I should be. 

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

That is also what the best teachers and scout leaders do.  

 

I unequivocally agree. Unfortunately, it is, therefore, the perfect cover for those who have impure motives. It is not only easily explained and justified, but noble. As we all know, or perhaps don't, these people are extremely patient, skillful, instinctual, strategic, and tactical. 

4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

@ThenNow ... I appreciate your insight and regret your experience.  My apologies.   Truly, I am sorry.

I'd like your thoughts on scouting specific versus broader societal problems.  I can't speak to your specific situation as it sounds like the worst case, a trusted leader inflicting abuse over a long time with multiple youth.   

My thoughts are scouting issues paralleled most organizations where youth were present and reflected a society that was not educated or prepared to address the abuse.  My understanding is scouting tried to address the issues before many other programs.  Clearly, not perfectly, but with an attempt.  ...  But church camps to music and sports programs to YMCA programs experienced similar issues.  From what I've read, society in general did not handle this well before the 1990s.  

A few examples I think about was a local music conservatory that did not have glass windows in their practice doors.  In 2003/2004, the conservatory added windows to all their doors after one of their instructors was arrested and charged with abuse.  I think of rumors about several of my teachers.  I think of my 1970s elementary school that had showers turned into storage because of abuse that happened.  I think of a roller rink employee / instructor in my state that abused hundreds according to his testimony.

I'm not trying to excuse scouting as there is not an excuse for abuse.  I'm trying to put it in the context of the society that existed at the time.

Having grown up Catholic (directly across the street from the Cathedral), involved in music, theater and sports, I can offer my view. I also have degrees in sociology and psychology and have considered the question, both on my own and as spurred by the topic interwoven throughout the forum.

After considering it for a while, Scouting is unique even amid other many other vulnerable activities involving adults and children, before the late 1980's. It occupies different category because of the sheer range of activities that create opportunity. We had/have swimming, overnight camping, hiking, myriad merit badges, boating, fishing, shooting, wilderness excursions, skill awards and on and on. Add to those contexts and opportunities wicked motive, and you have a very bad scenario. Compare that with focused activities like those I mentioned. Priests have limited proximity and opportunity, though many created new contexts. Most extracurriculars are in group settings and, again, with fewer opportunities in remote locations apart from both adults and, in many cases, other children. Again, predators find ways and means. Private lessons. Staying late after practice, and etc. That's what they do. I do think Scouting had an enormous vulnerability and was, therefore, extremely 'attractive' to sexual predators. In the case of my Scout Master, he basically showed up and became an Assistant and soon SM. Just ten years older than me, he was 20 when I joined. He was married, with no kids. What was he doing there? Who vetted him? Why was he there other than to be around boys? Was he a Scout? To my knowledge, none of the parents knew him. Obviously, he passed through some gate, but which and with what degree of rigor I don't know. 

Having said all that, it was a very different time, without question. To the point, decades after the fact I became aware that at least one adult had an inkling, but did nothing but made sure his boy was protected. 

As to the attorneys, they will certainly make a great deal of money. If the Victims' Compensation Trust is funded with $2B, they will be splitting in the range of $700M. The self-proclaimed, Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice, claims to have tens of thousands of members. Everyone knows it's really a group of attorneys aggregating their claims and they are the actual coalition, but whatever. If they control 2/3 of the claims, you can do the arithmetic. Honestly, I don't like to think about it. However, I know some of the attorneys who represent claimants and they are excellent people and great counsel. 

51 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

@ThenNow Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience with us. 

You're welcome. I don't know if it adds perspective or helps the discussion in any way.

Also, I appreciate your sympathy.

Yes, I have been in therapy and various treatment modalities for about 20 years. Things went south when our oldest son asked to join Scouts.