Calion

On 5/8/2023 at 1:20 PM, 5thGenTexan said:

I would be  asked to leave if I were to suggest our Troop do this.  

Its "not fun" and too regimented.  

😧

“Regimented” does not not equal fun. Good lord, Drill & Ceremony is one of the most fun parts of basic training, once you get the hang of it.

Too many people think that, though. Sad.

On 5/2/2023 at 9:23 PM, qwazse said:

Boy’s Life used to demonstrate this stuff via their comics. I don’t keep back issues, and the online archive isn’t indexed terribly well.

Any hints on how to find this would be helpful. Which comic? Pee Wee Harris?

Does anyone have any scripts for troop or patrol roll calls? @HashTagScouts provided the following one:

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SPL: Time for rollcall- Bacon Ninja Patrol?

BN Patrol Leader: Bacon Ninja Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]

Bacon Ninja Patrol members [in unison]: Sizzle-sizzle- pow!

SPL: Screaming Owl Patrol?

SO Patrol Leader: Screaming Owl Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]

Screaming Owl Patrol members [in unison]: Who! Who!

Which is great! But I was wondering if other troops that did roll calls did them differently, or if anyone was aware of some old Scouting resource that described a format.

Thanks in advance!

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

It is so obvious, no one thinks it needs to be said,

What's really interesting about this, is that even though it’s so obvious no one needs to say it, the answer you gave (although it was in fact an attempt at an answer to my question, which I appreciate) was pretty terrible. I don’t believe for a second that your troop actually does it that way.

Which just reveals the reason I asked the question to begin with: This is not easy or obvious. It requires thought to come up with something potentially workable, and trial-and-error to find out if it’s actually workable. It’s pretty obvious to me that none of you, with the exception of @HashTagScouts, do this in your troops. You think it’s easy and obvious, because you haven’t actually done it.

So what I’ve discovered here is that Scouters (at least on this site) will give insistent, superior advice on things they have absolutely no idea about, but just assume, based on their lack of experience, is easy and obvious.

And that is a valuable lesson.

23 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

You keep saying how and people tell you how and you don’t like it. 2 days after your question, the first clear how was given. It is so obvious, no one thinks it needs to be said, but tron did. 

Before it gets locked, I will again tell you how. If this doesn’t satisfy you, I don’t think anything will and I think there is some major communication issues. 

These are just examples. Like life and Scouts, it will be choose your own adventure. Lead by the SPL, mentored by the SM.

I don’t know how we could be clearer and at least 5 have given you good answers. One more try and I am done. 

———

When - anytime a troop gathers up and patrol names are given. This is at the discretion of the SPL. 
 

How - until it becomes habit, the SPL says “PL’s, assemble in patrol lines. Patrol A PL, please confirm everyone is here and give your patrol yell.”

——-

That is the when and the how. No more and no less  

 

 

@Tron

”Basically anytime the patrol name is called out is when the patrol yell should be used.

For example: when the SPL calls on a PL he should also tack on the patrol name ; and then the patrol would yell whatever they're yell is. It would be an esprits de corps moment that also could just be fellowship/horsing around. Think a scenario like the following:

SPL: "PL John Smith from the Rocket Patrol is going to lead todays rank advancement and teach the square knot."
Rocket Patrol: "To the moon!"”

Hey! You finally gave an answer!!!! Was that really so hard? "SPL says “PL’s, assemble in patrol lines. Patrol A PL, please confirm everyone is here and give your patrol yell.”” Is that how it’s done in your troop?

Personally, I think that’s kind of awkward, but who cares! It’s an answer, only the second one that has been given (Tron’s answer has nothing to do with opening ceremonies, of course).

To show that it is extremely easy to give an actual answer to this question, here’s @HashTagScouts' answer, the first and until now the only genuine answer that has been given:

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Meeting opening- after Pledge is said (add in whatever works for your Troop after Pledge- recite Scout Law, Outdoor Code, etc.):
 
SPL: Time for rollcall- Bacon Ninja Patrol?
BN Patrol Leader: Bacon Ninja Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]
Bacon Ninja Patrol members [in unison]: Sizzle-sizzle- pow!
SPL: Screaming Owl Patrol?
SO Patrol Leader: Screaming Owl Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]
Screaming Owl Patrol members [in unison]: Who! Who!
 
Our troop has done it this way for years, no prompt is needed for the Patrol Yell, but the SPL could have a prompt to ask after the PL salutes them "Patrol yell" as a cue.

22 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Your response has been “but how?”  

Since “how?” was literally the only question to begin with, answers that do not answer “how?” are, obviously, not answers.

40 minutes ago, MattR said:

Is it time to lock this thread?

Possibly. I’ve gotten one answer, and I suppose it’s hopeless to believe that any of these other folks will ever give me another one.

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It seems to have the highest number of down votes per post

Yes. I will remember that this forum downvotes people who ask questions and don’t accept unresponsive answers. Very “Helpful."

53 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I haven't criticized,  berated,  talked down or otherwise berated you.

Except "Oh my heavens,  sometimes its necessary to look into your own imagination and turn to your own ideas and close the books,” which is certainly talking down to me, and “Its just that simple, introduce the concept and stand back and watch,” when I have said multiple times that I’ve repeatedly done precisely that, with no results.

But I’m not talking just about you, but about the many people here, who all know the answer to the question, “How does your SPL cause the patrols to give their patrol yells during opening ceremonies?” but instead of answering me, insult me and downvote me to oblivion—anything except answering the question.

Except the honorable Mr. HashTagScouts, who actually answered the question. I was hoping other people had other examples, but apparently all they offer is obfuscation and implications that I’m stupid or unimaginative for not knowing the answer to a question that they know the answer to but refuse to tell me.

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I have answered your question

No you haven’t. Here’s what an answer looks like: 

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Meeting opening- after Pledge is said (add in whatever works for your Troop after Pledge- recite Scout Law, Outdoor Code, etc.):

 

SPL: Time for rollcall- Bacon Ninja Patrol?

BN Patrol Leader: Bacon Ninja Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]

Bacon Ninja Patrol members [in unison]: Sizzle-sizzle- pow!

SPL: Screaming Owl Patrol?

SO Patrol Leader: Screaming Owl Patrol all present or accounted for [salutes SPL]

Screaming Owl Patrol members [in unison]: Who! Who!

Anyone who actually knows an answer to this question has the obvious ability to answer the question in this way, except for however their troop does it. So everyone (except HashTagScouts) either knows an answer to the question and aren’t divulging it for some reason, or do not know the answer, and are misleadingly implying that they do.

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would do this.

18 hours ago, qwazse said:

Yes.

• https://troopresources.scouting.org/team-building-activities/ in reading to the troop the instructions for "Hi-Lo", the SPL specifies when patrols should give their yell.
• https://troopresources.scouting.org/knot-tying-skill-activities/  in reading to the troop the instructions for "Taut-Line Hitch Race"

Well, no, neither of those answer the question, which specifies "during opening ceremony." 

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You note the page on "silent commands". That is not intended to be an exhaustive list. The PLC could decide on a signal for each patrol to give their yell.

I agree! That’s a neat idea! Do you have any suggestions? What works for your troop?

On 4/26/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mrjeff said:

Oh my heavens,  sometimes its necessary to look into your own imagination and turn to your own ideas and close the books.

Obviously that wasn’t sufficient, or I wouldn’t have wasted my time posting. How do your Scouts do it?

On 4/26/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mrjeff said:

This yelling and cheering and patrol flags and names and ribbons are all simple tools to have fun. 

Well, no. If that was the case, they wouldn’t be required. They’re to build esprit de corps, and are an important part of the Scouting program.

On 4/26/2023 at 1:27 PM, Mrjeff said:

Its just that simple, introduce the concept and stand back and watch

I did that. As I said from the beginning, I introduced the concept, stood back and watched absolutely nothing happen. Which is why I asked a question here. Why is that such a difficult concept? Why am I being denigrated for asking a simple question that everyone here already knows the answer to?? I mean, obviously, your Scouts are already doing this, or you wouldn’t be berating me for not already knowing the answer to this question I don’t know the answer to. So you are withholding the answer for some perverse reason—to teach me a lesson? Why?

On 4/26/2023 at 2:18 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL, even that question is trolling 😜

I meant “What that I said is trolling?” Which was, I think, obvious in context, making this trolling.

19 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

The patrol yell is covered with sufficient details in the Scout Handbook. It is also covered in the PL Handbook. It is also covered in the SPL Handbook. It is also covered in the Troop Leader Guidebook. 

Could you quote anywhere, in any of those books, where it is covered in sufficient detail? Such that someone could actually do it?

I’ll give an example. Say the SPL wants his troop to line up in formation by patrol, without saying a word. How would he do that? Would he just know, without being told, what a good, efficient way to do that would be? Do we expect SPLs to figure out these things? No, we direct them to resources like https://troopresources.scouting.org/silent-scout-signals/, which describes, in detail, actually how to perform the action in question. If I’ve missed such a description in all of those books you list, I am apparently incredibly incompetent, so your help would be appreciated to point it out to me.

16 hours ago, DuctTape said:

An opening ceremony is an example of  "a troop assembly" .

Indeed! And just when do the patrols give their yells during this assembly? All at once? Spontaneously, when no one has told them to do so? While the SPL is giving the announcements?

16 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Pg 22 in my 1959 edition.

I find this version to be far superior to the newer ones b/c it provides actual "how-to-do" suggestions, instructions and examples. Most of your questions are actually answered in these old editions which demonstrates the inferiority of the current books.

But of course you’re not going to actually quote it for me, because that might be actually helpful.

3 hours ago, qwazse said:

The correct response is “have you asked your PL?”

And when the one asking is the SPL?

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Sometimes I say, “Can you use an index?” If not, I show them how to navigate their handbook.

And when the information isn’t in the Handbook?

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It’s a big country. There’s no set way for an SPL to call for patrol yell.

And so, because it’s a big country, and there’s no set way, no one is allowed to tell me how their SPLs do it??

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He may decides with the PLC how this should be done. Troops are allowed to have their own flow … their own way to communicate.

And if they have no idea, and ask me? Or just don’t do it because they don’t know how?

Quote

if you haven’t looked yet, give inquiry.net a browse. It has some pointers from older handbooks.

That’s a neat resource! I’d never heard of it before. Unfortunately, it doesn’t answer this question.

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

I don’t believe you have looked at all 4. 

You’re right; I missed “Troop Leader Guidebook” in that list. I’ve now searched for “yell” in all four, and none of them even mention giving the yell during opening ceremonies, except "Use the patrol yell to announce to the other patrols that your patrol is ready to go, is present during a troop assembly, or has done well during a patrol game.”.

44 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

The patrol yell is covered with sufficient details in the Scout Handbook. It is also covered in the PL Handbook. It is also covered in the SPL Handbook. It is also covered in the Troop Leader Guidebook. 

Where? None of those resources even mention giving the yell in opening ceremonies, unless I’m missing something.

21 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

no prompt is needed for the Patrol Yell

Well, no, there certainly is a prompt: You’ve listed it. But I didn’t even know patrol roll-calls were a thing. It’s not mentioned at https://troopresources.scouting.org/openings/. This sounds like a great idea; I’ll have to look into it. Is there any other reference for this, or is it just your troop practice?

22 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

It has been said again and again and again. 
 

How ever the SPL wants. 

And the SPL isn’t doing it, even though I have asked him to (and he has agreed to) several times. My suspicion is that the reason may be that he doesn’t know how. Well, it occurs to me that I don’t either. So I’m asking what other SPLs do.

22 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Yes. Ok? You still seem to be getting at something that you aren’t saying. I guess you don’t wish to share your alternative intent. 

I’m having a very difficult time believing that you’re serious here. You’re saying that, at Wood Badge, the SPL stands in front of the formation and says the literal words “all patrols, when reporting to a station, the PL confirms everyone is there and has the patrol give the patrol yell”? Can you really imagine anyone saying that sentence out loud in front of a formation?

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Are you the SM? Your desire for chapter and verse on these items may never be quenched. Being a SM isn’t so exact.

Obviously there’s no chapter and verse here. I’m just asking what others do. 

22 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

I was commenting on knots

Yes, and what I said was "Shall we have Scouts figure out how to tie knots without instruction as well?” So whatever your “knots” answer is, it should also apply to how the SPL should call for yells.

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At meeting opening, when the PL answers the SPL on roll call, the patrol just gives their patrol yell. 

Well, no, they don’t. Why would they do so when the SPL has in no way indicated that they it is time to so so?

And, wait, roll call? What roll call?

22 hours ago, SSScout said:

The Patrols stand around the flag pole area and, in turn , give the cheer and (gesture) or whatever they have created.

And how do they know to do that?

23 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Well, somebody dropped the ball somewhere if the older kids can't tie knots.

Someone has dropped the ball. The older kids don’t know how to call for patrol yells.

On 4/24/2023 at 2:58 PM, mrjohns2 said:

What are you really getting at? 

I'm asking just what the SPL should say or do to indicate that patrols should give their yells. This is the question I’ve been asking from the beginning, and no one has attempted to answer it.

The patrols aren’t just going to do it randomly. Indeed, it would be disruptive and disrespectful if they did. So the SPL has to do something to have the patrols give their patrol yells during opening ceremony.

12 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Then encourage them to come up with a patrol cheer.

When and how do they give the patrol cheer?

On 4/24/2023 at 2:39 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

By doing it.

“Scoutmaster, how do you tie a bowline knot?”

“By tying it."

5 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Another thing to mention is there is a difference between a Patrol Yell, and a Patrol Call. 

The yell is more of a cheer, something the patrol does to show spirit like when winning a competition.

The call, is a way to communicate, get each others attention, respond, etc...

 

These are both described in better detail with examples in the Patrol Leader's Handbook.

Could you point me to where this is discussed? My copy of the Patrol Leader’s Handbook says:

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YOUR PATROL’S YELL AND SONG

Go to any Scouting event and you may hear the shrill cry of the Eagle Patrol, the growl of the Grizzly Patrol, and the hoot of the Owl Patrol. Every patrol should have a yell. Make yours short, snappy, and somehow related to the name and identity of the patrol. Use the patrol yell to announce to the other patrols that your patrol is ready to go, is present during a troop assembly, or has done well during a patrol game.

How about a patrol song or chant? Draw on the creative powers of the patrol members to come up with new words to an old song or to invent a short, catchy chant that describes your patrol’s strengths.

 

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Now @Calion is just trolling.  No further responses needed for this one.  "Don't feed the trolls."

I’m sorry, what’s trolling? You said "Just like any other skill, the SPL discusses the gap at a PLC. They then ask an older scout from a different troop to come in and instruct or they ask an adult volunteer to come in an instruct. "

This implies that some older Scout from a different troop knows what to do to call for patrol yells. But I don’t know why an older Scout from a different troop will know something I don’t know, and that no one here seems to be able to answer. If you know who to look to for this answer, I’m all ears.