Cburkhardt

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

I could easily see, based on what I have read about the WV site, that serious remote and wilderness experiences are or will be options too, just as the traditional Philmont programs continue.

 

 

 

Again, a great observation.  The New River Gorge National River property is directly adjacent to the Summit, and we have unlimited access to it.  It effectively expands the 14,000-acre Summit into an additional 70,000 pristine acres.  The Park Service loves us and the OA has really helped develop that trail system in the park.   Another factor that is going to make that happen is the staff culture that has rapidly built-up at the Summit.  It is not a duplicate of the Philmont Rangers -- but is a distinctly different and cohesive group of people that will be able to pull off the kind of experience and project the kind of mystique that we have in Cimarron.

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

I do wonder if the format I perceive in the report is what they are moving towards in the changes at Philmont.  Their descriptions last summer of the direction they hope to move at Philmont would seem to encompass offering some of the best parts to a broader range of participants...

 

 

 

Great question.  Here is the answer.  Over the coming years small facilities will be added to the bases to allow family members to come and experience the sites in a family-appropriate way.  This can take place at the time a unit visits or entirely unconnected with a unit visit.  A program track for youngsters will be offered.  They have been doing this for a long time at Philmont and at the iconic Owasippe Scout Reservation, the pristine 5,000-acre preserve for Chicagoland and Northwest Indiana (the Pathway to Adventure Council).  Owasippe has operated its family camp for 55 years and has 40 housekeeping cabins, facilities and program staff unique to the family camp.  Generation of Chicagoans have enjoyed that facility and very modest cost.  Philmont has operated its family program for a long time (I'm not a Philmont expert and don't know when it started).  This capability, built into a limited number of places, will provide a wonderful opportunity for all Scouting families before, during and after their children are active in Scouting.

56 minutes ago, skeptic said:

This has been an interesting read.  I continue to be flummoxed by some of the truly negative comments, especially in light of the detailed positive report.  Cost, other than the transportation if you are not near, is within the same range as our more local camps, and less than some.  I would dearly love to be able to take our unit there, based on the report given, but for us, in California, it is prohibitive from the travel standpoint.

 

 

 

Thanks for this observation.  The negativity might reasonably flow a bit from the changes experienced and challenges faced by Scouting these past few years.  I spent several months late last year and early this year managing a series of extensive postings about these changes and the bankruptcy, so I don't shirk from these discussions.  If folks want to discuss the wisdom of the 100 council camps, Sea Base, Summit and Northern Boundary that operated during COVID this year, great.  If they want to debate the amount a Scout should pay for camp, wonderful.  If people want to advocate that the BSA lose high adventure base property as a matter of "justice", that is fair game as well.  However, the culture of this site is to debate those items in the policy and politics section and not on a posting about the quality of a summer camp program.

About that distance and costs from California. Scouts from the east, southeast and Midwest  raised funds to travel to Philmont and the wonderful national parks of your fine state for decades.  Because of the very interesting infrastructure and staff quality at the Summit, you now have an incentive to consider a trip east to the Summit and combine it with visits to nearby areas.  Your Scouts can do most everything they would do at a jamboree except attend the huge arena shows.  The difference?  They pay an economical $380 for a great week instead of the much larger Jamboree fees.  I say "economical" because I am informed that the fees to use zip lines and the other unusual facilities at private facilities is quite high.  At Summit the Scouts get a great summer camp program and all of the "extra fun stuff".  This is a beautiful facility and the Scouts love going here.

3 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Lack of shade and the extreme distance between activities were the others.  They very much want to go back next year.

I agree with your thoughts about shade.  The Summit is terrain that alternates I between dense forest and open fields.  The sun starts to become intense around 10:30 after the final fog patches are burned-off.  The direct sun continues until around 5, when the west-side mountains begin to cast shadows.  The temperature drops about ten degrees around 6, and again a significant amount between 10:30 and 11.  There is heavy dew every night as the clouds descend around Midnight.

Adults used to smaller camps are surprised by the distance between facilities -- but the Scouts (even the new ones) don't raise it.  

One note about the walking is that there are gravel roads everywhere.  You are best advised to bring steel-shank boots to avoid wearing-out your feet. 

Dear Friends:  The policy issue of whether the Summit should have been built or whether it should be retained through bankruptcy are fine matters to discuss, but I hope that can be done elsewhere on the site where policy matters are handled.  This is a very detailed review of a summer camp operation that most of us have not experienced and many have been curious about.  My intent is to provide a straight-up review of the summer camp only.  The previous pro/anti Summit discussions on this site have been exhaustive and informative.  Experiencing summer camp there last week was very satisfying for our Scouts.  That is really my main message.

23 minutes ago, David CO said:

I hope not.  If there is any justice in the bankruptcy process, the Summit will be the very first thing to go.

The bankruptcy process will determine what assets are necessary to continue the movement.  If the Summit does not make the judge’s list, I predict it will be purchased out of bankruptcy by the principal donors who built it, who will then lease it back to us for a very modest annual fee.

My posting is a review of a pretty good summer camp program and not a defense of the decision to build the Summit or conduct large events there.  Our Scouts are looking for a good place to camp and learn, My experience this last week tells me it is worth keeping.  

44 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

#1 complaint for my troop when they did summer camp at a local camp was the "ambient temperature." I know the first NSJ there, they could not keep the solar showers in stock.

I agree with you.  One cold shower on Monday morning definitely sent me running to the leaders’ showers for the balance of the week.  The decision to go with cold showers in such an otherwise well-built facility seems a bit mistaken.  We will discuss the trip at a PLC meeting in 2 weeks - will be interesting to see if they bring it up.

3 hours ago, yknot said:

 The scenario you are outlining is a parallel to the elite travel sports teams that many on this forum mock and who have the money to travel to exotic locations like Disney or Europe. There are some favored urban areas where moneyed interests are available to make such things happen for disadvantaged youth, but in the full breadth of America, this is not the fortunate case for most scouts. 

These are reasonable issues and thoughts.  The Summit summer camp cost was $380 per person.  We rented vans and drove 5.5 hours to get there, which is 1.5 hours farther than our council camp (which we passed on the way).  Our council camp price is $375.  So, it was a very similar price.  Yes, we do receive assistance for several of our scouts.  Our “monied interests” are the members of our modest CO church, who graciously held a coffee fundraiser to help send our Scouts and the parish itself gave us some additional help.  Another parish gave us $1,500.  We used it to greatly subsidize participation of those who needed it.  The Summit summer camp turned out to be a very good summer camp with some enjoyable bells and whistles.  Most of these scouts will never visit the Summit in its role as a jamboree site.  But, there is no reason why they should not experience these facilities when not being used for a jamboree.  Summer camp there turned out not to be exotic, expensive or Disney-like at all.  Just a fine time for our scouts to earn their merit badges and Learn the lessons of Scouting.

3 hours ago, yknot said:

 

Furthermore, it's appalling that certain people keep pushing the idea that it is acceptable that local and regional camps will fold and that Summit should become the fall back. That might get us through a few years but it is not a long term solution. Scouting must be local.

My note simply observes that if and when a council camp closes, the Summit summer camp will be available and offers a good program.  I don’t think closing camps is the way to go unless local folks can’t sustain them.  I agree local is best, and we will go to our council camp next year if they operate.  I wish your council the best over the next few years as the financial stresses impact everyone in the BSA.

3 hours ago, yknot said:foolhardy and ridiculous risk to import youth from all over into West Virginia and local folks were and are understandably upset. I've got family in the area so I know this is not at all as bucolic a situation as is presented here. 

Thanks for raising the health issue.  While I did not make the review COVID-centric, perhaps I could have mentioned that all scouts and adults in our unit we’re tested within a week of departing and Temperature-monitored daily from that point and throughout the week.  Masks and gloves were worn and social distancing was followed.  We are fortunate that two parent-physicians were able to accompany us as well.  The Summit medical and program staff was effectively instant on compliance.  We acted on medical advice, plain and direct.  The circumstance was far safer than the circumstances these scouts are going back home to.

45 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

What about the showers, are they still "ambient temperature?"

Yes.  The showers are still cold water in most of the camp, but they have installed hot showers for leaders.  I think it is really only a matter of time when more hot showers will be added.  Interestingly, none of ourScouts complained about it.  Not once.

Scoutmaster Burkhardt Reviews Summer Camp at the Summit

This is a review of summer camp as experienced by Scouts and leaders at the Summit's “James Justice National Scout Camp” in early August, 2020.  The Summit is known for its role in hosting jamborees and is used for high adventure and training activities.  However, this review will focus solely on the summer camp operation.  I am wearing my hat as Scoutmaster to inner-city youth from the District of Columbia in writing this.  Late in the review, I will make limited comparisons to council summer camps as I have experienced them as a Scoutmaster and (in my earlier days) camp staffer.  Finally, I will share a thought about a potential future role for the Summit.

Basics.   The cost to attend was about $400 per youth and adult, with two complimentary fee waivers for adults.  The summer camp normally runs from Mid-June through early August.  During jamboree years, the summer camp has a shorter season.  Sign-ups and merit badge scheduling use the same on-line system and program that council camps use.  Camp starts Sunday and ends Saturday morning, although there is an option to arrive early on Sunday for a small additional fee.  

Arrival.  Troops arrive at the Summit Visitors Center, which is a large and modern structure similar to national park service visitors centers.  You can arrive by vehicle, commercial air (30 min. away) or Amtrak (20 min. away).  Buses are available to transport you to the visitors center.   It is complete with a trading post, museum exhibits, small climbing wall and plenty of space and activities for Scouts to explore while unit leaders submit all of their medical, waiver and other forms.  This includes a swim test report, because the Summit requires units to conduct their own swim tests prior to arriving.  This summer, the interior of the visitors center was not open because of the COVID virus, but I was able to get inside later in the week for a look.  The center is located off-site, assuring that persons do not access the Summit until they are fully cleared.  I have never experienced a more meticulous clearance process.  I can assure you, not a single Scout or leader is going to access the Summit without a complete set of medical and other forms, including a current YPT form for each leader.  They make no exceptions, which is good in this day – but would be a real problem if you do not have your forms accessible.  We were missing a couple of things and were able to have them e-mailed from home.  Once cleared, the troop heads to an entrance location.  Off base, there are no direction signs to alert an uninformed driver that a BSA installation is nearby.  Security at the gate is very tight, with three personnel carefully re-checking authorization to enter and taking final temperature checks before opening a heavy security gate.

Campsite.  Campsites for those attending Summer Camp are located in Sub camp C, which is one of the many sub camps used during the jamborees.  We followed the map and well-marked road system to our site and were met there by a “rover”, which is the Summit title used for commissioner-like staffers.  The sites are in open fields and include pre-set Coleman tents specially manufactured for jamborees.  They are similar in shape to the 3-person Coleman Sun Dome tents sold at scout shops, but slightly taller and made of a tougher gauge material.  Each participant gets an army-style cot.  Each site has a sturdy dining fly structure mounted on a steel frame and two picnic tables.  We brought along an extra dining fly and the Summit provided two additional picnic tables.  The sites are directly adjacent to solidly built shower/flush toilet facilities.  The showers are cold, but leaders can walk to a leader-only facility that has hot showers.  I was told there are a limited number of sites back in the woods, but did not view them.  One of our leaders was there earlier in the summer with a contingent group and prefers the open field sites.

Food.  There is a very attractive dining hall close to the campsites, which serves all meals.  The food quality was similar to a high school cafeteria, which disappointed some.  However, the food was filling and satisfying in a basic way.  Snacks were laid-out and accessible at all times for Scouts to take with them.  Because of COVID, most preferred to take their food and eat outside on the many picnic tables set on a broad lawn.  I hope that COVID is not a major factor in the summer of 2021, so I will not provide a detailed explanation of the anti-COVID procedures other than to say they were extensive, effective and firmly encouraged by the friendliest staffers I have seen do such things.

Scouting Program.  An overall initial comment is that in comparison to what most councils can field, the Summit summer camp staffers were slightly older and significantly more educated, experienced and talented at what they do.  I suppose this is to be expected at a national base, but as an experienced Scouter, I immediately understood this difference would favorably affect the entire week.  I was right.  As an example, the technical/academic merit badges (like astronomy and archeology) are taught by graduate students in those fields or similarly experienced people.  Traditional merit badges are taught by college-age students or experienced adults on vacation.  Everyone I spoke to seems to have worked there for at least a few years.  Not once did I hear a comment that a counselor was not up to their job.  The record keeping of badge completion was kept current on-line on an everyday basis.

Merit badges are completed in one or two three-hour sessions.  For instance, lifesaving and swimming are taught on Mon-Tues and again on Wed-Thurs, with choice for either morning or afternoon.  Kayaking is a single three-hour session offered at multiple time through the week.  Some badges are in the evening hours.  

Summit does not precisely replicate a traditional summer camp merit badge program.  For instance, it does not offer canoeing or rowing – traditional staples at camps I have worked at and taken my Scouts to.  However, it does offer wonderful merit badges that most summer camps would not normally offer, such as white water.  Climbing and shooting sports are offered at a world-class level of quality in terms of facilities and staffing.  The best practice is to simply go online and see if their merit badge offerings might well-serve your Scouts.

Our Scouts earned an average of five merit badges each, and nobody seemed unreasonably stretched to finish them.  Most merit badges are finished by Thursday evening, leaving Friday for completion tasks. 

The Summit’s new-Scout program takes place on a replica of Brownsea Island.  An actual island.  Our Scouts did not participate in it, but I heard from other Scoutmasters that it was well run.

Use of Jamboree Program Facilities.  Scouts and leaders can use many of the facilities built for the jamborees.  This includes the zip lines, climbing, skateboarding, mountain bike, laser pistol, sustainability treehouse and many other facilities.  Some of these work with merit badge offerings, but all facilities are open to everyone.  These are the same facilities open to “day visitors” during jamborees.

Camp-wide Programming.  We visited during the COVID pandemic when all camp-wide assemblies were cancelled.  Instead, high-quality welcoming and closing videos featuring attending Scouts were professionally produced and broadcast in place of opening and closing campfires.  The videos make a nice camp souvenir.

Differences about the Summit.  The Summit is a different place to go to summer camp and is not entirely comparable to a council-owned facility.  After all, it cost hundreds of millions to build and has facilities no council could rationally think about building.  You might say that being at the Summit for summer camp is like being part of something very big and bold, as compared to the intimate feeling you can get at a smaller council camp.  It has staffing capability (both paid and volunteer) that cannot be approached by a council.  For instance, a full-time and on-site fire/rescue/medical team, pristinely built and maintained infrastructure and counselor/staff network of personnel who teach at the national class level.  After a few remaining facilities are completed and nature heals-over some construction evidence, the effect will feel like being in a top-class national park.

Scouts and leaders understand and react very favorably to the quality of instruction and the maturity of the staff.  Troop leaders in particular are very entertained by using the program facilities built for the jamborees.  The beauty of the site, including being surrounded by medium-sized, wooded mountains, favorably affects all.  The sheer quality and size of the built infrastructure is striking -- everything there appears to have been built to last at least 100 years.  Thick, massive and uniquely constructed bridges, shelters, dams, arenas, buildings and sports facilities.  The Summit has already established and is further strengthening a unique staff “culture” like those at the other national high adventure bases and iconic council scout camps.  My sense is that it is personality of Scouting in our nation east of the Mississippi, but welcoming to all.

Burkhardt’s Bottom Line.  I strongly recommend Summit for a Troop summer camp experience.  To oversimplify things for the sake of brevity, let me state that everything seems to work well, everybody seems to know exactly what they are doing and everything about the operation is simple to understand.  The staff – ranging from dining hall, program, medical, maintenance and administrative personnel – live up to the finest we offer at the other national bases and our most-iconic council Scout reservations.  The fact that the staff rose to the occasion of effectively dealing with COVID during the just-completed summer camp season is itself reason to have confidence you can have a solid week of summer camp here.  Our Troop will probably return to our own council camp next year (the renouned Goshen Scout Reservation), but I can easily see a return trip to the Summit in our future.  Another option might be for our Troop to attend our council camp and offer an “extra” week of summer camp for a smaller group of our most-motivated Scouts.  

Our 37 Scouts, 19 adult leaders, 70 Scout parents and All Souls Episcopal Church offer a heartfelt thanks to the entire Summit staff and those National Council professionals who support them for making summer camp happen for our Scouts during this very difficult year.  This was the only opportunity this summer for several of our Scouts BSA girls to experience nature beyond their urban homes.  Your operation of summer camp appeared almost effortless, but I know it took much to execute.  

Final Comment.  I am taking off my campaign hat (yes, I wear one as Scoutmaster) and putting on my past council president and past national volunteer hat.  The personalities and physical attributes of the Summit will continue to embed themselves into the heart of Scouting.  While particularly true among the Scouting family living east of the Mississippi, an attachment is growing among US and international Scouts and Scouters who have attended Jamborees at the Summit.

As the financial fury of the reorganization bankruptcy and COVID challenge our ability to provide Scouting to American youth, the Summit might play a central role in continuing and growing Scouting.  An unfortunate but unavoidable fact is that operation of many council camps – as well as many councils themselves – will no longer be viable.  Councils will be combined and some camps will cease operation and be sold.   The Summit can provide a national-class and affordable summer camp experience for the Scouting families who are within reasonable distance – a massive percentage of our membership.  This was not a central purpose for developing the Summit, but it might become an unexpected life ring for Scouting.    

Council Standards.  There really isn't anything wrong with the notion that councils should possess certain financial, operational, membership and programmatic attributes in order to offer Scouting in a geographic territory.  That's really the point of JTE and its predecessors as applied on a council basis.  In the past, when a current executive board was unable to sustain a reasonable level of those attributes, they were encouraged to consider merging.  The success and failure of those combinations usually depended on how well the personalities of the combining organizations were and whether they were then able to address the difficulties.  It often takes years for these "merger of equals" to result in meaningful benefits to the youth participants, because resulting volunteer leadership (sometimes urged on by professionals) don't make the necessary changes and enhancements.  

I'm a supporter of withdrawing the chargers of such councils and forming fresh boards to replace them -- often in combination with other low-performing councils.  The new board is not comprised of the under-performing past leadership but fresh folks that are willing to move on what needs to be done.  In this manner, two or three underperforming previous council do not become a huge underperforming council with leaders and professionals who squabble over power and properties.

Sea Scouts and Exploring.  Everyone will recall that Sea Scouts has been officially adopted by the US Coast Guard Auxiliary as its youth program, much as Navy Sea Cadets is the official youth program of the Navy.  Sea Scouts can even have dual membership with the Auxiliary.  The partnership is important, because it aligns Sea Scouts with a national organization with resources and reach -- including into the Coast Guard itself.  Sea Scouts is a micro-sized program and needs to grow.  Without a strong Auxiliary link being developed, it might be difficult to sustain Sea Scouts into the future.

Individuals are now threatening legal action against Auxiliary sponsorship or program engagement with Sea Scouts because the religious belief membership standard cannot be required by a government entity like the Auxiliary.  These are no-win situations for the BSA.  Long ago Law Enforcement Exploring was transferred into "Learning for Life" -- a BSA membership structure that does not include a religious belief standard (at the time the BSA's previous "don't-ask-don't-tell" membership standard was also an issue).  This was an effective way to continue these government-connected programs in the face of program-killing legal action and political opposition.  I predict the same will happen here because of the existential need to continue and build the Auxiliary-Sea Scout relationship.

I hope that as the transfer is made, the program and term "Sea Scout" continue as-is.  I earned Quartermaster in my Auxiliary-supported Ship in the mid-70's, which meant that during the time I was a "Sea Explorer".  The label never really worked, and the participants called themselves Sea Scouts in any case.  There is no legal or rational program purpose to force a relabeling of the program -- just make the shift of things as-is to avoid the legal problem.

Merlyn:  What the information you have means is that if the unit wants to call itself a "Sea Scout ship", the declaration of Religious Principals does apply.  If they want to call themselves an "Maritime Explorer Post", the declaration of Religious Principles does not apply.  An Auxiliary Flotilla can actually offer both registration status at the same time.  The Exploring program is a career-oriented subsidiary/membership category of the BSA that has no religious membership standard.  One of the reasons it was established was because of complaints of persons such as yourself, that government should not require a young person to recognize any religious principal in order to participate in programming.  So, a young adult who wants to be active with the youth program offered by a Coast Guard Auxiliary Flotilla can resister as either a "Sea Scout" or an "Explorer" and do the same things.  I might also mention that although Scouting had a "don't-ask-don't-tell" policy for about 20 years (eliminated movement wide-about 5 years ago), that never applied to Exploring either.  I was a Sea Scout and we never had religious content in our program, and I think that is typical.  If you have a young adult that wants to take advantage of our maritime programs, you can do so knowing she will be welcomed and will not have to recognize any religious principles.  

From a strictly business standpoint, the Virus has stopped all meaningful cash flow and is choking recruitment and retention.  This increases the risk of nationwide liquidation of BSA and councils (including properties)as a reorganization requires a strong financial basis for a going-forward organization.  I don’t think we are there yet, but Scouting will be astrikingly different organization after this.

23 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

What I haven't heard discussed much is where the COs are in all of this.  They are also subject to all the new claims in those states allowing them, and I don't understand what hap

I have not given a lot of thought to this, but it occurs to me that if local CO’s are individually sued, it might be a messy and risky business bet for the plaintiffs attorneys, who do all of this on contingency.  While the individual charters vest COs with oversight duties, it might be a difficult case to actually prove given the passage of so much time.  Frankly, they will likely be viewed sympathetically by juries.  The genius behind suing BSA nationally is that it is a “one case gets all” situation and the evidence was created and preserved on a national basis by the defendant (BSA).  Suit the local baptist church that has a run down building, lots of debt and nobody who even recalls there was once a BSA unit?  Not a very attractive proposition.  The exception might be suiting national churches that had a central coordinating control over their units and related records.  I am only aware of one — maybe two — in that category.   A “one suit gets all” approach might work in those instances.  All the other “national churches” are more like affiliated associations that focus on theology and not operations.

The rational approach is for a council executive board is to evaluate its own potential liability for incidents which may have occurred within the council.  Some councils already know they have significant Incident exposure.  It those cases there really is no choice.  They can either contribute something in the national bankruptcy and get the discharge, or they can get separately sued or bankrupted into liquidation.  That simple.  If they think they have a pristine record, they can roll the dice that no case will materialize in the future from an aggrieved 65-year-old.  It occurs to me that the bankruptcy trustee in the national case would set a “contribution” to the victim’s Trust fund from such a council at a lower rate.  Depending on the cost, that might be a reasonable investment in Purchasing a discharge.  

The immediate issue for councils to determine is whether they will agree to sign the bankruptcy documents and submit their council financials to the Bankruptcy Court in July.  Since one case can wipe out the assets of a single big council, I anticipate most will want to contribute to the victim's trust fund and benefit from the discharge.

I know nothing about the events and conditions discussed here, but grieve that another property vested with generations of great memories is no longer going to be a scout camp.  I only know the good character and judgement of the man, who has successfully led staff and volunteers through tough times elsewhere.

We are in different circumstances now and given the events the nation and BSA face, our survival will require changes that will be disappointing to many of us.  A new SE coming into a council cannot be expected to force his executive board to preserve that which cannot be funded or that which is not sufficiently used.  Preserving all properties at the cost of program sustainability is more akin to historic preservation or park system operations.  Regretfully, local councils have no source of tax revenue to fund the massive expenditures of those approaches.  And, many people, including commenters on this site, increasingly refuse to contribute to their local council.   People like Marc Ryan are hired to foster solutions rather than urge continuation of the same activity that was threatening Scouting in the predecessor councils.  Good luck to the folks at LEC as you make the difficult decisions to preserve Scouting in Ohio.

My high opinion of Marc is from a few years of working with him elsewhere.  He inspired his staff and volunteers in meaningful ways.  He has sound overall judgement and does not bring a personal agenda to a council.  We need more of that.

You heard it here first.  Marc Ryan is one of the best young talents in the Scouting profession. He will go far in Scouting and will be one of the people who helps lead us into the new "format" that develops in the post-bankruptcy years.  He is a businesslike guy in some respects, but an absolute program enthusiast who inspires he pros and the volunteers around him.  I don't know anything about this particular transaction, but reading just the comments in the last few weeks it seems like the post-combination Council  needed to right-size the property operation.  Good luck to the folks on Lake Erie!

The out-of-pocket annual cost to fully participate in our troop (including registrations, summer camp, 8 weekend campouts, patches and just about everything else but high adventure) is around $1,000.  This is paid through dues, activity fees and fundraising, which in our troop is an annual fundraising event.  We give a troop FOS gift to the council.  So this increase will be a piddling amount against our overall budget.  New members will pay the $25 without issue.  It is the cost of doing business, and is mainly our insurance.  If the council would prefer a fee instead of FOS, that is fine with us.  They need and deserve the support and we will provide support either way.  You have a few auto accidents and your auto insurance increases.  Same here.

Scouting is still “dirt cheap” in comparison to all of the other options for families out there.  There are a lot of middle class families out there that spend many multiples of our annual costs on just a couple of “travel team”, kid pageant, cheerleader camps, unneeded prestige bicycles or gym shoes.  I have no problem with this.

A few days ago I stopped checking this thread because of what I sensed was irrational negativity.  I was going to post something back then but had one of those "write the letter but don't send it" moments.  In the end we need to be optimistic in the most challenging of times and generally have an openness to seeing how we can move forward to another, better day.  Relitigating policy decisions already made and making sweeping generalizations is just not going to be helpful to anyone.  I wish everyone well who comments here and hope they can find ways to continue serving young people, whether it is going forward with us or elsewhere.  It will be tough, but we will live through this and come out on the other side a Scouting organization that uplifts the lives of our young people. 

14 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

idea of the BSA Security and Enforcement Branch is rather laughable. 

The issue is whether the concept of having a chartered organization ("CO") for each unit is a "sacred cow" that is no longer an effective membership structure for Scouting.  A number of comments made above show that the well-intended CO concept needs to be re-evaluated. 

One alternative suggested would be to have a "unitary" organization nationally or within a council where all units are directly owned and operated by the BSA.  This is how the GSUSA operates.  Their volunteers sign a contract-like document making clear the unit belongs to GSUSA and that continuing adult leader participation is subject to the approval of GSUSA personnel.  They directly oversee the program and finances of individual GSUSA units.  The BSA system places that oversight and authority in the hands of the CO, which legally-speaking owns and operates the unit with a license (charter) to use the BSA program materials, etc.  A BSA unit is supposed to seek approval from the CO Representative on major decisions.  The choice is simply whether you would rather  have the legal authority to oversee your unit and your personal unit leadership role in the hands of the pastor of the church or in the hands of the person the BSA would identify (maybe a District Executive or District Chair).  Some commenters are apparently comfortable with a DE having direct authority to approve/disapprove the program and finance decisions of their units and their selection as a unit leader -- because they think weak units should improve or go away and a BSA employee would be qualified to make those decisions.  Others are hesitant to become directly subjected to BSA employee/senior leader authority based on experiences with people who might have been overbearing or arbitrary.

GSUSA blogs include sometimes-bitter commentary relating instances where a volunteer claims to have been dismissed by a paid employee for non-compliance with some regulation.  I am not talking about things like drinking or YPT, but things like refusal to follow administrative procedures.  Others grouse about administrative requirements that appear to closely regulate their unit income sources and expenditures.  Whether those postings are overstated or not, it highlights that there are volunteers in other organizations that do not wish to have an employer-employee style relationship with program professionals in their volunteer activities.  [I am not very familiar with the GSUSA and surely have not used the precise language they would use to describe their operations.  My general points are correct though.]  

I think what this really comes down to is that BSA unit leaders are the kind of folks who will not want to subject their units or themselves personally to the direct authority of a BSA employee -- with the notable exception of violations of YPT and similarly-serious health and safety matters.  If the CO system is modified or replaced, I think unit leaders will insist on a reasonable alternative "supervisory" structure.