Ankylus

I can show you studies that say BOYS LEARN BETTER IN A COED ENVIRONMENT! (Does shouting make it true?) The whole single-sex education thing has become a mantra among some people, but the data doesn't actually back that up (at least not yet). The studies are all over the place. I can show you studies that say one thing, others that say the opposite and ones that say it doesn't matter. So you may believe it's true (and it might be), but it isn't a given and it isn't unreasonable for people to disagree with you on this.

I am an attorney, and I will tell you that it is an article of faith in the legal profession that one can find an "expert" to testify in support of almost any proposition. There are studies, and then there are studies. 

I am also againt partnering with or creating a parallel program because PEOPLE WILL IGNORE THE SEGREGATION AND GO COED ANYWAY.  ( emphasis again)

"Parallel program"....excuse me if I am mistaken, but I thought we had already decided in this country that "separate but equal" is "inherently unequal". I believe that. I do not think you can successfully have a "parallel program". Which means they won't have any choice but to abandon the decision to admit girls or to fully integrate. And many units will go straight to full integration for the reasons set forth above...not enough volunteers, not enough resources, easier to plan program, etc. "Parallel program" is just proponents trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Actually, some of our scouts are fairly precocious on political topics. As are some of the parents. We recently were dealing with a parent complaint regarding a scout wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat on a campout. We also had a big stink from a parent about an old photograph on the wall in which a scout was holding a Confederate battle flag. And when I give the First Class (?) talk regarding the citizen's rights and responsibilities, at least one scout will always try to engage me in a political debate. The response is always, "I don't mind discussing it with you, but this is not the time or place."

Too many people--on both sides of the political aisle--cannot handle political discussions in a mature, rational, adult way. It is clearly unreasonable to expect the scouts to do so. And nobody sends their boys to us for political indoctrination.

Personally, I would steer clear of anything remotely political as if it were the plague. The likelihood that a simple, 5 minute discussion will engender a huge problem is simply to great no matter how well intentioned the discussion is. And dealing with that problem will generate ill will and detract from the program.

Just my $.02. Your mileage may vary just as the composition of your troop (and parents) surely will.

I really like this idea of an extra day in base camp for acclimatization. But I have strong memories of this incredible restlessness and overwhelming desire to hit the trail. I can't imagine restraining that for an extra day. As my son said, "I didn't come to Philmont to sit in base camp. I need to get on the trail."  We were all like race horses stopping in the gate.

But acclimatization is important.

We flew into and out of ABQ. We used Blue Sky Adventures who arranged to get us from ABQ to Philmont and from Philmont back to ABQ. Day 1 we got in late because of a 5 hour flight delay at the airport. Day 2 we went whitewater kayaking outside of ABQ. Day 3 we got up early and went straight to Philmont and checked in. On the other end, the day after we got off the trail we got up early and went straight to ABQ to fly home. Good thing we got off the trail early enough to go enjoy Cimarron the day we got off the trail.

When my oldest went in 2010, they did like the good Colonel and rented some large passenger vans and drove up from Houston through Abilene. A long drive, though. I did not go on the drive. One of our adults was a private pilot with his own plane and we flew up to Raton. Philmont came out and picked us up and afterward drove us out and dropped us off at the Raton airport. I was worried about acclimatization what with living at about 32', but I did not have any problems on that trip. Raton is a small airport , though, with no commercial aviation. 

Assuming they in fact are integrating girls to achieve a truly "coed" program...

I don't see how they can possibly have "family camping" and retain anything like the patrol method. I consider the patrol method to be one of the primary tools for teaching leadership. Family camping will destroy that aspect of the scouting program as we know it.  Admitting girls has no real impact on that, as you can have girl patrols and boy patrols and coed senior leadership. So national has an opportunity there...let's see if they can keep from screwing that up. 

But you need one program, I believe. In for a penny, in for a pound. Girls should be able to participate on an equal footing with boys.  All opportunities, including leadership and advancement, should be as equally available without exception or you defeat the purpose of integration.

All our youth attending Philmont this year were required to take YPT. I think that is a Philmont requirement, but I am not sure. 

We "require" all our youth in senior leadership positions to take YPT, mostly to protect themselves when dealing with younger scouts.

I am not aware of a general requirement for all scouts to take YPT. I think it's a good idea, however, for self-protection.

I am appalled at your SM's policy on return calls. That is really setting a bad example for your scouts. In the professional world, if somebody calls you and leave a message, you call them back. You won't stay employed long if you don't. It would be one thing if he asked the scouts to contact him in way other than his phone, but once he asks them to use the phone, regular phone etiquette should apply. That does not include ignoring the original caller who leaves a message.

In answer to your question, the leaders in our troop each have their own policy. I tell the scouts that if a leader asks you to communicate with them in a certain way, then use that way. Our CC prefers the phone. (He will call back, however, when he receives a message.)

Personally, we try to use the landline at the house for communicating with the school. I try to keep scout communications on my mobile phone limited to other leaders. I like for the scouts to contact me by email.

I agree with Fred...if you publish your contact information to the scouts like that you need to expect them to use it. So don't pass it around if you don't want to be contacted.

What exactly does that mean? Boys and girls in the same troop, if that's what the CO wants? Or separate units by gender?

I'm afraid they will give us exactly as much guidance as they did with "gay scouts" and "trans boys". That is, they will tell us we have to take them and that is it. No other guidance on any other aspect of the problem.

Won't be my problem. My youngest son is Eagle in a month. I will be out of here. I wish the rest of you best of luck.

The answers above are correct.

Be aware that some troops adopt policies that prohibit scouts under First Class from working on MBs. (There is usually an exception for summer camp.) I have seen it twice. I strongly oppose this, and it may even be contrary to national policy. I don't know. But be aware that some troops are really whacked about this and that you might see or hear some people parrot that in conversation because they don't know any better.

I saw an altitude sickness debacle once and was a part of one once.

At Philmont in 2010, we were at French Henry when they brought down an adult leader on a stretcher that backcountry staff said was an altitude sickness problem. Then, before they could get a ranger up to the crew for 2-deep leadership purposes, the crew got lost. So they closed down the program to send the staff out to find them. (That was a bummer because it was our layover day and we had gone to French Henry after climbing Baldy and stopping off at Baldy Town for food. The boys just wanted the program.)

Years earlier, on a family backpacking trip pretty much everyone got it. We are not only flatlanders, but lowlanders. We live at about 30' above sea level and drove straight through to Colorado up to Wolf Creek Pass. I got it, but mildly. I got a splitting headache, but only on the approach to, on, and descent from the Continental Divide. 

It sneaks up on you. You get a little queasy, maybe a little headache. You don't necessarily associate it with altitude sickness right away. You just feel your a little off, or got a bit of a bug or something.Especially if you haven't experienced it before.

My $.02 is if you are at altitude and someone gets queasy AND a headache, you just assume its altitude sickness and react accordingly. This is double if you are from a low area and didn't take time to acclimate.

The problem I have with it is that the troop actually made it a policy to disregard BSA uniforming regulations and go with jeans instead of scout pants.

All the rest of this jaw jaw is neither here nor there to me. It's really not that hard to change into your uniform in the car or the bathroom before you go to the scout meeting. And if you can't afford scout pants, well OK that's understandable. I mean, accommodations can be made to meet a scout's individual circumstance.

But this is a whole different thing to me. (1) They are intentionally disregarding BSA uniforming regulations for the entire troop as a matter of troop policy, and (2) now they are getting implicit approval from national.

Perhaps I should just start making of list of all national's regulations I choose to disregard...I have some ideas. Believe me, I have some ideas. And national won't like them.

Very nice. And eloquently said. Thank you for posting.

Surprised by the whole, "I had to stay 2 nights alone in the woods for my final test for Eagle" thing, though.

Sorry to hear that. The troop I grew up in disbanded, too. Very sad. 

Thank you. As mentioned, we are waiting to see about the eye.

I am happy to report that the most recent prognosis is that they believe the scout will keep not only the eye, but also the tear duct. A happy ending, presuming they are correct.

Is this the norm for Jambo, I am not saying that.  I have no idea how widespread this was and I get this is all anecdotal based on what the boys from our troop experienced. 

I will say it: yes, this is normal for jamboree. The undesirable patch trading attitude and practices...I saw that when I was at the 1977 National Jamboree, too. People selfishly abusing the electrical outlets? 

There are tens of thousands of people at Jamboree. Statistically speaking you  KNOW there are going to be people doing all of which you complain and then some. And even a small percentage of a very large number of people is still a lot of people. Yes, it is disappointing that scout don't act in a scout-like manner. But it's the way of the world that every large group will have some bad apples.

The trick is to know it and successfully navigate it so that you still have a good time. It seems your son did. Kudos to him, for he has experienced a good life lesson and come out on top. And that sounds a bit like scouting to me.

Thank you again, one and all. We are applying for the "Spirit of the Eagle Award".

Trump supporters should just keep in mind: you wanted this.

Ah, politics. You're statement is untrue. Have you ever heard one person say anything remotely like, "That Trump, I hope he politicizes his speech to the Boy Scouts and says a lot of inappropriate things!"  But one takes the bad with the good. I understand you don't like the man. I don't either. But at least try to be rational.

Well if I am teaching character-building, I would expect if my scouts felt it was inappropriate they would tell their SPL who would then inform me or better the SPL would say Mr. Schiff this is inappropriate, we should leave. I would allow them to quietly leave. No disruption, if no one bars our exit.

 

Freedom of speech goes both ways - speaking and listening. We have the freedom to respectfully listen or not listen (leave).

 

Either way, we would debrief later.

Freedom of speech is not implicated here because there is no government action.

One thing is for sure, after that rant by the new COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, the 'mooch' is the last person anyone should want to speak in front of the boys...it's like Larry Flynt is now directing communications in the White House....No, sorry, Flynt isn't nearly profane enough to match 'the mooch'.

Was or is anybody talking about Scaramucci talking to any boy scout groups? I mean, what's the relevance here? Or did it just make you feel good about yourself to say it?

An update. Appears one of the young men killed may have robbed a girl friend of one of the men charged. The Eagle Scout may have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

Police: 3 arrested in double-slaying of Maryland teens

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/18/police-3-arrested-in-double-slaying-maryland-teens.html

Sad, but many people never learn to be careful who they hang out with. The Eagle scout will never have that opportunity now.

Agreed with Chadamus.

Sorry to hear about the Scout's eye. Hope all is okay.

 

Regarding the death's at Northern Tier, they were from my area. It was a female ASM and a Scout. The young man went to my brother's unit's CO but both were part of a different troop. The deaths were well-reported in North Texas. Happened June of last year. Must be the same event unless NT lost 4 people last year. 

 

The Ponil Canyon incident is something every Philmont crew, ranger and staff person should always have at the forefront of their mind. IMHO it could have been avoided with better training and logistics.

Thank you. As mentioned, we are waiting to see about the eye.

Thank you for telling me about NT. The sister crew was from Carollton, and the ASM was a female. I believe they are Troop 121.  If I recollect correctly, you are from that area, so perhaps we are talking about the same incident.

I agree with your last point entirely, but I would expand it beyond Philmont, as I would with the NT incident. And it needs to come through scout resources rather than media reports. I have taken the online hazardous weather training twice and I cannot recall any significant mention of falling trees, for example, although there is talk about flash flooding. But not enough. We were in a trail camp last week where the campsites were not well marked. I could tell from the soil that significant areas of the camp had experienced flooding at some recent time. And I knew that not through any kind of training or information I learned through scouting. It would have been easy just to throw off the packs and camp there because it was flat and sandy. First thing that popped into my mind was the Ponil Canyon flood. But if Philmont won't talk about it, how will less experienced scouts know what to look for?

I am sorry this happened to you and your scouts. I fully understand your outrage and frustration. And thank you for caring enough to persevere and help get the pack on a good footing.

Call, in this order: the police, the CO, and the council.

+1 more on no news media.

If she did this to your pack, she will do it to other children's organizations. She has has shown a pattern of behavior and there has been fairly consistent reward for negative behavior. You get more of what you reward. Without negative consequences she will continue to behave in this manner.

We live in a well off area. One of the mothers is a kleptomaniac. She got caught stealing from other mothers' purses at a wedding. Then at a funeral. And she stole from a charity. She just kept at it until somebody not only caught her, but she got in trouble with the law. Now they are moving because everyone knows and nobody trusts her with anything. But at least in her new neighborhood they will know if they do their background check.

It is also a good lesson for your boys to learn.

Go to any professionally managed pool or beach and every lifequard will be carrying-and using-a whistle. There is a reason for that. And I don't see lifeguarding a BSA swim event as any different in this respect. I think somebody at National Camp School is still carrying baggage from when they didn't make the lifeguard cut as a teenager.

I tend to Stosh's position: money in the bank is of no benefit to the scouts.

That having been said....we have kind of a lot of money in the bank. We have it segregated out into several funds. We have a scholarship fund, we have a fund for replacing the troop truck when the time comes, a fund for capital improvements to church property that we have been promised we can make some day, etc.

And it came in handy this year when we had several thousand dollars of repair work put into the current troop truck that we weren't expecting.

However, given your description of your troop's fortunes, I would be inclined to put it back into the scouts.

Some ideas for spending down:

1. Subsidize high adventure and/or summer camp to provide those boys that experience while the troop is a going entity.

2. Purchase new equipment (tents, stoves, etc.) for the troop.

3. Ask the CO if there is some outreach or other youth ministry that can use a donation.

4. Purchase unit specific uniform items. For example, we have hats, patches, name tags, etc. unique to our troop. You might also have other things like neckerchiefs.

5. Pay for some promotional type activities to raise the community profile of your troop. For example, you might help sponsor a July 4th parade or something.

Actually, 1, 4, and 5 might also help boost membership in addition to spending down the treasury.