SpEdScouter

Actually, in addition to MOS we also have the largest OA lodge in the country, Tamegonit Lodge 147, and we have a much higher than average Eagle scout rate, or so national keeps telling us.  MOS is also at Pony express Council and they have NO OA lodge.  There are also offshoots of MOS in the Tribe of Lone Bear over at Camp Arrowhead and others more distantly related.  

 

As a person who was born, raised and works in the KC Metro, in the business world, being an Eagle Scout, Tribesman of MOS,and/or an Arrowman of Tamegonit Lodge 147 all get you to the top of my list at interview time.  Heck, when I got my current job 4 years ago, one of the interview questions was about my tribal name in MOS.  All the prime movers in law, banking, construction, government, etc. are either MOS folks or have given enough time and or treasure to the council to know what it is about.  

 

It clearly benefits the boys, as our average scout goes to 5 years of summer camp and makes at least life scout.  It is much like a fraternal organization and the higher-ups are all adults.  But then our OA Lodge is a well run, boy lead endeavor and both programs benefit from the association.  I am an adult advisor to the OATR of our troop and assist at the Chapter level and with the Lodge Ceremonial team, and I encourage all the scouts that have the opportunity, to take advantage of both programs.

 

BSA is aware and has been for tens of decades.  Just like scouting in general, Mic-O-Say is for everyone, but not everyone is for Mic-O-Say.

 

just my 2 cents.  YMMV and all that.

You are right but let's face it, Bartle as a scout camp is VERY lacking. Bad food. Disgusting latrines. Weak programming (ex. no carnival nights or entertainers). But what keeps Bartle going with about a 90% return rate (scouts returning year after year) along with low staff turnover - is Micosay.

All those things you say Micosay teaches are true. Friendship. Discipline, Morals. Business networking. You work hard for your rank advancement and paint and you contribute much to scouting.

BUT, Micosay has become the crutch that keeps Camp Bartle going. Because of Micosay their is no incentive to Bartle staff to make improvements or even listen to the scout leaders.

I'll give you a big example. The latrines. They are the worst smelling and disgusting I've ever seen on a campground. Notice though the camp directors dont use them. They use the bathroom in the Micosay lodge or the pool. (Sidenote - we had a scout who wouldnt poop in the latrines and went 3 days and ended up getting constipation and being sent home.)

Or the food. Its mediocre at best, terrible is the norm. Leadership might eat a little in the dining hall but they have their own separate kitchen back in the directors area. But why improve?

Also leadership at Bartle (at least at Lone Star) makes no effort to be involved with scouters or general activities at the camp. You never see them down at the lakefront or coming down to the campsites to sit on a board of review or even sit down and talk to the scouts. (another sidenote - I've been to other youth camps where the directors ARE involved. They get to know campers and parents. They go to activities. They take their share of pies in the face and water balloons.)

It might not be what Micosay is about - but it IS what it has become. A crutch that keeps Camp Bartle going.

Do you all attend the same summer camp every summer, more than one in the summer, or switch around camps?

Who decides?

Stosh, there is quite a rank/promotion structure in MOS.   Several tiers, lots of different beads, paint on claw tips, honors, etc. The youth have their track, the adults theirs.   In the adult arena, it is very political and close knit, almost like a fraternal order.

Yes, they have their secrets. Look at this page, It says under the title "Keeper of the Sacred Bundle" that "By tradition, the most important responsibilities of a Keeper of the Sacred Bundle are never detailed in print."

Looks to be organized to be more adult led than OA.    So why then is there an OA in this council?  Or is that for the boys that can get into an honor society on a vote rather than good-old-boys invitations? 

 

And what happens to the boys that never get an invitation?

Your right it is more adult led than OA. In fact if you look on their main page, you see the larger events are really adult get togethers.They make a big deal of the native american garb paint on the plastic claws on their lanyards.

ok, well first, other than the OP, who said it was a secret society?  My experience with the Tribe of my youth and the OA today is that a parent or leader that makes a concerned query about the program will get the information they want to make a decision.  Participation is voluntary.

 

Next, the things I mentioned are available through Boy Scouting but were expanded and increased through my participation in the Tribe.  I grew up in a very small town, being in the Tribe gave me multiple opportunities far beyond what I received through the Troop alone.  Mic-O-Say, like OA and Venturing and Sea Scouting are programs to help keep older youth engaged with Scouting so we can meet the mission.  I stayed in scouting, and became an Eagle, because of the Tribe.

 

Finally, since when is scouting about honors to place on a resume or college application????

Walk, you said you were in Micosay back in the 80's? Have you been to Bartle lately?

Is it voluntary? Yes and no. As I said when one goes to Bartle every staff member and nearly all scouts are members so "influence" and pressure to join is pretty high. As I said earlier nearly all the nightly campfires are Mic events and most meals have Mic call outs. So how can one say its strictly voluntary when its pushed so much?

At NO TIME when I have been there the last 3 years has any leader said "You do not need to join Micosay".

To fully see the impact of the Micosay organization on the life of Camp Bartle and the scouts involved you have to be there to believe it.

On Day 4 of camp (see page 24 of the program here) is "Call out Night". On that day leaders of Micosay in tribal attire, walk around the various camps, shake hands with troop leaders, and say "Thank you for bringing down new recruits". Yes "recruits". Not new Scouts, but "recruits". ALL scouts and adults are required to attend this campfire. It is a 2 hour ceremony where different scouts are called out to be Foxmen, Warriors, Braves, etc... At no time are "Scouts" recognized for say becoming first class or life or eagle or anything. Its all Micosay.

Only on 2 nights of the 10 day camp at Bartle is there anything close to being what other scout camps would call a regular evening campfire program of funny skits, singing, and entertainment.(see page 30 here). Even that is almost all the Micosay people doing there stuff (ex. the "Firebuilders" come in to light the fire). At meals from day 4 on they call out the Warriors because that part of camp for them involves having a stick in their mouth while they do 24 hours of silence and do various work projects throughout the camp. At night they are lead away for a secret initiation. On days 6 and 8 they have their braves and warriors ceremonial but no alternative campfire programs for scouts (they do open the BMX track).

I have asked what Bartle would be like if it wasn't for Micosay. The answer is it might not even be there seeing how other scout camps have closed or they would have had to change direction to say allow outside groups to camp there. Micosay keeps a steady stream of campers and adults (and money) coming thru its gates. The tribesmen (you will see the warriors and braves working as part of their initiation) clean the grounds and do various maintenance projects. Micosay cuts down on discipline issues. I never see graffiti at Bartle. Micosay means most staff are older so many classes are taught by 18 year olds. Of course that means Bartle has to devote fewer resources to camp maintenance and programming because tribesmen never complain if say the food is bad or the merit badge classes are lacking.

At NO TIME at Bartle does the head Medicine man EVER tell Scouts they do not have to be in Micosay. They do tell them if they are not called to come back next year.

I was in a Mic-O-Say spin off (combination of Mic-O-Say and OA actually) at the summer camp I attended as a youth (70s into the 80s).  The Scout Exec that created the program in the old Southeast Iowa Council came from HOAC.  Frankly, it was a great program.  The paint stations were a draw for many older youth to continue coming to camp and stay involved in scouting.  When the rest of scouting was struggling with the ISP, we were at camp!  Adult association, youth fellowship, personal development, youth leadership, service to council and camp, and strong value system reinforcement.  Yeah, it was terrible.

 

The traditions were reserved for members but concerned parents and/or adult leaders could certainly see what was going on by simply asking.  I don't recall any units that didn't have at least one adult in the Tribe.  I also don't recall many parents asking questions.  

 

Sorry, I hear sour grapes from the OP trying to indict a program that's been around almost as long as the BSA has been.

It has been around but only in the HOA district. If one wore their claws in say California they wouldnt know what they are.

And I think its a little more than "sour grapes". When you go to Bartle you have to sit thru an endless barrage of Mic stuff like speeches, dancing, callouts and all that. As an adult just try and talk to a group of Mic people and see how quickly you are shunned.

When it comes down to it Mic works to keep older scouts involved and adults involved and of course, paying money in.

I attended summer camp at Bartle in the '80s as an adult, and became a member of Mic O Say.

 

It is a neat organization.   However, I recall a very heavy-handed "us/them" spirit in the camp.   Instead of displaying a respectful quiet pride, many MOS members lorded their status over the non-MOS often.   Scouts and scouters.   At times it bordered on being obnoxious.

 

The OA has been guilty of this in the past as well. 

 

I have no problem with organizations like MOS and OA, but good grief, carry yourself with some dignity if you get chosen.    The put downs and puffed up attitudes reflect poorly.

I'd like to ask, what do you think you gained from Micosay? I've talked to several members and they have admitted their is really little advantage in real life outside Bartle. it doesnt help you get into college or a job.

I mean think of it. If you were in say New York and you had your Micosay necklace with all your beads and your painted claws, they wouldnt know its meaning.

My son just got back from Bartle and he said he was really getting tired about how much they pushed Mikosay down there. For those of you not in the Heart of America district the Tribe of Mikosay http://www.hoac-bsa.org/mic-o-say is a local scouting honor society similar to Order of the Arrow.

Now I really have no problem with the group but its just that they push it so much. At Camp Bartle they have specific areas where only Mikosay members can enter (granted they are very small). Almost every evenings campfire was centered around Mikosay (callouts and such) especially nights 4,6 and 8. Non-members have to sit thru it anyways. Mikosay members have a different method of praying at meals. At campfires they separate out the Mikosay (called tribesmen) and non-Mikosay members.  My son really was tired of it all (he has been asked to join twice). As an adult leader down there you get the cold shoulder from members sometimes if your not wearing the claws and I get asked alot why I am not a member.  To see the influence you can check out the Bartle program guide here. Every time you see pictures of Scouts in Indian attire, those are all Mikosay. The Indian Lore merit badge is targeted for those entering Mikosay.

Frankly I really do not see much benefit from the group other than keeping the person closely involved in scouting even as adults. Part of the reason we go to Bartle in the first place is most of the scout leaders are Mikosay members.

I feel Scouting should be an inclusive organization and Mikosay is the closest thing to being a "secret society" within the organization. Most of the ceremonies and all their buildings are closed to non-members. Members are sworn to secrecy. It creates a "your not one of us" situation unique to this one scout camp.

I think the OP's points are WHY we still need Scouting. Years ago we kids did some similar things but you know what? We lived in an area which had rural or undeveloped areas around us so we could do such things. Nowadays my kids and most others live in suburbs where every yard is mowed and landscaped and fenced off and building a treehouse practically requires a city permit.

So we need Scouting to get the kids outside and doing things.

I think the publicity behind this has embarrassed the GSA. I've posted this discussion on other boards and GSA admits their program is severely lacking in rugged outdoors activities. They defend their GSA program and claim that their program is what the girls wanted and supposedly, the girls voted out the camping component.

I will say the GSA has at least put a face on emphasizing more camping. For the first time since the 70's their is now a girl scout knife offered on their website. Still no girl scout axe though which they DID have in 1953. In fact they now offer way more camping essentials that even 5 years ago.

This is also ignoring the fact that many girls also participate in Cub Scouts with their brothers.

You can always build an observation hive. Basically a hive with 1 side being glass so you can see them at work.

The problem with beekeeping is they are alot of work and someone has to be inc charge of maintaining them.

I have an idea.

What if there was a badge or reward specifically for each state that the Scouts could earn? This badge would be issued maybe by the state itself to Scouts who have visited, camped at, and hiked a certain amount of designated sites in that state. Sites could include state, national, and local parks, scenic areas, military bases, and historical sites. What I'd like to see is an emphasis on the outdoor attractions and nature with less emphasis on indoor attractions. Granted states like California could have more than one. I think it would be a great way for the Scouts to explore their own states and maybe get badges for as many other states as they could?

Just an idea.

So I'd like to ask your opinion on such a badge and does any state do something already like this? The closest I've seen is at the Kansas Cosmosphere which has Scout programs.

Well we are from Kansas and nobody here as far as I know has done the A.T. I just thought it would be a great high adventure trip.

Thing is from what your saying is its best to have people along who have already done it. For example this thing with the shelters. Plus I hear the AT can be pretty crowded at times and have quite a party culture.

Maybe we should try something else.

Has any Scout troops out there done the Appalachian trail or could you give some insights into such a trip?

You think OA is bad, try Micosay. This is a similar honor society in the Heartland area that I cannot see any real advantage for other than keeping older scouts involved. Other than that I see no college scholarships and no business networking opportunities.

But go to Bartle and they look down on you if your not wearing the claws.

Now at least with OA I've seen them do alot with mentoring and helping the scouts with business and personal goals.

 

"raw biscuit dough from a can?"

 

Try this link: http://www.pillsbury.com/products/biscuits

 

The main problem we have in the UK is you look on the internet for dutch oven recipes, and so it's all a cup of this, and a cup of that, whereas we tend to use weights and volumes. On the other hand, you can buy your american cup measures over here, and I guess on camp it might be easier, we certainly don't take scales, though we might have a measuring jug, so things can be a bit vague at times. And it's probably a personal thing, but all this "8 briquettes on the bottom, 12 on top" business? Stick it on the fire! stop mucking about!

 

 

Ian

Well for a Dutch oven you often need as much heat on the top as you do on the bottom so thats why you put some coals on top.

Arab American in the room here ...

 

There's a dish called kibbee made of cracked wheat and ground meat (traditionally lamb, beef will do, but if you've caught a deer well with grinding a pound for this recipe). Spices/fillings include garlic, onions, pine nuts or cashews, and peppermint.

 

It cooks up quite nicely in a foil pack or in a shallow D/O.

 

Also stuffed grape leaves are pretty awesome if picked in the spring! Lots of recipies for that too.

 

Oh, and then there's the pizzelle iron. I have a short-handled one that fits in my camp-box. On the bucket list: learning to grind spices (wild anise, etc ...) on the trail.

Kibbee sounds interesting. Hmmm. stuffed grape leaves. Only had that at restaurants so should be interesting at a campfire.

Pizzelle? I looked that up. Is that a kind of waffle?

Thanks for the replies so far.

We had a camporee this weekend and I thought it would be interesting to give demonstrations about doing traditional Asian or at least non traditional foods on the campfire. For example it would be interesting to see what Japanese, Korean, Chinese, or Indian Scouts would eat on a campfore. But also say Pakistani, Russian, Polish, French, or Italian scouts would eat. You can get kind of an idea when you watch videos of the World Scouting Jamboree.

I'd like to ask our international friends what unique foods they eat around the campfire that we might not see in the USA.

For example, we sometimes cook food in foil. This is where you put your meat and vegatables in foil, wrap them up, and put them in the fire to cook. Then you eat right out of the foil. Do you do that?

Do you cook in what we call a "Dutch oven"?

Do you cook in cast iron?

A common breakfast is what we call a "hobo meal". That is shredded potatoes, sausage, eggs, topped with cheese cooked in a dutch oven. What would you call that?

Do you do s'mores?  Do you do marshmallows?

If your Scouts were to skewer or somehow attach a piece of food on a stick (like Americans do hot dogs) and then hold it over a fire to cook it, what would it be?

Have your Scouts ever caught fish, then ate them that night for dinner?

Do your Scouts cook from the basic ingredients at a campsite or do they bring some food pre-prepared? For example raw biscuit dough from a can?

I support you all in pushing to keep the camp but OTOH, you all should double your efforts to bring in more funding or increase the use of the camp.

Any chance you could encourage other Scout groups to camp there?

I'd say it would be better to have some sort of emergency radio. Sending 2-4 scouts 20 miles away to find help would be crazy and besides, how often are we more than an hour or two away from where we can get help? Efven at Philmont arent they no more than 3-4 hours away from a checkpoint? Maybe a better plan is to teach someone how to get to a high point and call for help?

Thing is if a troop is truly "Scout lead" you as an adult need to be willing to sit back and allow for some mistakes, some goofing off, and a little less quiet formality.

I learned this because we recently moved from one troop that was heavily adult led to one that was way more scout led and we had our first Court of Honor last weekend. Boy what a difference.

In the adult one it was all very solemn, quiet, formal. Adult leaders handed out every badge and ran the ceremony. Everything was neat and trim and by the numbers. Exactly what you'd expect from a troop lead by adults age 50 plus.

The boy led... well... the boys well they actually did fairly well. The scouts were the emcees and announced all the badges and such and the scouts came up and received them but after awhile things kind of started to break down. The boys got acting silly and goofy and at the end they had to make the boys clean up the area where they were sitting.

But, that is the nature of boys. You cannot expect perfect discipline. In the end all of the awards were given to whom deserved them which is what the event was all about. But things were not exactly "formal".

Odd thing is the other troop always claimed to be scout lead and some things were but you could easily tell it was adults who really ran things. For example the SPL was basically his Dad's little parrot and his Dad was always like "ok Brandon - tell them this..." and Brandon never made a decision without first asking his Dad's approval.

So lesson learned. To be truly "boy lead" expect some chaos.

I'd like to ask you all, how many of you have seen girls doing cub scout, webelos and boy scout activities "under the table"?