SlowDerbyRacer

probably dodge ball...

which by the way has I think been among the most fun our boys have had in all of scouts so far....

I almost mentioned dodgeball, but was posting during a meeting and had to cut it short.  Dodgeball should be a required rite of passage - right up there with learning to swim and ride a bike.

So, new to the forum, but a situation came up recently where we were doing the sporting event thing for Games Tigers Play (cub scouts Tiger requirement).

 

One of the parents disagreed with the sporting event I chose (asked for input multiple times, didn't get any) and decided not to show up.  Now her son is in jeopardy of not receiving his belt loop.  Do I just ask them to go to an event of their choice and do A B and C or is this a situation where I need to bring the whole den again?

 

It seems unfair to the kids who took the time to meet to have to meet again due to this one parent's decision.

How do you disagree with a sporting event played by a den?  Please share the rest of the story.  Is soccer or kickball against someone's religion?  About the only sports I could legitimately see someone complain about are those with full contact - tackle football, rugby, etc.  Sounds like you might a have a future problem parent on your hands if they have issues with something this early and this benign. 

Yes, you can build a program from the Den up.  I built a Pack of 40 out of a Den of 7 (the Pack Meeting after the Blue/Gold/Webelos Crossover, the only 7 boys there were my den).  Do good, get trained,

 

Do the "old leaders" have older kids, and are on their way out?  Or are they hanging on for reasons?  If they'll be gone in a year or two, ignore them.  If they're the old coot who's been Cubmaster for 20 years, run away.  Never going to move that mountain.

 

Unit Commissioners don't exist.  Ignore unregistered committee members, so long as the Committee Chair has three members registered, they're good.

 

Does this Pack camp?  If not, do it. 

 

Once you start getting a good reputation for your group, help will come.  The other parents in your Den will be the first people you recruit, to be Den Leaders for little brothers, to take over fundraising, to get trained.  Then next year you expand to the younger parents, and so on.  When your Pack has a good reputation in the community, you'll get a few A#1-level parents/leaders attention, and that's all you need to get the ball rolling on its own for another 10 years.

^^^^^ This.  And excellent use of "old coot."

I want to take a slightly different slant on our traditional recruiting related discussions.  Most seem to focus recruiting tactics, retention concerns, general decline in scouting interest, etc.  And I just saw another post which mentioned declining numbers.  

Whenever I see complaints like that I want to ask - how big is your area you are drawing from?  Are you competing with other packs?  To me I wonder if many of the problems are quality of program driven, or if it's because there are too few kids to draw from.  In my case our local pack pretty much aligns with our elementary school.  That's our territory and we're successful.  I can't imagine trying to run a pack with a target area any smaller than that.  But I suspect there might be other packs that tie to a church, for example.  In that case, they "territory" is the congregation, but they're also competing with all the local school packs.  In those cases maybe the competition is just too stiff and the pack is fighting a losing battle to stay afloat?

What do you all see as your territory?  Is it the right size?  What do think the ideal is?

 I see posts like this occasionally and they often share common complaints - poor leadership, little support from district, infighting among leaders, etc.  In all cases I advise looking at things from the scout perspective and find your solutions there.  In my opinion, the committee, district, and all the other "stuff" associated with supporting scouting is usually superfluous.  You can provide kids with a tremendous scouting experience with nothing more than the rank book to guide you.  That can be at the den level.  If you can pull enough dens together for a quality pack, then great, but reality is dens drive the scouting experience.  While far from ideal, you can have a great den within a weak pack.  My suggestion is to start focusing on the kids' experiences and let the success build out, rather than trying to improve top down.  Training and rules are nice, but frankly still less important than a kid focused group just working through the book activities.

Its a tough decision considering the AOL was the Cubs top award.  Hard presses for someone to come in one year and earn it in my opinion.  There are some that are dedicated.  Its like a 17 year only coming in and earning Eagle

I'm not completely up to speed with the detail of the new requirements.... but my read is that if you consider it worthy, award them and count them

He's new.  It's cubs, He's making progress towards "adventures"

so what does it really matter?

 

This business about AOL being the "Top Award".  It aint that way any more with the new program, and personally I think all of that was hype anyway.  

It wasn't that hard to get in the old program, it was just the natural thing to do after WEBELOS while waiting for crossover.  My son earned his early on last year, with the exception of the time requirement after 4th grade, the troop visit, and the SM conference.... all not long after finishing the WEBELOS badge.... and honestly he wasn't really trying all that hard.  To me earning the Compass Points would have been a much more challenging honor to claim.

I agree with blw2 here.  AOL is now really just another rank.  Top Award is currently is a misnomer.  "Final Award" might be a more accurate term under the new program.  And I disagree with JasonG172 about it being akin to a 17 year old joining and becoming Eagle.  Eagle is a cumulative accomplishment.  AOL currently has nothing that is cumulative.  There are no prerequisites to it under the current standards.

The standards say:

Tiger—Must be under the age of 8, have completed kindergarten or be in the first grade, or be age 7.

 

There are three different things that allow a boy to join TIgers:  Age 7, completed kindergarden, or be in first grade.

 

To be a Cub, you have to complete first grade, or be age 8 and 9.

 

6 is plenty old to be a Tiger. That said, parents should be supervising their Tigers most of the time. 

I'm going to call you out on a technicality here.  You treat Tiger and "Cub" (I assume Wolf & Bear together) as 2 distinct groups.  Tigers are cub scouts and shouldn't be treated as a lesser class.  I see comments like yours frequently and it dates back to when Tiger Cubs were first formed ~30 years ago.  Back then they were a true distinct class with different uniforms, different meeting structures, etc.  Today they should be fully integrated into the pack.  It's especially the case with the new program where the adventure loop model is consistent from Tiger through Bear.  The only concessions made to their younger age (that I can think of at the moment) are the requirement that they have a parent partner and they can't do the STEM program.

So far, I see a lot of imbalance between Wolf Adventures.

Some seem almost too dense, others seem rather weak in contrast.

 

The Den Leader Guide has a lot of superfluous fluff that might work for small dens in small packs not in a rush to earn rank by Blue & Gold.

 

Also, as a Pack we have switched the awarding of belt loops to the den meetings in order to save time and have found it neccessary to purchase all the required belt loops on the front end of the programming year, utilizing the loops as instant recognition in much the same way as we used the 'progress beads' in the past.

I agree with you on the Wolf.  The other thing that stands out to me about the Wolf is the duplication across adventures.  Just a cursory look found the following examples:

- At least 2 cases of doing skits/campfire programs

- At least two cases of reciting the Outdoor Code

- At least two cases of drawing a neighborhood map.

From the FAQ:

 

Q: How should recognition take place?

A: Boys must be recognized as soon as possible after completing an adventure – and a badge of rank. Pocket certificates are available as well as devices for adventures (adventure loops and adventure pins) and cloth badges of rank. Your pack may establish a practice that makes sense for its members. Two possible examples:

• Presenting the device (adventure loop or adventure pin) at a den meeting immediately after completion, and presenting pocket certificates at the next pack meeting

• Presenting pocket certificates when the award is completed and bestowing the device at the next pack meeting

 

In any case, no boy should be required to wait more than two weeks to be recognized and to receive his award.

 

You can find that restated in this Roundtable guide from February:  http://www.scouting.org/filestore/program_update/doc/201502_Topic_Guide.doc

Thanks for this link.  It'll be good to show one of our den leaders who always waits until the end of year to award the rank badges so all the scouts "can earn it together."  That always irked me.

Let's look at this seasonal question a different way.  As I stated above kids are able to drop in and out as they wish over the course of their 5 cub years.  But I'll acknowledge, as @@ProScouter06 alluded to, that many don't do that nor are they even aware it's a viable option.  I suspect part of the reason is the structure of cub scouts.  Under the long established system, if a kid misses a rank, for any reason, it can never be earned.  Kids can't go back.  Contrast that with boy scouts which has no set time constraints for each rank.  I'm sure many kids don't join or rejoin cub scouts because they think they missed something important.  Plus it probably bothers some kids who will always have a gap on their uniform where that missed rank badge would go.  In the sports comparison, if a kid misses a season of soccer, it isn't broadcast loudly on his jersey when he does come back. 

I'm not sure I yet have a solution or even if I think the current system should be changed, but it might be something that warrants more conversation.

I've always wished bsa would piolit a seasonal option for cub scouts just like youth sports. An entire generation of new parents see youth activities run in a seasonal time frame with a start date and an end date, fall and spring. Then they join cub scouts and the start day is 7 years old and end date is 10 years old... Years or commitment vs a more flexible time commitment.

In many ways it is already seasonal.  Nowhere does it say you need to start at 7 and finish at 10.  There are currently 5 distinct "seasons".  You can start in season 1 (Tiger), skip season 2 (Wolf) and pick up again at season 3 (Bear).  There are no prerequisites to any rank or year.  A kid can come and go as he pleases.  And most packs take summers off from formal advancement activities.

And regarding your youth sports comparison and desire for more flexible time commitments, I'd argue scouting is already far more flexible.  In sports, try missing a bunch of practices and see where that gets you.  If a scout misses a bunch of den meetings, he'll get the same opportunity to participate when he does finally show up.

At what point do you draw the line?

 

We are planning to repeat the 3 mile hike and cast iron cooking during a regular (extended) den meeting.  But I guess my thought is if they miss it a second time, they need to do it on their own.  After another month or so, the weather here will be rather unpredictable.

 

We also only had 2 scout show up to do the grocery shopping portion of the Cast Iron Chef.  I think for that they can make it up with their families.  That should not be difficult for anyone.  

I think you draw the the line at 2 attempts, definitely no more than 3.  At some point there needs to be the expectation that kids will make the effort and/or commitment to attend events if scouting is a priority.  It's perfectly ok for kids to prioritize other things (sports, music, family time, etc), but they need to recognize the pack can't rearrange for them.  There's nothing wrong with participating when you can and just not earning the rank.  Scouting does not have to be about earning rank and checking off requirements.

We've done both approaches.  Some things have a "with your den" requirement which essentially requires a repeat.  Now there will come a point where you can't rearrange everything for a small number of kids and they may just need to lose out.  In your example, since there was a date change, I think you should repeat as a courtesy.  One approach might be having a special meeting for just those who missed the first time around.  We've done that before.

Option B - Go find another park that isn't as crowded.

Under the new program, other than shared book and electives, the Webelos Program and AOL program are effectively separate.

 

So the usual year to get through the Webelos Badge and another 6-9 months to get through AOL seem to fit the program guides very well.  Getting through the minumum 7 activity badges should be possible without too much hair loss.

 

As for academics, I've always seen the Webelos Activity badges as more vocational and hobby oriented - much like the Boy Scout merit badges.  The new program really is geared to helping the Webelos better prepare for what to expect when they get to Boy Scouts - I think it will do that, but we'll have to wait a year or three to really know.

Not really.  You could theoretically do all your Webelos and AOL requirements and electives intermixed throughout year one.   (Or at least most of the AOL requirements - I don't have the book nearby to check but maybe the Duty to God requirement might need to be done in year 2 - unsure) .  And then all year 2 would need to be is the 6 months of active den participation (and I think some other ancillary requirements like child protection or other.)

In terms of discipline, I would argue that Scouts is a much better source of discipline training than sports (and my boys have been involved in both). 

My own personal jury is still out on this one.  Part of the reason is we may not be using the same definition of discipline.  I'm both a coach and cub leader and I've yet to find a consistently good way to drive and reinforce proper behaviors in a scouting environment (help & suggestions welcome).  Granted my experience on the sports side is much more extensive.  A practice/game is a very different setting than a meeting/camp out.  For example, I'm not a yeller on the sports field but can still use my voice to convey urgency, expectations, dissatisfaction, and to motivate.  And at times a whistle is an effective tool.  But with scouts we're often in a more controlled environment and I don't feel I can often use the same tools.  And I feel scouts has more problem kids than sports.  Or perhaps I should more accurately say more problem behaviors.  I'm thinking specifically of cases were kids lack focus and self control.  It sure is prevalent in our pack with a few kids.  On a sports field the behavior would not be tolerated, but as scouting is generally more accepting, we need to do more to manage through it.   

Part of my conflict is I don't think my personal style on a sports field works in a scout setting.  I like to encourage energy and enthusiasm, call it a "let's go get 'em" approach.  And when necessary, I don't know how or why, I can quickly bring a team back under control for a serious coaching point or other calmer activity.  In scouting I find once the kids get the energy level up it becomes a runaway freight train and all control is lost. 

I'd say that I might have a different position because I was a cub master, but this is a cub forum, so ...

 

I do not even begin to try to compete with Sports.

When I recruit, do a Join Scouting night, or even talk it up at the Grocery Store; I emphacise that (Cub) Scouting is here to support the family.  Not to become an extra headache. 

 

If Sports, seasonal or otherwise, is important to the family, and they have to miss events - that's OK; we are here to support the family.  Our den leaders will be happy to let you know what they are working on, so that the Boy can work on these things at home, or, they boy can just participate as they can - with the understanding that they may not complete the rank badge; we just ask them to let the Den leader know for planning purposes.  Once they understand that they (the Scout) do not have to complete a rank award to move up the the next level - it's all by Grade/Age, I don't usually get any pushback.

 

The key is to manage the parent's and Scouts expectations.  (And to do a good job recruiting at all levels and ages so that Scout isn't the only one in the Bear den without the Wolf badge).  If they really want the rank AND sports, they have to be willing to put in the extra effort.

 

Now Boy Scouts, on the other hand may be a different issue; not because of the problems with self-paced advancement, but based on a boy who accepts a leadership role, has to be able to perform that role - sports or not.

This is a great approach.

 

 

 

I'd argue that perhaps that boy you describe will have that conflict no matter if he starts 1st grade, 3rd grade, 5th grade, or....

He's always going to be overextended.... most likely is a sporty kid from a sporty family that will most likely prioritize sports over scouts anyway....

Well it's only anecdotal evidence, but in our school and pack there is a subgroup of 4 now 2nd graders that all have a similar profile - are good friends, same neighborhood, same interests and generally the same activities.  Three of the boys started scouts last year as Tigers.  The 4th didn't start at the beginning because the family wasn't familiar with it, but by October last year mom, dad, and kid were all saying they'd sign up the following year.  That was the consistent chorus through about mid-summer.  When it was time to start the scout year again, kids 1,2, & 3 were all in.  Kid #4 never joined because the parents were concerned with conflicting activities in the fall.  In my mind, had that kid started as a Tiger, he'd still be a scout.

Five pages in and I don't recall seeing anyone mentioning one of the elephants in the room - The cost of higher education.  How many scholarships do colleges and universities give out for Scouting?  How many do they give out for Athletics?  Yes - it's going to be pretty unlikely that a High Schooler is going to get a scholarship for football or basketball but schools offer scholarships for a lot of sports other than football and basketball.  Hardly anyone pays any reall attention to soccer, or baseball, or swimming, or tennis, or lacrosse (etc., etc.) yet all of these sports have scholarships from most schools that offer these sports.

 

Had a tenant that offers elite volleyball training - their sales pitch to the kids is Olympics - their sales pitch to parents is Scholarships. 

And one more thing - sales pitch is the operative expression.  Your tenant is a business person trying to make money off the dreams of parents and kids.

Five pages in and I don't recall seeing anyone mentioning one of the elephants in the room - The cost of higher education.  How many scholarships do colleges and universities give out for Scouting?  How many do they give out for Athletics?  Yes - it's going to be pretty unlikely that a High Schooler is going to get a scholarship for football or basketball but schools offer scholarships for a lot of sports other than football and basketball.  Hardly anyone pays any reall attention to soccer, or baseball, or swimming, or tennis, or lacrosse (etc., etc.) yet all of these sports have scholarships from most schools that offer these sports.

 

Had a tenant that offers elite volleyball training - their sales pitch to the kids is Olympics - their sales pitch to parents is Scholarships. 

I am as pro sports as it gets, but if you factor in any possibility of a sports scholarship into your justification for participating as a kid, you are as backwards as it it gets and part of the problems that are raised in this thread and in debates all across the country.

 

• • Recruiting too young forces an early choice between scouts and sports.  

In the interest of time I'll comment on just this piece for now.  I disagree 100%.  If you wait the decision has already been made.  And it's not just sports, it could be any other potentially conflicting activity.  If a kid can't join scouts until say 3rd grade, the issue becomes "Johnny you can't do scouts because already have x, y, & z."  By recruiting early, you at least can get in the door with some you might not have otherwise seen if the start was later.

Our new Webelos Den Leader was also an excellent Wolf and Bear Den Leader. 

 

I got him the new Webelos handbook and Program Helps for Webelos,  and he asked how he could get through all the material in the new program.

 

 

That has been my concern about the new program too  --- it seems like FAR too much detail is expected of Cub Scouts and Den Leaders.

 

 

In my view, the heart of Scouting is to learn to live by the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Boys discover that if they are going to go camping,  they NEED to live by the Scout Oath and Law to be successful and avoid killing each other out of frustration!

 

 

So in my view,  all the academic junk in Cub Scouts is really optional.  The priorities are that boys learn how to get along with each other and with adults, and how to be decent to other people,  and to learn to Do Your Best.  If you learn that,  you have learned most of what's important in Cub Scouts.

 

The PROGRAM ought to provide some of the grist for learning those values.

 

 

Instead, the academic program has eaten the Scouting program almost whole.

 

In my view,  the proper priorities in Cub Scouts should be 1)  HAVING FUN   2. Learning to get along with other boys and adults  3)  Being in the habit of doing your best

 

 

Cub Scouts seems to be getting farther and farther away from those values and priorities.

 

 

Incidentally,  I rarely hear much in the way of comments about Girls Scout program.  It seems that Girls Scouts are free to do whatever the leaders want to do,  as long as they sell cookies.

 

I'm thinking Cub Scouts could do with leaving more up to Cub Scout Leaders and less trying to dictate a lot of detail with what they should do.

And I'll take a stab at a more serious answer too.  I like that the CS program has defined standards.  That's what allows it to be consistently recognized (unlike the GS which I commented about doesn't seem to stand for much beyond cookies to many).

Regarding the new program, I say let's give it a chance.  It needs at least a year or two for some best practices to be developed and shared.  At least initially I think the renewed emphasis on more traditional scoutcraft is a good thing.

Our new Webelos Den Leader was also an excellent Wolf and Bear Den Leader. 

 

I got him the new Webelos handbook and Program Helps for Webelos,  and he asked how he could get through all the material in the new program.

 

 

That has been my concern about the new program too  --- it seems like FAR too much detail is expected of Cub Scouts and Den Leaders.

 

 

In my view, the heart of Scouting is to learn to live by the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Boys discover that if they are going to go camping,  they NEED to live by the Scout Oath and Law to be successful and avoid killing each other out of frustration!

 

 

So in my view,  all the academic junk in Cub Scouts is really optional.  The priorities are that boys learn how to get along with each other and with adults, and how to be decent to other people,  and to learn to Do Your Best.  If you learn that,  you have learned most of what's important in Cub Scouts.

 

The PROGRAM ought to provide some of the grist for learning those values.

 

 

Instead, the academic program has eaten the Scouting program almost whole.

 

In my view,  the proper priorities in Cub Scouts should be 1)  HAVING FUN   2. Learning to get along with other boys and adults  3)  Being in the habit of doing your best

 

 

Cub Scouts seems to be getting farther and farther away from those values and priorities.

 

 

Incidentally,  I rarely hear much in the way of comments about Girls Scout program.  It seems that Girls Scouts are free to do whatever the leaders want to do,  as long as they sell cookies.

 

I'm thinking Cub Scouts could do with leaving more up to Cub Scout Leaders and less trying to dictate a lot of detail with what they should do.

And I rarely hear any comments about the Girls Scouts beyond selling cookies.  I have no idea what they do or stand for.

Shug has a hole video on pooping in the woods that is just great

 a "hole" video?  Pun intended?

A few posts have directly or indirectly question the value of sports in society from a few perspectives - as a profession, from what it contributes society, as an entertainment outlet.  Sure those can be debated, but it veers from the what I think was the original question (or at least an early tangent) and that is the value of youth sports participation - not sports professions.  Just because a kid is unlikely to be a college or professional athlete doesn't mean there isn't much to be gained from participation as a youth.  The same argument could be said about tons of other things - odds are the kid won't be a renowned physicist so why take science every day in school or the kid can't draw a stick figure so what's the value in required art?