SlowDerbyRacer

i guess this is the wrong discussion to mention how I think the tiger program has wreck the whole BSA program. Until the BSA aloud gay scouts, Tigers was the number one cause of cub adults and scouts quitting. I saw the problem back in 1995; it's just Seattles last straw.

 

Barry

Care to explain how the Tiger program has hurt scouting?  Our pack has had nothing but good experiences with it.

A good overview of the differences between STEM in scouting and STEM Scouts.

http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/05/11/understanding-the-difference-between-stem-in-scouting-and-stem-scouts/

Genuine question here, as I want to know.  I understand the philosophical debate in scouting about gay leaders, but I'm curious, how does it play out in practice?  I don't recall a question on my adult application about sexual orientation.  (Perhaps I just glossed over it?)  I imagine there are gay leaders out there who just don't make a public issue of their orientation and it's a non-issue in practice.  Does the gay thing only become a problem when someone gets wind of it and makes a stink, forcing a council to take action?

It's not the boys refusing to do daily observations. It's the parents who don't support it. So we can modify the requirements so that the scouts can learn about the subject, or we can skip the BL and the scouts learn nothing. I'm not opposed to doing activities without awards, either, but in Cub Scouts it seems silly to come so close and not give the recognition.

 

Please explain to me how there is no scientific integrity in using data collected by other scientists and applying simple statistics to facilitate conclusions? Or are you proposing that scientists are able to use only their own, original data? Because that doesn't jive with my experience as yes, a scientist. I assure you that if the cubs were to publish their conclusions, the National Weather Service would be given due credit.

For starters, you are NOT permitted to modify the requirements.  What you are permitted to do is cover the material as you are currently doing and then inform the scouts what they need to do to complete the requirement.  IF they complete the work, they can then get the BL or mark the achievement/elective as complete.  Under no circumstances is a scout entitled to award.  And they are especially not entitled to one, if they don't have the motivation to complete the requirements as listed.  You can still teach them as you are currently doing.  That definitely has benefit and is a worthy endeavor.  But your actions are part of a greater societal problem where we reward people for just showing up.  

I have found that the scouts in my den really do not have time to complete the homework I ether skip the home work part or incorporate in to the den meeting or subsitute

Direct from the 1st page of the Guide to Advancement:

Policy on Unauthorized Changes to Advancement Program No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to, or subtract from, advancement requirements. There are limited exceptions relating only to youth members with special needs. For details see section 10, “Advancement for Members With Special Needs.â€

I can't disagree with you more.

The issue with not requiring the book is you risk the scouts themselves drifting further from scouting.  The book is something tangible for scouts to pick up and read.  I realize many might never open the book, leaving the management of their scouting experience to their leaders and/or parents, but you don't want to cut off those that do read it.  Part of the purpose of cub scouting is preparing boys for boy scouts.  Having the books aids in that goal as it allows scouts to be more vested in their experience.

To me, the best way to cut the entry expense is to eliminate rank specific slides.  That's the quick and dirty option to save an annual recurring expense.  There's no need to have to buy a new slide every year. 

Yeah that's a little different don't skimp on requirements just because.

 

However in Cubs and Webelos sometimes it's hard to make the call parent assistance is required to quite a  few requirements (maybe not in the new Trail) if they are really to be fulfilled at home. In my experience that's the sticking point for a lot of the boys to fully complete stuff. Fer instance lets say, I set up Readyman two weeks in a row and make sure the parents know it's important that the boys show up both weeks, yet a couple still missed. Then despite me setting up time to be at a meeting early WITH the parents they never show up early for make up. So do we punish the boy because the parents can't bother to keep a commitment?

 

Yes, you do.  For a couple reasons:

1) What does it teach the boy if he still gets the Readyman?

2) What message does it send to the other scouts when Johnny Noshow gets his award when everyone knows he wasn't there?

The parents screwed up.  Don't compound the error by rewarding the wrong behavior.  It sucks for the one kid that his parents are deadbeats, but it doesn't create an excuse to skirt by.

To clarify my original question, I was referring more to the doing of all the requirements versus the quality of what is done.  I totally get the do your best standard, but I'm talking about how closely others follow the stated requirements.  For example, the Bear Elective for Weather has the following two items:

1. Learn how to read an outdoor thermometer. Put one outdoors and read it at the same time every day for two weeks. Keep a record of each day's temperature and a description of the weather each day (fair skies, rain, fog, snow, etc.).
2. Build a weather vane. Record wind direction every day at the same hour for two weeks. Keep a record of the weather for each day.

We had a den do a den meeting where the kids learned about reading a thermometer and built rudimentary weather vanes.  The kids were given full credit for completing these items without any need for the two week record keeping.  I have an issue with that and it has nothing to do with do your best.

I'd like to hear how closely other packs and dens follow the listed requirements for achievements, electives, belt loops, etc.  I'm definitely a do what the book says kind of guy, but I'm at the extreme in my pack.  It seems to be the norm in my pack that the scouts get credit if a topic is touched on, viewed, or is otherwise in the room when something is covered.  Our dens don't seem to hold to the letter of the law.  I recognize that sometimes staying true to the book is not always feasible given logistics and other circumstances, but I wonder how often other packs & dens stretch things?  

sure sounds like you ran an active den.  I think that's a good thing and a nice target for all den leaders to shoot for.

In our pack, the DL's aren't quite as active as that but what I see is the big miss is that on top of den meetings you ran an outing too.  Well that and putting more of the achievement off to be done at home.  The boys have gotten most of the way along through several of the required pins but there always seems to be at least something left for homework. 

 

Your story about the boy not knowing what readyman was makes me think of a recent conversation I had with a friend, who just finished up his roles as DL for a 2nd year WEB den in another pack....

I was telling him how I have have been reviewing my son's book myself, so I know what he needs to do.... so as dad, I have been steering him to complete things and he doesn't even know it... until I send him for his book and show him that he just finished Handyman, or whatever...

BUT my friend had the opinion that, in theory at least, it should be the boys reading the book and driving the bus.

I don't know that I totally disagree with him

but it was cool to see my son just having and fun and learning, not even knowing that he'll be getting a pin for it.

I think this is always going to be a point of conflicting approaches.  At the CS level both the parent led and scout led methods are needed.  I think it really depends on the scouts.  Many kids, if left to do things on their own won't do it, don't know how, aren't motivated enough, or have some other legit reason why a scout led approach is doomed to fail (at the cub scout level).  But there are other kids who can and will take the initiative to grab the book and do it all.

As parents there is a fine line between leading, guiding, helping, mentoring, encouraging versus helicoptering and doing it all for the kid.  I personally have 2 cubs who embody the two approaches.  My older one is the one who needs the direction.  I wish it wasn't the case, but I know he would do nothing without a little push.  I see it as my role to encourage and monitor the activities so he learns the valuable life skills scouting teaches.  On the other hand my younger one is gung ho as a Tiger and can't get enough.  Completely self driven, earned rank first in his den, has quite the collection of belt loops and pins, and completely "out-scouts" his older brother.

I occasionally see or hear of dens meeting once a month and I just don't get it.  When you're meeting that infrequently, how do you get into any kind of rhythm or develop any sense of den community?  And how do you come close to covering even a fractional portion of activities for a given year?  I'm talking about rank requirements and electives?  Sure, maybe you could just squeak by and do the minimal requirements for a rank badge, but are you really doing enough to provide a rich, fulfilling, and valuable experience for your scouts?  I don't see how that's possible.

I don't think it's unreasonable to minimally have 2 den meetings a month plus a pack meeting on a 3rd week.  That's less than once a week for all commitments over the course of a month.  Sports teams, theater groups, martial arts, and other similar competing activities all meet more often than that.  Maybe one of the reasons many packs are suffering is because they don't doing enough and kids don't get enough opportunity to do something truly enriching and enjoyable?  Kids drop scouts because they don't get anything out of it...

Is this for awarding the current rank award? Or for graduating to their new Cub Scout level?

 

Rank awards should be awarded when they are completed, not held up until everyone is finished.

 

Graduation to the next level should occur at the end of the school year. BSA officially moves up all Cub Scout registrations to their next level as of June 1.

 

That said, many of the following can be used for either type of ceremony. With appropriate tweaks, they can be used for either a single level, or multiple level ceremonies.

 

If you can not find what you want here, simply do an internet search on Cub Scout Ceremonies.

 

 

I agree.  We have a den that is holding up rank awards so everyone can get them together.  It irks me but I haven't made a stink about since I couldn't find a policy stating ranks should be awarded close to when it's achieved.  I did a cursory look through the Advancement Guide and couldn't find anything.

As a Scouter (and Parent) who is frequently accused of using over-the-top hyperbole to make a point, this made me laugh.

I don't see this as hyperbole at all.  It is the truth.  It's why scouting teaches first aid and life saving skills - to be able use them as necessary.   I know what you're getting at here, but reality is first aid skills do not earn a comedy badge.  I think it's good that the scouts hear what the alternative is to not learning the skills.  It many cases there is no second chance.

When my older son first crossed into a troop more than 10 years ago, the troop he joined would test the boys on their scout skills in their Board of Review and "fail" them.  They would go so far as to have ropes in the BOR and make them tie the knots.  I was a new parent at the time and thought this was the way it was done.  It wasn't until we moved an joined a different troop and I took SM Specific training when I agreed to be SM that I realized just how wrong that was.   In the old troop scouts would literally go through BORs 4 or 5 times until they "passed".

 

When I mentioned that this was wrong to some friends I still had in the troop, my friends said that they had been telling the SM and CC this for awhile, but they didn't care, this was the way their troop did it.  Crazy!

I don't agree with that approach as I accept the model of "once it's awarded, it's awarded."  However I will say that I think the hurdle to have things awarded is often too low.  I'm focused on the cubs now, but the general low standards theme is the same.  Too many times I've seen kids get recognized for something they never should have earned.  For example, if the requirement says "demonstrate" then the scout should have to demonstrate and not just be there as someone else talked about something.

Latest news from their Facebook page:

The National Executive Board approved expanding the STEM Scouts test pilot into additional councils! In the coming days, we will have a great deal more information to share.

 

This happened last week, from what I understand there will be 10 councils that this program will be rolling out to this year.

Which Facebook page are you seeing this? Because it's not on the page I follow, which I believe to be the one representing the approved national STEM/Nova program.

I am sorry to hear that your Scouts' freedom of religion upset your Scoutmaster.

This is the best line I've read on hear in a long time, maybe even ever.

What amazes me the most is that there was any resistance at all from the troop leaders. Never should have been questioned at all. Scouts are to be reverent, but nowhere is it stated they must practice a certain religion or attend a certain church. Direct from the BSA Declaration of Religious Principle:

Welcome. You say you were recruited to start a new pack. I'm curious why some felt the need the need for a new pack, especially with just 4 total wolves/bears? Not questioning, just genuinely curious into what the thoughts are behind starting new packs.

I like the form. It's an interesting idea. But I have to ask what the down side is for coming in under 100 points?

There are a number of ways to potentially address this.

1) 100+ earns the scout some type of "family participation patch"

2) Committing to 100 points at the beginning of the scout year earns a reduction in dues

3) Guilt from falling short

4) ???

My take is such a plan wouldn't necessary be to penalize families who fall short, but rather to encourage more participation. The reality is 100 points from every parent might actually be too much help.

Have you ever see anything like this parent participation form? You could base one on your packs needs from this form. The idea is that it is required that every family contributes 100 points annually as a condition of their sons membership in in the pack.

 

http://www.bsa-sjac.org/filestore/do...FormSample.doc

​Click- This is a great concept, though I was a little nervous clicking it... Glad to see I'm over 100 points!

I agree with the comments about it not being a showstopper, However, an endangering the welfare of child conviction might raise more flags than any other when you consider the role he'd be in. For that reason I suggest being completely up front and forthcoming about all the facts. I realize your original post was not the application, but if his application contained essentially only the same explanation as what you just wrote, I'd reject the application.

You focused on what the conviction wasn't - not a felony, not recent, not violent, not drug related, etc. But what was the charge? You can't leave it up to the council to trust you, write it off, and/or make some other leap of faith. You need to let them know exactly what happened and what any extenuating circumstances might be. Then let them make the determination of whether or not it's serious enough to be a conern.

If I was evaluating based on what was presented above, I couldn't in good conscience approve it. However it doesn't mean I wouldn't approve it with more info. For example, if you husband was just a full of himself 19 year old who punched a 15 year old for leaning on his car, then I chalk it up to the stupidity of youth and approve.

As a follow up, the only real resources you need are the rank books every scout has. That's what drives your activities. The District Commissioner is also correct about Googling for help. But to that, I'll add that you should be specific about what you are Googling. Don't search "how to run a good pack." That's far too broad. Rather search something like "Tiger Go See It ideas".

And as for being behind rank for the B&G, who says you need to attain rank by B&G? Scouts have the whole year.

Hope some of this helps

My suggestion to focus more on the dens and less on the district. Scouting is about the kids, not the leaders. Scouts are not behind because of a lack of support from above. A good pack could be run without any district support, in my opinion. If your den leaders are meeting regularly with the kids and doing activities and achievements, you'll be in good shape.

You want to run a PWD? Find someone with a kitchen scale and a parent with some basic woodworking skills to build a simple track. Scouting teaches resourcefulness, the leaders should be able to model that. Good luck.

Ditto to most of what everyone else said. But I'll also add I think (of Tiger, Wolf, Bear) Bear is the year most conducive to being done individually. For Tigers, a full third of their requirements are Den Activities and another third are Go See Its intended to be done with the den. For Wolves there is very little flexibility. My numbers might be off but I recall something like 52 out of 58 individual activities being required for Wolf. The Bears on the other hand have tons of choices and very little restrictions.

No offense JG, but when I see "very sad", I usually expect it to be about a scout or scouter dying. This may be "pathetic", but not something that should bring you to grief.

 

I agree. I clicked this thinking some harm had come to a scout. Then I started reading and I was heading in a different direction and thought "Uh oh, he called out the BOR guy for incorrect badging and the guy retaliated by turning down the kid." In the end, I'm glad to hear "very sad" was really nothing more than "less than ideal."

The ship has likely sailed, but killing the belt loop program was a major disappointment.