Snow Owl

It seems to me all these councils are telling BSA the Jamboree is not enough of a draw for Scouts and these side trips is the only way scouts would want to go.  I believe the truth is these side trips is the only way a council can justify the extra cost and generate some money for the council.  I was shocked at the cost out council is charging.  they could not justify it or provide an accounting.  Oh and FYI, all the museums and tours in DC are either free (Smithsonian, National Archive, National Gallery etc.)  or have a significant Scout discount

We had the same issue, We have/had several scouts ready to go but when the parents found out about the extra $1000 and the extra 6 days they all backed out,  I can only imagine this is the case with many scouts. 

All of these issues bouncing back an forth confirms one thing, to me at least, we need to have more power/authority on the volunteer side of the organization.

I didn't see this post before.  I guess this is going to be sort of Part 2 to my answer to your other question.

 

A "public charter" school may present an interesting question. I am somewhat unclear on the nature of these schools in terms of public vs. private.  Are they public schools or private schools?  I know they receive public funds through tuition for the students paid for by the public school districts, but in and of itself that does not make it a public school.  If, for example, an office-supply company sold exclusively to public schools, all of its revenue would be derived from public funds, but that still wouldn't make it a publicly owned company.  I suspect that a "public charter" school would be classified as "private", but I am not certain.  If I am correct, they could be a CO of a BSA unit.  Even so, a better move might be to have a "parents organization" be the CO but still meet in the school.  I suspect your DE can be helpful in this area.

 

As for your question about sports teams, chess club, etc.:  If it is a PUBLIC school, the football team cannot exclude atheists, nor can the chess team, marching band, robotics club, etc.  The difference between those teams and clubs, and a Cub Scout pack or Boy Scout troop, is that the BSA says its units MUST exclude atheists.

Oh good lord (pun intended), that is not exactly what it says.  This has been discussed ad nauseam and is not what I am trying to flesh out.

Okay - not trying to kick old arguments up. 

 Uh-oh, now I've done it.

 

I will try to say this as neutrally as I can.  We have had dozens of threads on this subject and I don't necessarily want to start another one.  I just want to answer your question.

 

A public school is owned and operated by a goevernmental entity (usually a school district.)  It is therefore part of "the government" for purposes of the constitutional restrictions on what "the government" may do or not do.  That includes the First Amendment, specifically the Establishment Clause, which has been interpreted to mean that the government may not provide preferential treatment to one religion or religious belief over others.  The BSA as a matter of National policy denies membership to atheists, and requires its units to do the same.  Therefore, if "the government" (such as a public school) owned and operated a BSA unit, it would be denying the benefits of its program to certain people (atheists) on the basis of religious belief (or non-belief).  The government cannot do that.  Therefore, public schools cannot be CO's for BSA units.

 

Some people disagree with what I just said, but even the BSA seems to agree with it. When the BSA was challenged on this point some years back, they switched the charter for all remaining public-school-chartered units to other organizations.  In many cases (including the Cub Scout pack that my son was in and that I was a leader in), this did not change where the unit meets.  The pack still meets at the school, but it is chartered to the PTO, not the school.

Ah, okay - I know of several units, sponsored by public schools, not PTAs or any other subdivision but the school itself,  so I am not sure about BSA agreeing with you;  or perhaps they have changed their mind - they are targeting public schools here specifically which is what raised the questions for our district.

BSA has interesting positions and protections See 20 US Code 7905 "Equal Access to Public School Facilities"  Which I believe contradicts your premise

Public school and Charter requirements would be in conflict. Even an organization at a public school could face the same issue depending on the local/state laws. 

Sorry  - I still do not see the conflict

If the CO is a public school, meaning the school itself or the board of education, rather than a separate organization AT the school such as a PTA or PTO, I would think there is a problem with it being a CO at all.  Not mentioning the name of any long-time poster who might be interested in this subject, if he's still checking this forum.

 I am curious, Why would it be a problem for the school to be the CO?

I am looking for more of the BSA position.  We are trying to add units at public schools, actually public charter schools.  Their position or question is how or why would this be any different than the school football team (softball, volleyball, etc), band, chess club etc?

Can a Troop or Pack be a closed Unit?  As in the Pack/Troop is limited to Scouts from the School who is the Chartering Organization?

A School wants Scouting programs but is concerned about youth who are not students of that school using School facilities, benefiting from School support etc.  This is not just a financial concern but also security and legal.  The units would meet at School after hours on school grounds where everyone must have a school ID or get a guest pass from the office. 

My reading of everything I could find is that this is within the Chartering Organization discretion.

Thoughts or Experience?

An all boy  unit has to have a male present on all campouts. A TG "boy" would not be required to have  a female present, because then it would imply that she was a girl, and she does not want to be treated as one.  My guess is that in the future, Boy Scout Troops will have to have coed leadership present on all campouts.

There is no requirement to have a male adult leader or male adult on campouts.

The YPT question is this.  If a girl registers as a boy (for whatever reason), must the scout unit have a female scout leader at the activities?  

 

My guess is the answer is yes.  BSA will see this as a potential liability.  A female scout leader will be required.

 

Since BSA will have no way of knowing if any registered scout is actually a boy or a girl, they will have to require that all Boy Scout activities have a female unit leader.

I don't see that as the next step. We have a female scoutmaster and there is no requirement that a male leader be present.

Interesting times. If you listen to the statement you will notice he never says "boy" ever. Not even "Boy Scouts of America". My prediction is that we will have girls registered in Packs and Troops before the end of the year. Units will have the option to be be coed or "traditional"

There is nothing wrong with discussing the potential consquences of somthing that could potentially happen at some point in the future, but I think it should be kept in mind that there does not appear to be any actual proposal being considered by National that would make Cub Scout packs and/or Boy Scout troops "coed."  I don't really see any likelihood that it will be seriously considered in the near future. Over the summer there was a statement by the Chief Scout Executive (https://voiceofscouting.org/chief-scout-executive-asks-us-serve-entire-family) that spawned a thread in this forum in which some people thought the BSA is heading in that direction.  However, the CSE's statement does not include a proposal to go "coed."  Instead it spoke vaguely about how the BSA should "begin exploring how we can serve the entire family."  The one actual example it gave was of several areas in which troops have formed a "partnership" with the GSUSA to create "programs" for the "entire family."  One forum member spoke of a similar program in his/her area. But this is not the same thing as a "coed unit."  In that statement, the CSE asked for a sharing of ideas about how the BSA could serve the entire family, but I have not seen any follow-up articles about what kinds of ideas were presented and what the next step is, if any.

My bet is before the end of 2017 we will see coed BSA pilot programs for cubs and scouts.  The number of units that are coed and being left alone by national seems to be growing.  I don't think it is a question of "if" but rather "when" 

The other thing I have noticed is Crews camping and doing activities with Troops, including summer camp, where the female crew members are below the Venturing age.  I imagine they are not registered with BSA but are being fully included just the same.

Another issue where we must tread carefully and with a look to the future

Same here.  And as a COR I have to say they tell us nothing, They keep us as far from the decisions and information as possible. 

The difference in pay between the DEs and the SE is staggering!

I do not know about other councils but our executive board is huge, 60 members not counting the CORs, and is made up mainly of community leaders and money people who have not active involvement in scouting other than writing checks.  The board only meets once a year for a warm fuzzy meeting.

We have a trailer for the Cubs - more of a closet on wheels for when the cubs go camping.  Pop up tents, large stove, coffee pots, chairs, games, etc.  all the stuff for family style cub scout camping.  That said, we will not get a trailer for the Scouts.  We are staying compact - if each Scout has their pack/roll - only one pack/ bag for their gear and sleeping bag and LS.  Then every other scout can carry a tent, those without the tent have a food pack, troop pack or if needed a stove.  Basically packing like a canoe trip minus the canoe, each person can make one trip from unload to campsite.  Last month we had 12 scouts & 3 adults.  All of the gear fit in the bed of an F150.

It makes the trips an adventure and forces everyone to be resourceful.

Just my 2 cents

From a School or charter organization prospective - scouting is more akin to an after school programs like soccer, chess, cross country etc.  the total cost from families and leaders for a cub scout pack with 48 scouts is $9,000 +/-   This BSA fees, boys life, uniforms, handbooks, rank and recognition.  With the program we provide all of the manpower and resources.  

Every year when my 100+ Scout cub scout pack writes the check for charter renewal in excess of $4,000  we always have the same question.  So what are we getting for our money?  On top of this cost we then tell parents they are the manpower for the program, you now need to go but handbooks, uniforms, patches etc.  Oh and you also need to sell popcorn, camp cards and donate to FOS......  Between our Pack and Troop the total expenses paid to BSA by the chartered organization and/or the scout parents in dues, fees and scout shop is nearly $20K.   Then there are the expenses we pay for camping, pinewood derby, blue and gold, rain gutter, Arrow of light, supplemental training etc. 

Southeast Louisiana has not announced anything like this yet but they tend to keep us in the dark about everything.

And related questions, can a unit refuse to pay these add'l fees?  Can a unit opt out of their council?   Doubling the fees will make it difficult to justify the program to many chartered organizations.

From a purely cost perspective of a program; Scouting is expensive compared to other after school or extra curriculum options now.

The DE current salary is well above minimum wage and will still be after any minimum wage increase.  What I am trying to figure out is where is this language coming from?  The new overtime rule is for anyone making less than $47,476 per year - which is most if not all current DEs

 Is BSA changing the professional position title?  Our Council has announced “The District Associate position will be the new title for entry level field staff members moving forward.† Our district no longer has a DE or even a new “DA† see  http://www.bsa-selacouncil.org/about-us/council-staff/1376

Any insight on this change?

The potential implications of this are making my head spin. (I'm a lawyer, I can't help it.) Please tell me that you at least make sure these assistant den leaders (and all other leaders) are registered as leaders with the BSA and have taken Youth Protection Training.

 Yes & Yes - Anyone who can be registered with BSA is registered with BSA & trained.  The only ones not registered with BSA are the youth girls.  They are registered with the Pack and the School however.   And we require ALL parents to take youth protection.

We include siblings as members - the girls can be in a den and do everything the boys do.  This prevents the drop in once in a while problem and the den leaders know how many Scouts (boy & girl) they have.  The girls pay less dues since we do not register them with BSA.  We do ask the parents of the girls to be at least an assistant den leader. It has never been a problem.

We always included sibling sister but we have started including none sibling girls and it has not caused any issues.

We did ask the boys at the various den levels if they had thought girls should be able to be cubs.  There was not a single objection or hesitation.  They could not even comprehend why the girls would be excluded.  We asked the parents as well and there was no issue there either.  So far the only issue has been from the brownies concerned we might be taking their members.

Coed cubs is happening all over the place BSA is just not recognizing it.,

Our district has been pretty much none existent for nearly 2 year.  The SE refuses to appoint a district Chairman and we no longer have a DE.  

Our Council (which is a complete mess) has used the overtime requirement changes as the rational to eliminate several DEs.  Our district now shares a "District Executive" with other districts.  And other professionals have been given other "special" duties: Soccer & Scouting, Hispanic Liaison, & Scout Reach. 

Training is now all on line, our registrations are processed by another council, someone tell me again why we need the council?

We have a successful unit despite the council not because of.

Its only a matter of when, not if