boomerscout

"but the whole posting comes across as a bit sexist."

OakTree: Are you also female? When guys have a problem, they eventually work it out amongst themselves, even if it means getting in each others face a time again. I've noticed at work that women, on the other hand, seem to want to complain to the Boss. It's not sexist to say that male and female brains are wired differently.

The suggestion for Toastmaasters was serious, and Toastmasters is not sexist. There are easier ways to change a campfire conversation than the PC approach. If you hear a conversation you don't like, and you try the PC approach, likely as not you'll be told if you don't like it just leave. A little skill, on the other hand, can get any conversation headed in better directions.

Pulled from a psychology journal: "Men and women approach problems with similar goals but with different considerations. While men and women can solve problems equally well, their approach and their process are often quit different. For most women, sharing and discussing a problem presents an opportunity to explore, deepen or strengthen the relationship with the person they are talking with. Woman are usually more concerned about how problems are solved than merely solving the problem itself. For women, solving a problem can profoundly impact whether they feel closer and less alone or whether they feel distant and less connected. The process of solving a problem can strengthen or weaken a relationship. Most men are less concerned and do not feel the same as women when solving a problem.

Men approach problems in a very different manner than women. For most men, solving a problem presents an opportunity to demonstrate their competence, their strength of resolve, and their commitment to a relationship. How the problem is solved is not nearly as important as solving it effectively and in the best possible manner. Men have a tendency to dominate and to assume authority in a problem solving process. They set aside their feelings provided the dominance hierarchy was agreed upon in advance and respected. They are often distracted and do not attend well to the quality of the relationship while solving problems.

Some of the more important differences can be illustrated by observing groups of young teenage boys and groups of young teenage girls when they attempt to find their way out of a maze. A group of boys generally establish a hierarchy or chain of command with a leader who emerges on his own or through demonstrations of ability and power. Boys explore the maze using scouts while remaining in distant proximity to each other. Groups of girls tend to explore the maze together as a group without establishing a clear or dominant leader. Relationships tends to be co-equal. Girls tend to elicit discussion and employ "collective intelligence" to the task of discovering a way out. Girls tend to work their way through the maze as a group. Boys tend to search and explore using structured links and a chain of command."

What I gleaned from the original post is that this is a guy having problems with other guys. I therefore attempted to tailor my advice to guy methods of problem solving. Your hostility in that I stated the female approach to problem-solving wouldn't be the best here shows a complete lack of empathy with the problem itself just so you could be politically-correct.

No, neither I nor anyone else ever complains to our CO. I can't even imagine it happening.

"this would be one of the relatively few issues I'd take to the CO, if the SM and committee chair were unresponsive. And if the CO took a hands-off approach"

this is the soccer-mom approach, and rarely works with adult men. running to your "Daddy" is apt to get you blamed as well, if not more so, for making even more trouble, stirring up things that had died down, etc.

the time to speak up is the instant it happens. if you feel a need to put the happy-face onto your rebuke you might consider a few classes at Toastmasters. The art of deflecting conversations to subjects more in line with Scouting is well worth learning.

Of course you can be involved! As for the campout--remember the good parts: the scenery, the hiking with your son...As for the adults' campfire--20 yds was not far enough away--voices carry. I am wondering why not one of the four new guys said anything. To keep silent gives tacit approval.

We can pass all the PC laws we want to silence people. That does not mean we've changed their hearts and minds. Lasting cultural change may need to be somewhat gradual. Many who were so set in their ways as to be ossified are still in shock from the last election.

"Why is it that it always ends up political? "

I believe this is plain ol human nature. Whenever you get a large group of adults together, you soon have either an orgy or an emotional political discussion.

"moxie, I find it interesting an 11 year old, a 4th or 5th grader, would be on JV basketball. How does the Troop serve the Tenderfeet in this time? "

A lot of his Scouts must be in Junior High--which would be JV. I was 12 when I finished seventh grade

I'm glad the Y does not discriminate. However, from their own website:

" 2009 YMCA of the USA. The YMCA is a not-for-profit organization whose mission is to put

Christian principles into practice through programs that build healthy spirit, mind and body for all." "Provide a safe, positive, Christian environment "

I am wondering if people who find fault with the BSA also find fault with the YMCA? The "Y" runs similar programs in some cases, and can even apply for Federal funds for community based programs for their boys. For swimming instruction we sometimes use the Y and its aquatics programs

I can see a boy wanting to be part of two different troops if he spends school year with one divorced parent and summer with the other

All boys need Scouting -- without exception. Just my opinion.

"I can't be held accountable for what goes on in other peoples' minds."

Sorry, but you are responsible if you're trying to proseletize them

"If one isn't going to pay, they ain't gonna play. If you can't afford it, don't buy it." This white, middle-class attitude tells us that if you're too poor to have a uniform, then don't even think of joining the Scouts.

"One doesn't need the best stuff right from the git go."

agreed, which is why we suggest foregoing the uniform at first until the kid decides if Scouting is really for him. This decision is generally made half-way to Second Class. Start with the shirt,of course, and gradually add to it so that you're in full uniform by First Class. Kid will be older then, so can find more odd jobs, and has been exposed to work ethic and self-reliance catechism of Scouting

"Making it too expensive is just an excuse to justify not being able to participate in Scouts. It's a bogus argument." Not if your factory job went to China, and you haven't found a good, real job for over a year. We take in boys even if all they can afford is rags. Do what you can with what they have instead of what you'd like them to have. Build from there

"I bet a Board made up of senior youth scouts would have also kicked this scout back. "

I'm sure they would have too. They just wouldn't have waited six months to tell the kid he was messing up. In re-reading the original post, the problem seems to be that the boy received no interim feedback or evaluation. He was on the wrong trail, and no-one said a word.

I realize the police and fire departments operate with tax money. My question was whether tax money was paid to the LFL as fee for services, or not. If this was just something that off-duty police & fire did in their own time, then I don't see it as significant government backing.

broadening our child base by allowing the children of atheists seems OK as we already have Sunday only Christians in Scouting. Of course, we will have to rewrite the Scout Law. We may also see churches no longer wishing to be the CO

"Tossing school uniform activities and non-school uniform activities in together is apples and oranges."

maybe not so, in the kid's & parents' minds. Both are after school/extra school activities. Who cares who the provider is as long as the kid has a worthwhile time? in beginning karate classes, you can get by with a tee shirt and sweat pants.

"If a kid wants to get involved in activities outside of school, they are expected often to make purchases for participation"

Yes they definitely need camping gear. Not too much left in the household account after buying the pack, the sleeping bag, the boots, the yearly registration...

rank should always be earned. but, if this boy had not shown enough leadership the past six months, do you really believe the board fulfilled their responsibility by telling him so at the last minute?

How did this thread become about atheism? The linked news clipping was about L.A.'s gay community not wanting Learning for Life/Exploring to be the contractor-provider for the police & fire departments' youth programs. If the BSA was taking tax dollars to provide this service, then the gays probably have a valid point.

I've been in contact with friends & acquaintances who are either in Scouting or were. None of us are aware of any public school being the CO. Scouts may have met at a public school, but the CO was always a separate, independent group such as Parents of Children Attending School ###. These groups did not receive tax money. Lots of community groups could use the school facilities after hours.

While I find it hard to believe any school administrator would seek out extra duties, can anyone give me any specifics on which public school (and when) was the actual CO?

Yes, we understand. The organization provides the uniform, and then it is paid for or reimbursed by the kid. So, the troop provides a full uniform upon joining, and the kid pays it off as he earns the moola.

we have our SPL, ASPL do the reporting to the committee on PLC decisions and plans. It gets them used to dealing with authority figures, with public speaking during formal presentations, and with thinking on their feet when it's question time.

I believe you are asking what is the correct ethical response?? If this list was developed as a troop activity, I feel the list belongs to the old troop. However, if this list is something your son developed on his own, without instruction or encouragement from the old troop, then the list is your son's property

"Before, public schools were the single biggest charterer of BSA units. They owned them. Illegally"

This would have to be a very long, long before. When I was a boy -- in Boy Scouts -- we were known as 's troop, even though CO was really Mothers' Club -- an independent organization.

I agree with Apache Bob. Where were his mentors (SM, ASM, other adults) for the six months? What kind of initial training was he given? What was his POR? What previous evaluations and feedback was he given?

"Regardless of whether the school provides it and expects a boy to raise the money to recover costs or cover replacement, he is required to wear it"

SR540:

Sure, if you want to do it this way. Upon joining, the troop furnishes the boy a full uniform and a full gear kit for camping (sleeping bag, ezrest, mess gear, compass, boots, etc).Then, the lad would reimburse the troop a bit each year, depending on family finances, until the full kit is paid off. Most troops would have to scramble to handle it this way, but it is doable, and probably the only way the truly poor can be "proper Scouts".

"The argument is about personal equipment, not collective equipment. Not only does the band provide the collective, it provides the personal"

Nowadays many schools provide nothing until you "pay to play". In some deep rural areas this may be $120 & up per activity each season.

In our own youth, minimum wage could provide a greater percentage of life's necessities than it now can. In a true miles wide poverty area parents may understand the need for some camp gear, but say "no way" when they see the price of a uniform--followed by, "if you've got that much money for a set of clothes, you should be helping out your family instead!"

Paper routes no longer exist; papers are delivered by adults in a van. Most home-owners no longer shovel their walks or want them shoveled. Snow is an act of God. If you do clear the walks, and someone slips on an icy spot you overlooked, you become liable.(Shoveling driveways still works.)

Money-making via odd jobs is a skill only a few, very few, seem to be born with. The rest must be mentored & trained. The idea of self-employment (as handymen) is presently not in these kids worldview, nor in their parents, nor in their everyday community. It's a totally alien concept. Any money they do earn would serve them better as camp fees instead of as uniforming.

Just because Scout meetings are held at a public school does not mean the school itself is the CO. The CO may be "school name Mothers' Club" or "Parents of school name", etc. Many schools open their facilities to organizations after hours.

I believe #2, participation in horse treks, does not come under age appropriate guidelines, but rather comes under minimum inseam & max. weight guidelines

I apologize for trying to bait Merlyn. I do wonder how his campaign is proceeding to remove a Scout is Reverent from the Scout Laws.

"that discriminates against and denigrates atheists"

Well, what's wrong with that?