Krampus

I have a friend' date=' a professional trainer, who just retired from the army and came up with what seems to be a solid wilderness first aid course. I told him I would probably try out his course if the BSA would honor it. The problem: he's getting the run-around in terms of certification. (I shared with him links from scouting.org and national camp school and he has had no response from E-mails.) He tried contacting a "local" guy ('bout an hour's drive away), who said that he already offered plenty of courses. (Yeah, on weekends that non of us could attend and we would have to commute or find lodging.) So does anyone have a "step-by-step" process of becoming a certified instructor? One that BSA will honor on a tour permit.[/quote']

 

I will PM you with a contact name I know who runs a WRFA course and might be able to help on how to get it up and running.

@EmberMike...the BSA policy has always been well known. Don't kid yourself. The reason that it is more "open" now is because of activism, social media and the recent swing in this country of the political pendulum. But the policy has always been well known.

If someone gives you a gift' date=' if you don't have anything against it, accept it. As to the creator of a "paper Venturing unit" throwing a new unit founder award in the trash, why would anyone want to create a paper Venturing unit in the first place? I don't really understand most of the people in this thread.[/quote']

 

For me a knot should be about achievement. To be honest, besides the eagle and aol knot, I think the rest should go. It looks sort of foolish to me for an adult to have 50 knots on their uniform like some banana republic general. I have noticed most folks that wear those don't have eagle or aol knots so maybe they are making up for lost possibilities. In the end it is a personal preference. I prefer not to wear them. I have six, I wear none.

 

You have every right to wear whatever BSA considers legal. I think what your friend did was very nice. For me, and this is my personal opinion, I would feel weird wearing a knot (of any kind) but specifically for something that was not based on an achievement of some sort.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the guide to advancement..... I would never hold back a scout that I deem is advancing to quickly......there are other ways to slow a boy down.... Under eligibility in the link below is says that candidate needs approval of the Scoutmaster' date=' crew leader or varsity coach. The election team that visited us brought this to my attention and I adjusted my list of eligible youth, removing one scout. Our scout camp requires a Scoutmaster recommendation to become a councilor...... Same for NYLT, Jambo and various council youth staff positions. [url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/"]http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/[/url=http://www.oa-bsa.org/misc/basics/]

I get all that. My questions was what criteria other than "I don't think he's ready because xxx" can be used? I ask because if there are no standard critera, such as are outlined in the GTA around what being "active" requires, then any scoutmaster recommendation (or denial) becomes arbitrary.

While we're ragging on the West knot' date=' did anyone else doubletake when they saw it on this freshfaced kid's shirt? From BSA's Facebook

[/quote']

 

I have seen this in my District. If folks want to donate money more power to them. But to have recognition for donating money defeats the purpose of scout-based altruism.

 

@BD: The *difference* between ragging on rich people because their unit can do more than yours and ragging on rich people getting some scouter bling for donating money should be obvious. Rich units are not rubbing their wealth in people's faces or seeking recognition for their wealth...though I will grant you some units do just that. This award, however, is nothing more than someone who can afford to give money like that being give somehting to wear that shows they gave money. Big difference.

 

It is like the Paul Harris Fellowship in Rotary: Give money, get a plaque. What's the point? I'd rather give the money and leave it at that....and I have done that.

There is a very Key component of the OA quality control..... The Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster needs to recommend the boys who are eligible. Sure he has the rank and the nights of camping.....But is he someone that will reflect well on the troop and scouting???? So scoutmaster need to grow a pair and not allow the boys who are marginal scouts be elected. Like many things Scoutmaster can control the quality of rank advancement' date=' merit badges.....He can influence the quality of the local summer camp by withholding a signature that is required on the application......Scoutmasters recommendation. It can be a good learning experience... Bottom line......If you feel a youth is marginal as a scout......Don't let him be elected. This is just like all of the horrible Eagles and First Class scouts that can't make pancakes or start a fire. Reflects on the troop Leadership involved.....Youth and Adult. [/quote']

 

So two questions:

 

- What guidelines does BSA give that allow you to deny a scout who is eligible for OA election? Serious question, because I am only aware of the Guide to Advancements criteria. I assume if a scout is deemed active and in good standing he can be elected. If you have other guidelines they would be good to see.

 

- For SMCs, if a scout fulfills his requirements a scoutmaster must "pass" him. I would love to hold back some of these scouts who rocket through. But if they have been signed off on their requirements or mbs there is little an scoutmaster can do, no?

What makes you think they don't 'endure it' already?

I highly doubt Scouters go around spouting gay hate speech in the course of doing their duty any more than they spout racial or religious hatred. Sure, there are likely those who feel that way. But I think most Scouters, regardless of their feelings on the subject, spout hate speech or actions in front of scouts.

Cool I have a cyber stalker........ Glad you guys enjoy laughing at those doing with less. We sure did camp under plastic sheeting......because that is all we had.

Meh...you ae a bigt ont to throw people using tents or going on big trips under the bus, but when someone in a good spirited manner puts your own words back at you you get all a tizzy? MB is right, what a chip you have on your shoulder. You think nothing of diss'ing guys who have more than you. Weren't you the one who said certain jokes never get old when called out about "rich white guys"? It's a two way street brother. But understand something, those guys below were not making fun of you or being poor. They were using your anti-tent words against you in a fun-loving fashion.

Has anyone ever "respectively declined" an adult award (like a James West)?

Not for other awards like the Scouter Key, but I could see how someone would turn down a "purchased" knot. I know BSA says its not (or knot ), but when you donate money and they give you a knot, that's purchased in my book.

Tony for my money it comes down to a few things:

1) Be clear on what the boys will learn and make sure everyone gets through it. Completing TF and a good part of SC are important. Communicate that in your Leader Guide so that folks know what they can expect from your program.

2) Let the boys be hands on, go in depth on the skills taught and use EDGE. Don't just go through the motions. Make sure every kid can learn and demonstrate what they learned.

3) Be inclusive. Look for the kid who is shying away or trying to duck out. Make sure they have a buddy and are having fun.

4) Stick around at the end of the day and make yourself available to leaders or scouts that may have questions. Always appreciated.

5) Have a make-up day on Friday where Scouts can complete anything they missed or did not get.

6) Document who did what. Nothing is more infuriating to a leader than getting home and finding out the credits given at camp were wrong. Most camps give these out on Friday but having a status sheet posted daily would be a good idea. It will keep the guess work out of who needs what and will make reconciling your records at the end of the week easy.

7) Make it fun! You will lose the boys if what you teach is not fun. If teaching knots used EDGE, but then have a knot relay race. If teaching map and compass, do some table work but then have a game.

8) Keep your Instructor-to-Scout ratio low if you can. Ideally 1:5. If you can't do that due to lack of Instructors, ask some of the SMs to help out. Many units have an SM in charge of their first year program and are happy to help at camp.

9) Build an sense of esprit de corps with your lads early. Make them feel united as a group. Not by their unit but by the shared sense of all being first year scouts.

10) If you still have time after all of this, don't forget that some second year scouts may have a requirement or two they need to work on. If possible, have an open session late in the day to teach those in an ad hoc fashion. For example, if a SC scout needs to identify 10 local plants, maybe be prepared to show them.

I am sure you will get some great ideas. There are no right answers. Just make sure you teach them well and they can show you. THAT is perhaps the most appreciated thing. Nothing is worse than a Scout who goes to camp and learns nothing.

Was at a RT last month...saw a 15 year old Vigil member. I just had to laugh. Back in the day You could count the Vigil guys in our lodge on one hand and most of them were 17 nearly 18 and Eagles. There were 5, all barely 5ft, standing talking to each other.

Trophies for everyone.

This is something needs needs looked at again. OA selection is no longer nuch of an honor' date=' and many of those elected are not "good scout/camper role models" the program was deisgned to promote. Additionaly, manhy elected are not old enough, or mature enough to be of much use to the order. BSA has destroyed this core program, and I can't fathom why.[/quote']

 

Well, this is the whole problem with BSA now. More Eagles. More Arrowmen. More leaders. More MBs. Less quality. It's almost as bad as a youth sports team where everyone gets a trophy. It has all become so watered down and boys have so many other activities that the real purpose of Scouting is lost in the noise.

 

I do disagree about only inducting adults who were Arrowmen as youth. There are many fine Scouters who never were Scouts and can be, or are, excellent Arrowmen. But I would be in favor of having them re-do Ordeal if they lapse in dues or participation.

 

But you are right, OA is a shadow of its former self. Certainly no longer an honor society of elite campers. Just another popularity contest.

This sounds like it is similar to the "Scout Account" thread. There are issues about fund-raising and how that is accounted for and distributed. Since your unit is part of your CO you may run afoul of their 501©(3) status. Always best to run these ideas past your COR before you do them. If they don't know they certainly have an accountant who should.

The big difference between this and the issue of gay kids in scouting is that gay kids don't have another option' date=' while girls do. Exclude a gay kid and that's the end of the road for him in Scouting. Exclude girls and there's still the GSUSA. At a certain age there's also Venturing for girls. [/quote']

 

Actually, gay kids have plenty of options other than BSA. Exclude gay Scouts they still have YMCA (now just called "Y" for some reason), other church and religious leagues, etc. But if you are gay and not religious, well then you may have limited options...but that's why membership organization are so narrowly based: They are a coop of like-minded folks who want to do things.

 

For me the girl issue is the same as the gay issue. It is not about choice or options, it is about equality. While you are at it, if we are going to be "equal" you have to let athiests in too. You simply cannot argue for equality and then discriminate against someone else. That's absurd. You either have equaility or your don't. Period.

No emails around here. I did, however go to one of our council's "town hall" meetings on the topic and was very disappointed in and saddened by my fellow Scouters.

I have seen emails on both side of the debate. Some have been reasonable and some have been hateful. Par for the course.

Krampus, there's nothing that says gays can't be in scouting now, they just can't admit it. So they're already sleeping in close quarters. What does "not avowed" really mean anyway? So a kid knows he's gay, is part of the local gay organization, but denies he's gay. He's not avowed. What an ugly mess.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. We have sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell policy now. I guess those who are against gays are somehow fooling themselves now that gay scouts don't exist and their son is not currently associating with them now. But given that current policy it sort of gives scouters an "out" if you will in that we are not supposed to ask or know if a scout is gay and, if he is, he has to leave. If this new policy goes into place that all changes and rises issues about what scouters should or should not do if they find out a scout is gay.

[quote=MattR;n373527

I talked to my DE and it looks like council's South of the Mason Dixon line and East of Texas (including Texas) are voting against, North and East of the Mississippi are voting for (not sure about Florida). The West coast is for. The center of the country is following the red/blue map.

Not sure I follow your geography. Are you saying everything south of PA, north of FL and east of TX are voting against? What I heard from a national employee was the the south (TX, LA, MS, AL, GA, TN, AR, NC, SC, WV) were voting a majority against. Split states in that region were VA and FL. They said OK, KS, NB, ND, SD were split but leaning against.

He too characterized it in political map terms but from what I understand the states are weighted much differently. That's about the extent of my knowledge and it is all second hand.

The story changed significantly from its initial telling..... I could careless......Just interesting how the story changed

The only thing that changed was your undrstanding. To others it was pretty clear. This is a service he said his lodge provided but an adult who advises the lodge said no. What part about that do you not get?

Let me make it easy on you. You drive to the scout shop and ask for a Tenderfoot patch. They tell you they have one but then the manager comes and says the badge is in the back and he does not feel like getting if for you. He's denied you a service the shop provides. Get it now?

I'm done on this topic. You don't get it and that's fine. Have a blessed day.

Here is from the first post in the thread

MB says

 

'We have a few Scouts who could not make our District's tap out this year (mandatory band thing). They are not going to summer camp this year because they are doing NT and it is too expensive for them to do both. District is not doing any unit-based tap outs but the boys really don't want to miss out on the tap out ceremony."

 

Band, football, wrestling and life happen, I contend the boys could attend summer camp tap out night or another districts tap out ceremony instead of holding a unit specific tap out ceremony and I don't disagree with the Chapter Adult advisor at not wanting to set a precident for doing it at a unit level. It was never intended to be unit based.

 

The service is offered by the lodge, I am sorry it doesn't fit your youths schedule. What happens if the ordeal doesn't fit their schedule??? gonna do a unit level ordeal????

Each lodge is different. Your inability to comprehend what he is saying is nothing short of silly. Unless you know him personally you have no clue whether or not his district or council offer summer tap outs. Guess what? Many do not! What should he do? Drive 9 hours at great expense to get something that is offered by his lodge locally? You are a great one to throw around money and elitism when it rears it's head to your unit, but when someone else tries the low cost approach and follows the boy-led principles you get combative with them?

Seriously, try reading slowly and perhaps more than once. The fact you wrote this, "I don't disagree with the Chapter Adult advisor at not wanting to set a precident for doing it at a unit level. It was never intended to be unit based" shows you did not understand a single thing MB posted. So go back and re-read what he wrote before you get all indignant.

Or are you p.o.'d because his unit might be able to afford to outfit an OA team (not cheap) and you see this as some sort of class battle? Rhetorical question. I think I know the answer.

Operationally this will be a nightmare to manage. What happens if the resolution is passed and now a Scout comes out? Do we disclose to the whole troop or keep it a secret? Do we tell the parents of the other Scouts in case they object to having their son sleep in a tent with an openly gay Scout? If we don't disclose to those parents, what liability do the adult leader run into in the event there is an incident?

 

Passing this resolution without clearly guidelines on how to uniformly manage such situations leaves us the leaders open to all sorts of liability and political/social issues we are not equipped to handle. It takes the focus off of why were are there in the first place.

I have already heard of units with parents that have demanded that, should the policy go into effect, that their son be "kept away" from any gay Scouts. I have equally heard of other units where parents have said they will leave if the policy is not adopted. So with this polarization as a background, suppose a Scout comes out to a leader and says he wants it kept quiet. Do you tell his parents? What about those parents that don't want their child around a gay Scout (if known)?

You cannot dismiss this with your school analogy so simply. It is not even remotely the same set of circumstances.

Wifes response was why are you trying to compete with the rich folks a crossed the beltway???

 

 

 

Guess I felt put in my place by the rich white boys at roundtable. I flat didn't like it and I think I will let the round table commisioner know it.

BTW, love the "rich white boys" dig. Imagine if someone made the opposite comment. For someone who's posts advocate for inclusiveness you can be pretty derisive at times. Let's be equal and fair to everyone.

Not seeing a lot of activity and chatter for what experienced HA Scouters call the most rugged and remote base in the BSA system; Northern Tier which is bounded by BWCA and Quetico Provincial Park. So who is going? With Jambo' date=' the NT staff tells us that a very limited number of slots are open this year. I have two boys that are going up as Charlie Guides. [/quote']

 

Actually we found it quite easy to get into HA bases this year as many seemed to be headed to WVA instead. Have crews going to all three with no problem and no wait.

MB' date=' what bothers me about your lodge is that you haven't mentioned the *lodge chief*. Your young arrowmen need to give him a call and let him know that they would like to provide this service for your troop an any others as time allows. Frankly, this whole conversation should be between the youth, and you, your "expert scouter", and the advisor need to take a step back, encourage communication on the youth level, and support whatever decision the Chief and his officers approve. Chances are, your boys will like the results, and they don't, they can suck it up for now and run for office next year. If either you or the advisor find yourselves getting in the way of this, you both need to find a half-hour at a nice coffee shop and sit and chill for awhile.[/quote']

 

Done that. The advisor basically overrode the youth leadership. I *only* step in when all avenues of the youth communication loop have been exhausted or I see a someone not acting in the best interest of the youth. I was on the sidelines of this until my guys came to me asking for help. After hearing what transpired I stepped in. As I said below, the youth on all sides want to do this. We just have an entrenched adult on a powertrip here. Thankfully, he's been overridden and the services that should be offered are being offered again. This ain't my first rodeo, so I know when to step back and when to step in.

 

Agree with Wakib. Sounds like you did all you could and taught your scouts along the way. Well done.

Operationally this will be a nightmare to manage. What happens if the resolution is passed and now a Scout comes out? Do we disclose to the whole troop or keep it a secret? Do we tell the parents of the other Scouts in case they object to having their son sleep in a tent with an openly gay Scout? If we don't disclose to those parents, what liability do the adult leader run into in the event there is an incident?

Passing this resolution without clearly guidelines on how to uniformly manage such situations leaves us the leaders open to all sorts of liability and political/social issues we are not equipped to handle. It takes the focus off of why were are there in the first place.

A friend of mine in Texas said her Council had the first of three meetings last night on the issue. They invited unit leaders, CCs and CORs. Was attended by 200+ people she said. BSA had national and Council folks present. It was an open forum to discuss the resolution and how units/COs felt. According to her the people there were overwhelmingly against any change in policy. The Council folks revealed that much of the feedback they had received was going that direction too. They are having two more meetings this week to reach the rest of the Council. She was in the "urban" area so the suburbs and rural areas are next. Her take away was that the Council was mostly likely leaning to keep the status quo rather than change anything. I think she said that Council had 7 or 11 votes? Not sure.

BD....looks like you got re-affirmation on how trying to deal with these kinds of people can be an excercise in futility.

 

A few things from my experience.....

 

1. Took a class with BSA university of scouting several years back on "Dealing with difficut scouts". One thing I clearly remeber and want to share with everyone was an experience from an unfortunate troop and scoutmaster somewhere (I relate the story they provided, I have not taken the time to reseach to verify it myself).....A scoutmaster somewhere who had an extremely difficult scout in his troop finally at some point made a casual verbal note (In a kind way) to one of the scouts parents that they might need to consider some professional assistance. Parents did seek professional assistance and it was diagnosed the kid had issue and recieved treatment or therapy or meds or whatever. parents then proceed to hire a lawyaer and eventually the scoutmaster is sued for the costs involved since he was not trained in phsycotherapy and had no business making the initial recomendation ! That right there told me that having difficult kids in he troop is a growing liability potential and if they end up gone from the troop most all would be better off.

 

2. My own 2 boys have had pretty extreme mood disorders, it hasn't caused an issue at the troop as we paid for professional diagnosis and medication that got the issue under control...except at home where dealing with them can many times be very difficult. I have worked with phsycoligists because of this an know that even them with years of training, education and experience that dealing with people with issues is trying, not an exact science and very difficult and many tiems impossible. This is from very good pros on the subject. For Krampus to casually suggest that a volunteer scouter should simply get training to deal with such scouts and to suggest that accomplishing this is as simple as LNT or YT or safeswim training is ridiculous.

 

The first really serious situation I had with a scout was one I "inherited" from the previous SM. Kid pulled a knife on another kid and threatened at summer camp, was to be booted but the grandmother pleaded with the previous SM to keep him as the troop was this kids only hope(She was right). In the next year he tried to fight other scouts, intimidated the younger ones, pee'd on a tent, peed in a kids water bottle and other things I have since forgotten, on top of all the ussual stuff (Never helping at campouts, running around at meetings, damaging troop and other kids stuff etc etc). I had other majr issues intthe troop at the time but when I got them resolved this kid had to go. I had others who would not go to campouts if this kid was going and some considering switching troops to be away from him. We tried suspensions etc but nothing helped. I did have one ASM that really wanted to reach this kid but even he knew after about 6 months we were gaining no ground with him and were potentially lsing good scouts. He was told to find another troop at recahrter, having been suspended from all troop activities the 6 moths prior. The drama was gone, the other boys happy and the kid in question we last heard became a drug addict on the streets in a city in California. We did our best but we have 2 dozen other boys to serve, we aren't mental health professionals.

 

Kid 2 came to us with a known bad history from cubs, the other nearby troop got 7 Webelos crossovers, many of which we MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN....they found where the difficult kid was going and went to the opposite troop. I taked to all thos families and 5 saidpoint blank they preferred our troop but since scout X signed up with us they were going to the other troop to avoid this kid. From our experience withthe first scout I described, I was in no mood to live through the mess again. Kid went to summer camp and was a problem begining to end. Was a constant problem at every troop meeting and camput he went to. We started swift and sure with the warnings, ultimatums etc. Scout was soon getting suspended from campouts by PLC decision and held to agreements which predictably caused protest by the parents. We stuck to our guns and they quit in protest relatively fast. Troopo continued to prosper without the drama, distraction and non productive stuff.

 

Botom line for me...there were many kids with minor issues we would coach and help but thre extreme problem kids are going to screw up the troop, waste your time and energy and potentially expose you to problems. We are amatuer voluntters with our own lives, we have no obligation to be proffesional therapsts for lost cause kids with frequently, disfuntional families attached.

 

Don't worry BD, if they make life hard on you because of this problem family, I find the pay is the same if I am employed as a SM or not.

No where did I say that volunteers getting trained will solve the problem. What I said was 1) you don't simply dismiss kids with autism, aspergers, ADD or ADHD as head cases that are always going to be problems, 2) many times dealing with such kids may take a bit of patience and understanding...just like dealing with ANY Scout can be. If you recall, my response was speficially to those folks saying it was too much effort or they were not trained so therefor should not have to deal. They do have training you can take and I believe I said that it was no replacement for professional diagnoses or help.

Some of the stuff you point out in your post is pretty bad. As I said earlier, if laws are broken then Scouts should go...full stop!