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Posts posted by WWBPD

  1. The boys (and/or their parents) will eventually burn out from the fanatical extracurriculars - stay the course...keep offering a great outdoor program, advancement opportunities, exciting and productive meetings...and they will return. Be the rock in the hurricane. Run your program for those who come, not for those that don't. You can't do anything about the methods employed by other organizations. To mirror them with strict scouting attendance policies would only result in the boys making a final choice, which they should not have to do. Keep recruiting to sustain growth and achieve higher turnout on trips, if the low number of participants is percieved as a problem. Keep in mind - scouting is only one aspect of each boy's life...make it a place of consistency and solace that will be attractive if/when the other activities crash and burn.

  2. Well, I think we pretty much beat this dead horse. Thanks for alleviating my Thanksgiving eve boredom. Dan, Fgoodwin, and ML2...thanks for playing and have a Great Thanksgiving. OGE...thanks for teeing this up.


    BW - when you return...please forward the List of Rules and Regulations of the BSA and my beloved Baltimore Area Council to me.

  3. I am just trying to get the list of the BSA's Rules and Regulations. If they cannot be provided then either they do not exist, or someone is not sharing.


    If you all are telling me that the rules and regulations of the BSA are imbedded in the millions pages of literature that the BSA produces about its Program, then I want to know why it has been made so difficult for someone that just wants to volunteer their time to help a boy.

  4. Dan,


    Okay, I've got those books in front of me. Just those three, right? Not Climb on Safely booklet? Not Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat guides? Not Youth Protection guide? Just the SM Handbook, Boy Scout Handbook and Guide to Safe Scouting...got it. Not the Accessibility Standards for Camp Facilities publication? Not the Barrier-Free Tent Frame publication? Just those three.


    Lots of words, now which are the rules, which are the regulations and which are the methods? I am only supposed to follow the Rules and Regulations according to my application agreement. The Methods may be good but I do not appear to be under any obligation to follow them as a result of signing the application.


    Don't see anything in my handbooks on gays in scouting? Is that a rule?


    I'll ask my SM, Unit Commissioner and Council for a list of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council. I'll see what they provide.


    In the meantime, does anyone else have the list?





  5. Trevorum,


    Ok - thanks for the update. I thought the old man may have missed something when he explained the birds and the bees to me soooooo many years ago.


    Now about those studies you mentioned...what is the reproduction rate of the current gay population of child-bearing years?



  6. Dan,


    I merely want to see the Rules and Regulations of the BSA and local council that I am supposed to follow as a volunteer. I want to see ALL of them, a current listing, not one that is a year old. It should not be that difficult...if the BSA says you and I must follow them, then someone must have them in one place that I can look at. And I don't want a listing of the Methods...just the Rules and Regulations please.

  7. OGE,


    Thank you for making my point. When the labyrinth of Rules and Regulations gets so large how can we know if we are following them all or not. In your analogy, we end up with multiple court systems (Constitution) to sort out the mess that is created, and we end up with an elaborate audit and penalty system (taxes) to catch the 'cheaters' or those who can't possibly understand all of the rules and nuances. A funny thing about Rules and Regulations, they are only added to...never detracted from. So after 94 years of the BSA's administrators and lawyers making their additions, we are left with a set of Rules and Regulations that are so voluminous that no one can point to a list of them (of course, BW has yet to be heard from). So now, we have aims, methods, rules and regulations...this is really getting confusing. Is a Method process a Rule and Regulation that I must abide by as a member of the BSA, or is it a mere suggestion? According to the Application, I must abide by the Rules and Regulations (it doesn't say Methods, unless of course there is a Rule or Regulation that says I must abide by all the Methods). I guess I need to hire my own lawyer to make sense of the requirements of my volunteerism in the BSA program.


    We have gone so far beyond 'simple and jolly' it isn't even funny. Back to the basics...focus on the boy and make it exciting, fun and safe. It's the spirit of scouting that is important, not the rules and regulations.




  8. Dan,

    Its a start...but that is the Aims and Methods not the Rules and Regulations. I have seen thousands of post on this forum about the rules and regulations (as stated by the BSA and as made up by certain individuals)..and the application references them... so they must exist somewhere so that any reasonable person volunteering can read them before they sign the application.


    No doubt, the SM Handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook contains some rules and regulations...please list them on your next post.


    Then let me know what rules and regulations are in the hundreds of thousands of other pages of literature the BSA has produced...next post please.


    Then call your Council and ask them for a copy of their Rules and Regulations, I am sure they will be very helpful...next post please.


    Once we have them assembled, it would only be right to make them available to our next adult volunteer to read before he/she signs the application...that way they will have all the information they need to make an informed decision about volunteering.


    As far as not picking and choosing which ones to follow...how can you know what you are following (or not following) when you can't even tell me what they are in the first place in one simple post of the Rules and Regulations of the BSA and your local council.


    National has burdened us with so many Rules and Regulations we can't even list them, let alone follow them. How is that 'jolly and simple'.


    B-P...we need you now more than ever.





  9. Good post...good idea...but remember we are talking about our BSA national headquarters.


    "I would like to see the BSA National issue press releases commenting on every ACLU action taken against the Scouts."


    That sounds good but nobody reads press releases (especially boys) and the press won't print them out of the kindness of its heart.



    "We need to let people know that we are here to stay, offer a great program and will remain on message."


    Only on a local basis...the national BSA office will not spend money on a national campaign...ever see a boy scout commercial on national television?


    "We have 3.8 million potential recruits that want to hear it!"


    We are left to reach them one at a time by archaic recruiting efforts...national does not support our efforts with a nationwide marketing campaign.


    Our national leaders are running scared and they can't seem to understand the term 'offense'. Because of that the positive message of Scouting is not being heard at the national level.



  10. OGE - I'll play.


    Please post the Rules and Regulations of the BSA and your local council on your next post.


    B-P says:


    "Scouting is not an abstruse or difficult science; rather it is a jolly game if you take it in the right light."


    Why are the strict constructionalist making it so difficult. B-P wants it to be jolly and simple. I'll look forward to reading the simple rules and regulations on your post.

  11. From the Rover site:

    In her introduction to the 35th edition of Scouting for Boys, Olave Baden-Powell wrote in part, Details of programs and activities must always change with circumstances and conditions, but in its spirit and essentials his (B.-P.) book is timeless and universal, and it is for us who come after him to act as its guardians and to see that the whole essence of Scouting is preserved therein, whatever may be the adaptations or allowances to meet varying conditions or needs.


    So... can someone point me to the quote from one of scouting's founders that the Program must be strictly adhered to at all times..as some posters suggest.

  12. B-P says:


    "Remember that the boy, on joining, wants to begin scouting right away; so don't dull his keenness by too much preliminary explanation at first. Meet his wants by games and Scouting practices, and instill elementary details bit by bit afterwards as you go."


    The birth of a new Pack need not be a chaotic time if the adult leadership is there and is strong. Sounds like too much burden is being shouldered by a few. It does take some time, however, failing to make it fun for the boys and get them 'scouting right away' is the critical task of a new pack - not raising funds.


    Good luck in the new pack.

  13. B-P further states:


    "Many a Scoutmaster would probably desire that I should give him all particulars in detail. But this would in reality be an impossibility, because what suits one particular Troop or one kind of boy, in one kind of place, will not suit another within a mile of it, much less those scattered over the world and existing under totally different conditions. Yet one can give a certain amount of general suggestion, and Scoutmasters in applying this can judge for themselves far best which details are most likely to bring about success in their own particular Troops."


    A national program, without any room for deviation by the individual units, was never envisioned by our hero. In fact B-P goes on to say:


    "Fortunately, in our Movement, by decentralization and giving a free hand to local authorities, we avoid much of the red tape which has been the cause of irritation and complaint in so many other organization."





  14. BW write -


    "But do not confuse the BSA with Baden-Powell's program. They never were the same."


    "The BSA was never like Baden-Powell's program."


    Okay - if I am following you now, what you are saying is that Baden-Powell's scouting and BSA's scouting are completely different. Like comparing an airplane to a sock. Then why would the BSA hold him up at the founder of Scouting? Why would the BSA point to him as a symbol of Scouting? Why would the BSA base so much of their program from his teaching? Why hasn't the BSA disassociated itself from this interloper?

  15. Backpacker,


    I would have a better chance with a coconut.


    Somewhere in Scouting's long and varied history, it would appear that an extremist group of strict constructionists has arisen, with the goal of hijacking the scouting program from the spirit and values on which it was founded. This too will pass (like a large kidney stone).



  16. "Part of belonging to a community is living by the rules of the community."


    Yeah, remind me to tell that to Holocaust victims. Give me a break...I can walk into my scout shop and buy the knot this afternoon and no one will say boo. The boy is so much more important than the uniform, its a shame that some people forget that.

  17. I love all of your technical answers...but, suppose the boy earns the award and suppose the boy does wear it on his shirt...what are you going to do? Tell him his religion don't count and rip it off him because some lawyers in Texas have a hangup. Let the boy wear it, that's the decent thing to do and IT DOESN'T HARM ANYBODY. I have seen uniforms on adults with a lot more problems than this...give the kid the encouragement to earn the award and let him show his pride in his accomplishment.

  18. So, BW what do you say...I want to know your answers? Was Baden-Powell wrong in instructing scoutmasters to use their own ingenuity in accomplishing the aims of scouting? When B-P said to make adjustments based on local conditions, was he wrong again? When B-P said it is the aims, not the methods, that we should focus on, was he wrong again? What else was B-P wrong about?


    Let's face it B-P never envisioned scouting as a legalistic program in which predetermined methods are the only means of achieving its lofty aims.



  19. BW,

    You obviously can't reconcile the fact that your views are diametrically opposed to those of B-Ps. I thought you said he was your hero...now you don't seem so sure. B-P gave us the Spirit of Scouting...in his own words he advised scoutmasters to use their ingenuity and creativity and to focus on the aims of scouting adjusting for local conditions, and not to focus on the methods. What you suggest is that the BSA is not an adherent to the spirit of scouting. I wander if they know that?


    By the way, how dare you call me a 'poter'...sticks and stones may break my bones but......



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