willysjeep

snowing, about 15 degrees at 2 in the afternoon, beautiful. Ya know, we had some trolls up at my summer camp last year, Camp Hiawatha. Elk Rapids Troop 46 IIRC. wouldn't be from around there, would ya?

At our camp we have permanent frames for the patrol flys, so we have just a piece of 1.5" pipe cemented into the ground. There's a slightly larger diameter short pipe welded to the bottom of the stove that drops over the cemented in pipe. We also have temporary setups with a pipe cemented into a large bucket. Helps reduce any chance of the stove getting moved too close to something like a tent or picnic table.

Basically, our stoves are a rectangular cube about 10 inches tall, 24 inches deep and mabey 18 inches wide. The sides are of I believe sheet metal of about 18 gauge, mabey a little thicker, and the top I think is 1/4" plate. We also have some that were all made from 1/4" plate, but that's just what they had at the time. We weld a ring made of large steel pipe on the top of the stovetop near a one corner so a 3" stove pipe can be installed. Our doors are hinged at the top, so gravity keeps them shut. They have a 1X4" opening with a sliding cover to ajust the draft. I think somebody took 1X1 square tubing pieces about 1" long and welded them to the sides so we could use these heavy wire mesh warming racks that dropped on.

They also have a short chain with a large ring welded to the door so the door can be opened with a stick or with a leather glove.

I almost think the first batch of sheep hearders we got were commercially made ones. I seem to remember some having a cast iron top with some reenforcement ribs on the inside and the sides being screwed to the top. All of our new ones now are built from scratch by a few retired metalworkers in the council.

Even when they get left out all summer they last a long time. If you wanted them to last even longer you might want to consider painting them with high temperature stove paint every year or two, that might help keep them from rusting out so soon.

The problem with LNT is that most people implement it either all or nothing. You can make a fire and make it so the site will heal within a few years, or you can make a stealth fire over some sand on a tarp and have no evidence at all. I live where there is no great massive high impact areas. Everywhere in the Hiawatha national forest is not too terribly impacted, but it's durable! If you dig a large enough pit for a fire and only go through the topsoil, keep the fire somewhat small, and replace the topsoil afterwards, watering it to boot, you have in effect put some nutrients back INTO the soil. The big thing to keep an eye on is that the grass next to the pit doesn't get scorched. If you do this on flat land and in well drained soil there is little erosion threat, and by all means you can do it and leave no trace, atleast in N. Michigan. Here, taking every word of LNT as the gosple is a royal PITA and often doesn't accomplish anything. No way I will EVER pack out a tube of poop or anything similar, just because it would do no good whatsoever where I live. I take LNT with a grain of salt and remember the outdoor code more. Be conservation minded....not preservation minded necisairily.

I am also sad that open fire cooking is so uncommon. From the ammount that I have done I really enjoy the satisfaction i get from it. One time it actually saved the day on a hike. Somebody forgot any oil or butter for the pancakes so there was no way to keep them from sticking in the pan. I had the chef pour some batter into my mess kit frying pan. I cooked it like normal over some coals, only when it came time to flip it I just proped the pan up next to the fire and let the top brown off. I'd eat it right from the pan, even though it was stuck a little it still tasted fine, and I didn't have to choke down scrambled pancakes.

Another time my patrol was really down in the dumps half way through summer camp. We were having major morale issues. The commisairy had given us these thin stakes to fry for lunch, but instead of fry them I sugjested (I was PL at the time) to roast them over the coals. We sort of made it a project, and it got everybody working a little and not just sitting around gettin bored. It was just diferent enough to perk up some spirits and salvage the day, and week.

Most of our sheep herders are built from scratch I think now. If you have a steel dealer by you chances are they can cut the plates you need. If you can locate somebody (volunteer) who can arc weld you are all set. PS, don't use aluminum pipe for stovepipe. My camp got this 3" aluminum conduit to use for stovepipe. Unfortunately our sheephearders burned hot enough to melt the aluminum pipe at the base. The heat also caused air bubbles and cold shuts in the pipe to expand, and when they pop the liquid aluminum flys everywhere. Only stovepipe from now on. If you can, get the top plate a little thicker than the sides so the top won't buckle when a half chord of dry oak gets shoved in it by some new scout.

we have "footsteps" at Camp Hiawatha. Basically it's a little pavilion where first year scouts pretty much just show up to work on basic ranks and skills. It isn't scheduled so you can do it whenever you decide to, unless you set up a time or something with a counselor. There are a few old comissioners and other old farts that hang out there and offer some guidance to whomever comes in. Basically it's a one on one tenderfoot, 2nd clas, 1st class workshop area. Of course in the Scoutcraft area, where this pavillion is located, the staff puts on totin' chip and firem'n chit sessions whenever a few people stop by and ask, so pretty much everybody who needs that gets it right away.

As for things like structured games, our camp doesn't like to limit them to first year campers. In the evening during free time there is allways ultimate frisbee, touch football, or volleyball games being organized in a corner of the parade ground. There is also a little obstacle course there that kids can run with minor supervision. We also have IIRC Bachi ball sets, NERF lawn darts I think mabey, and a few extra footballs, frisbees, and basketballs for the one, short hoop on a 10X20 concrete slab by the OA building.

Our first year program does focous on getting the basic requirements for the first few ranks done mostly, and the camp program in general is fun enough so that nobody feels left out.

We also offer the Audobon Jenkins award. You need to meet some criteria and participate in some level in every area of camp, and I think earn atleast a badge or two, and you get a patch and pin.

We also have like 6 ecology hikes, a 5 mile hike for the, what is it, 2nd class requirement, of course open swim and open rifle and archery.......come to think of it, you all should just come up here next year! (I'm on staff) Good Luck!

Run ons and various skits I have heard that were kind of neat:

guy with a small soda bottle. He opens it and looks inside the cap

"Please try again"

so he screws the cap back on, unscrews it again

"Please try again!"

repeats process again and again, muttering and walking off stage.

Guy comes out frantically yelling "Watch" and making a fool of himself. After a few laps he ends up at center stage, when he points to his wristwatch or a big pocket watch and says in a calm voice "watch"

Guy with an old pie pan or pot lid, with a big, big pole barn spike shoved through the center to make it look like a gigantic thumbtack. Goes running around with it above his head yelling "I'm under attack"

can also work with a salt shaker or salt box, yelling "I'm under assult" this can also work similarly with big cardboard signs with Appreciated or Paid or Stood written on them....you get the idea

Spring camp-o-ree only skit:

scout1 is standing on stage

scout2 walks out with a big spring made out of thick wire, or an old bedspring, something

scout2 says "here ya go, {name}"

scout1 takes the spring from scout2

Scout2 then grabs the spring back yelling "yoink" (old slang for stealing something)

scout1 says "what just happened!?"

Scout2 says "You just witnessed the first robbin' of spring"

This was adapted from an Ozy and Millie comic strip by D C Simpson if anybody cares.

Meritbadge follies. Get a few staffers from diferent areas to make fake merit badges and pretend to work on them all week and then have a moc court of honor at the campfire for them. Some popular fake badges a few years ago were Leisure merit badge, with requirements like gain 10 pounds, get a tan, and learn to delegate.......be creative.

we did this just as sort of an inside joke once. A buddy and I would walk towards each other from opposite sides of the stage. When we got a few feet apart we would do the old cowboy-gunfight crouch & circle and a friend of mine would do the Clint Eastwood Good, Bad, &ugly theme on a little ocharina. So we would circle a little and then just walk off stage. Later we would do the same thing only after a circle or two the guy off stage would walk on and ask what time it was and we would both quick draw pocket watches.

We also had tons of fun with an old stretcher from the health lodge. Once our fire builders were having some bad luck and a fire was almost out half way into a campfire. So one guy went on stage and yelled something like "It's fading fast, get the stretcher crew out here" and we would run out with the stretcher stacked with firewood and "revive" the fire, worked as a run-on. We did the "hup hup hup" quadruple time marching thing too, like in old cartoons and the 3 stooges movies. It got a few laughs. In fact, we found so many uses for that stretcher it was scary.

have a big chunk of rope on one side of the stage, with a piece of fish line tied to it, Have a guy drag it out on stage and another guy say "Why ya draging that rope"

the other guy says "Ya ever try pushing one?"

so the guy who didn't drag the rope on stage grabs the end the other guy had. Now a guy with the fishing line in hand and hiding behind something off stage pulls the rope back while the other guy, who started out on stage "pushes" the rope back off stage.

Have a big dome tent set up, and a scout with a little 1 man dome tent and a bucket of water hiding inside (this is a very questionable skit so use it wisely). The opening of the big tent must face stage left or stage right. Now the kid inside begins to shake the tent violently, and splashes the bucket of water out the door. After a little shaking he pushes the small 1 man dome tent out the door of the big tent slowly, keep the shaking up. the narrator says "And that's how tents are born/made (whatever sounds better)" You can also have the announcer be the crocodile hunter, a dull monotone nature film narrator, or a doctor. It even works good to have them get splashed with the water while crouching or leaning down about 8 feet infront of the door. Be sure to set this up so the firelight doesn't cast a shadow of what's going on inside the tent and give it away to the audience right away.(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

With all of the possible outdoor activities for scouts these days I often see troops getting specialized. I know of a troop that approaches each and every campout as though it were a low impact backpacking trip. All hiking equipment, backpacks, "hiking" food. And I think to myself "great, but when did hiking become the high pincale of camping?"

I guess the bug bit me when I met a man named Mr Oslund. He had a canvas lean-pee set up and had a big group of people captivated with a rope trick he was performing. All I could think of at the moment was "whoa, that's a cool tent". Now I realise that things have changed a lot since the lean-pee was the apex of camping technology, but still that little bug was sinking it;s fangs into me. I was hooked on old traditional stuff. I guess i'm not alone. The BSA catalog still sometimes offers traditional style equipment, but why don't others give it a try ever?

I know there are a lot of buckskinners and Civil War reenactors out there that camp out with old equipment. Why is this romantic notion so absent in scouting? My old troop had a pertty diverse schedule allways. We hiked, canoed, and car-camped at camp-o-rees and had a good time. I see the traditional camping as just another way to enjoy what I already do. Now a lot of what was once done is now frowned upon by the Guide to safe scouing. I guess using a fire to heat a lean-to would be a little overboard. Some things, however, like simple canvas tarp tents, can actually be more comfortable than modern gear. Likewise, with a small canvas pack you aren't hauling the kitchen sink with, so after a few hikes you are hardly carrying any frivelous extras, and having a more enjoyable experience because technology is no longer a heavy crutch to help you get around your poor skills.

I guess my point is that I would like to see more traditional ideas like open fire cooking, basic scoutcraft, sleeping under the stars, and mabey I've just seen too many Norman Rockwells but I kind of like the looks of a scout in a square neckerchief and campaign hat.

I also hate to see somebody be actually shielded from a certain type of camping just because the troop is too set in their ways to try something diferent, like in the backpacking troop. I feel sad that they probably won't try a dutch oven because they're too heavy, even if they are camping right next to their cars. Besides, there is more to camping than just backpacking.

In light of the recent situation I would like to propose a new plan for our old beloved summer camp. Taking Camp Hiawatha *wink wink* as an example I would like to

1) do away with the dining hall as it does nothing to support the patrol method. Instead I would like to require patrol cooking. Of course we would need to have some equipment available if the troop requested it, but no more of this dining hall nonsense.

2) I would like to see that every campsite is equipped with only a latrine and fire pit. Dining flys, and tents should be available from the camp quartermaster if a troop should request it. After all, we are supposed to be teaching these boys about camping, so why do all of the work for them? Let them pitch their own site with the guidance of the site guide and their leadership. If a troop wishes to provide their own tents for the week the camp should offer them some discount to compensate them for the savings on our equipment.

3) hire a staff of scouts, pay them a decent wage, and have an intensive staff week. I would like to have enough staff so that if some people wished to leave they wouldn't be letting anybody down. Don't make the one or two bad apples feel obligated to stay, as all staffs will have a few.

4) reenforce some of the more traditional scoutcraft skills. I would like to see a nature class where scouts learn to move quietly and observe animals without scaring them off. I would like to see more scouts cook over open fires when they can. and I would like to see more scouts less dependant on half a truck load of equipment to be "comfortable" in camp. A high adventure program offering minni over night and 3 day options would be nice.

5) I would also like to see a "traditional" overnight campout established. I would like to look at it as sort of a living museum exhibit. I'm sure with all of the long standing troops in the council that a collection could be put together for some historic gear to stock in the quartermaster's building for just such an occasion. A patrol could sign up and have the loan of a patrol cook set, wool blankets, canvas tarps, and an axe. Other historic items like canvas backpacks could also be available. These scouts would take a short hike to an outpost campsite and enjoy how caming once was long ago, and possibly come to appreciate their modern equipment more, or possibly learn to enjoy some older equipment.

6) I would like to get rid of our camp's rumor as a merit badge mill and approach badges from a less strict goal oriented method. All to often a scout will forget half of what he memorizes for a badge anyways. Why not instead of forcing the entire thing on him, take it at a slower pace and let him learn what he is supposed to. Of course this would lead to more "partial" merit badge cards for the scoutmaster, but I can gurantee that the scouts could remember what they did when they might actually need the information later on.

7) I would like to see our shooting sports programs become more mainstream. make them as fun as possible and encourage more things like open shoots, friendly competitions, the postal shoot, and of course offer all of the shooting sports badges we possibly could.

In closing..... please hire me because if you don't I'll spend all year hibernating in my cave off in the woods with nothing to do but post into internet message boards!

Oh and lastly, I would like to develop a short, end of the season, and possibly congruent with the boyscout program, cub camp. Cub packs don't go camping nearly enough, so I would like to offer them another opportunity other than resident camp to come up and camp. I would especially like to offer a Webelos overnighter some time during Boyscout camp just to possibly introduce the webelos a little better to boyscouting.

If you want to go some place up north, Isel Royal is a great trip. If you take the boat from Houghton you will go right by the porkies. Mabey you could make it a combined trip. I have only been to the porkies a little, even though I'm only a few hours away. The scenery is as beautiful as anywhere in the Upper Peninsula. Isle royal is also a beautiful spot, but don't expect to scale any cliffs or anything. It is some of the most beautiful country I can imagine everywhere around here. There really aren't any scout bases or anything over there. The closest scout camp would be either BearPaw in Wisconsin, or Camp Hiawatha about a days drive to the east (I work there over the summer). If you wanted to check out the Pictured Rocks Nat'l Lakeshore you might be able to cut a deal with Camp Hiawatha for some accomidations. Pictured Rocks is another beautiful place to see. Most of it is close to roads (a few miles) so it isn't exactly the last frontire, but it is an enjoyable and scenic hike. In any event, check out the web for sites about the Porkys, which are a Michigan state park, Isle Royal Nat'l Park, or Pictured Rocks Nat'l Lakeshore. You Could also hike the Grand Island trail if you wanted It goes from a town called Rapid River north to near Munising and the Pictured Rocks. It's sort of a wannabe long trail, I don't know the exact distance but it'd sure get you a 50 miler patch or two, and if you made it a combined trip you could also check out the Pictured rocks. Few of them are perfect stand alone trips if you are driving from a few states away, but if you combined a few diferent activities you could sure have one heck of a time up here. Of course, check them out for yourself! We all could use some more tourisim up here!

Not to say that you couldn't spend a week or two at any of the places. There is enough trail at Pictured Rocks or the Grand Island trail to keep a troop occupied for more than a week if you really wanted. It's all beautiful!(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

Ok, I started posting here just after I turned 18, and I was still sort of looking for my new place in my troop. I'm over the whole merit badge bent. I think somebody told me that they did change the eagle badge rules recently, allowing adults to wear the actual badge IIRC. if not then it has become a troop tradition, so either way I guess I'm coming to terms with my age.

OK, I have a similar question to pose here. Who knows what all of those knots mean besides the people who have already earned them. If a cubscout sees a person with the AOL knot on their shirt it just looks like another knot, but if he sees the arrow of light patch that he wants to get on his cubmasters uniform he is bound to know what it means. Likewise with the eagle badge, only eagles or those who make it their business actually know what the eagle knot looks like, but everybody in scouting can figure out that somebody is an eagle if they are wearing the eagle rank patch. It serves a better function than the "Scouter knot code" that only serves to give scouts a vague idea that a scouter has done something important at some time. Another thing is that actually wearing the patches tells everybody around you that you have completed them and (hopefully) are proficient in those skills. It serves a practical purpose to know who has lifesaving and first aid, or even orienteering or indian lore at a glance by looking at their shirt. I don't see how wearing awards that you have earned before turning 18 harms anybody if you continue to wear them after 18.

A man once said to me "Why would you want to wear a rank badge, to prove that you are as good as a 12 year old boy?" Well, yes! It doesn't matter that I'm over 18, I haven't forgotten the skills. I just think it serves no purpose.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I like to complain a lot.......

Bob White,

I was under the impression that liability didn't become an issue until parents wished to seek legal retribution. I think that a lot of parents would happily sue anybody they could if their child were injured. The abuse of the legal system these days are so gross that if any of these organizations were to fall into the crosshairs of a greedy lawsuit slinging parent who wanted to take advantage of the situation they would soon be bled dry. The organizations that are liable would really only have a problem if the parents chose to sue, which they are pretty likely to do in this day and age no matter who was at afult for the injury.

That's it right there! liability! SO many activities have been frowned upon by parents because Junior might get a boo-boo playing football or something. I bet now if a scout troop were called upon by a government entity for help like serving on a fire crew, filling sand bags in a flood area, helping to clear fallen trees after a windstorm, or even something as simple as helping the injured to medical aid in an emergency area their parents would probably throw a major temper tantrum. Those types of things aren't necisairily that dangerous or technical, but because of the miniscule chance of injury doing some of it that parents would probably pitch a fit.

Scouts are awarded medals for heroisim, but if they actually preformed an act worthy of one of those medals in the presence of an adult and were injured I'm sure the adult would probably be sued for negligence or something. I think that is a tad hpocritical, but given the number of these medals awarded I bet it would not be an issue too often.

I just thought of this. All throughout scouting, scouts pitched in in emergencies. They have acted as couriers, forest fire crews, as emergency search and rescuers, and many other important jobs during emergencies. In fact, the saftey MB still requires a practice troop mobilization. My thought is are the current rules of scouting preventing these scouts from pitching in during emergencies, or are local scouters just stepping back and letting professionals do the job. I really have never in recent times heard of a troop serving as a group in an emergency, only of individual volunteers. Are saftey concerns from national preventing scouts from working in disaster areas, or is it just a lack of need that keeps scouts from pitching in? Mabey this is just a local issue because my area doesn't see too many disasters, but I still question this.

Even if it's not a utility issue, there is no way to justify it as a saftey issue so there is no point to making a rule aganst them. Besides, I like to get a tool that will serve under abuse ten times greater than I will ever give it, not one that will get the job done only if used mildly. Everything has it's place and I think the outdoors is the right place for sheath knives. By the way, I don't dig with mine, I make a digging stick. I really don't want to dull the edge on a big chunk of rock. One big plus of a sheath knife is it fills the gap between pocket knife and hatchet quite nicely. You can use a sheath knife to split small pieces of wood that wouldn't yield to a pocket knife. A hatchet on a hike is too heavy unless you do a lot with fires, but a pocket knife is usually too weak to prepare firewood, but a sheath knife strikes a balance between the two allowing smaller fires without carrying a hatchet. Sheath knives are not a saftey hazard, and that is the main premise of my argument, it doesn't matter if they were totally useless to me they shouldn't be banned.

No to be rude either, but just how does campin adversely effect asthmatics? I can understand how hiking or canoeing could put extra strain on somebody spurring on an attack, but what parts of other types of camping can cause problems?

I would think that in car camping would not place a large physical strain on a body, and I would also think that the fresh air and open spaces of the woods might actually be better for a person with a respiratory condition than at home in the house. If allergies were the trigger for an asthma attack then the trip date could be ajusted to better conditions. Also, over the counter allergy medicines might lessen the risk of an attack, although I don't know how much.

Again, not to be rude, but a troop should not have to suffer and be held back just to accomidate a small minority with medical conditions. Camping is a foundation of scouting and if they aren't able to camp then they shouldn't really hold back others from doing so, especially if they don't do anything with scouts in the time that they should be camping (IE: no weekend meetings where a campout would have been).

All of the above ideas about how to get camping time in are great. Mabey to get the ball rolling on PLC's you could put out a few telephone calls before the first few meetings and try to explain their importance. Drum up support for the troop making it's own decisions on everythign, not just having an idea handed to them for their approval.

Hi,

I have just completed a project from the Handicraft section of the 1948 scout handbook. It is a 9 foot by 9 foot canvas rectangle with tie tapes and grommets in strategic locations so it can be pitched in many diferent ways as a tent. I used RIT tan dye to color the fabric and waterproofed it somewhat with silicone water guard spray (I hope it works otherwise I need to spend morme money on waterproofing, but the garden hose test tomorrow will tell) and sewed it together from medium canvas that was in the $1/yard bin at the local WalMart.

Who else actually made one of these ever? If you did, how did you most often pitch it? What did you use to waterproof the fabric? Does anybody else remember these?

I am certainly not a 1948 model myself so I wouldn't actually know if this was a very common project, but does anybody ever remember making these back in the day? I'm happy with how it turned out, and tomorrow it gets the hose test to see where it leaks and where it doesn't. Might be a fun item to experiment with at the next campout too.

Dat'l Do It Devil Drops

made from the Datil pepper of FLA.

Good stuff. Has a mild first taste and then the heat hits you. HOT!

And of course my good friend Mr. Habanero, I grow a few in my garden for the people I don't like, and for special batches of chile.

You must bear in mind that there are three or more "offical" wall tents available with diferent, yet somewhat similar dimensions. You should also remember that mosquito netting cot drapes are only so large too. Also, my summer camp has a few older discontinued diferent yet size wall tents. Mabey fitting the PVC to a commercially made mosquito net for a cot would be better, it'd be small enough for any scout tent just about, instead of fiting it to the tent and building the net for it.

I just found out that a few supply houses make eagle whistles out of turkey bones! In fact, a ready made one is going for 50 UK pounds on one site, but I don't want to pay that much. I think I'll get a butterball and mabey buy a little resin cast whistle to use as a pattern. Thanks again for the ideas but it looks like I found a good economical option. Same thing for turkey feathers, I'm OK with them now, given the time period I would be shooting for.

Did a little research on the laws, Eagles and hawks and falcons are pretty much off limits to me as near as I can tell.

My local tribe would have been the Noquet, but the Ojibway would also be very close. I plan on making my regalia as close to the Ojibway style as possible. As it turns out the Ojibway did not traditionally use too many feathered head dresses, they would have worn an otter turbin or possibly a porcupine roach, but later on just about every tribe would have worn the eagle feather head dress as it became immensely popular in the early 1900's. By then immitation eagle feathers could have been used so I am considering that option also.

The Ojibway's claim to fame as far as clothing goes was their floral pattern beadwork, which I plan on imitating from an older set of regalia in my family and using on my shirt, leggings, and breech. I guess the issue of using turkey feathers is over for me, as I have found proof that it would have been done once the feathered bonnet became used by the Ojibway.

In regards to my other question I first have to see if any other birds have a wing bone of a similar size to that of an eagle. If I can locate a "legal to own parts of" bird with a wing bone like an eagle then I should be able to make an eagle whistle out of it. The one thing I really want to avoid is plastics, so if I can't make one of real bone there is really no point to it. It would be just a little accessory anyways, so it isn't a big deal if I can't make one. Mabey making one wiht the resin cast whistle as a pattern would be good. Ah well, I guess I will have to see how that works out.

Thanks for the ideas and thoughts!

That is a good point, I am not native american by birth, so I really have no right to use actual eagle parts, the law actually forbids it unless I am a member of a reckognized tribe. That is in part why I was asking about alternate feathers.

Using dyed turkey feathers as eagle feathers may look right, but I don't think that native americans would have. I want to make my regalia as correct as possible without offending anybody. Dyed turkey feathers I guess could have been used before the 1900's but they would not have been used in the place of eagle feathers. I would imagine they would have been used as turkey feathers.

How did they traditionally use the feathers of crows, turkeys, and geese? Also, were any birds considered disrespectful, taboo, and were their feathers not to be worn? Did they have any headware that did not contain eagle feathers but did use those of other birds?

Thanks for the ideas!

I'm not quite sure who can answer this for me. I would like to know what feathers other than eagle or immitation eagle can be used appropriately in a head dress. I am thinking about seriously updating my regalia(sp?) and I don't want to "fake" anything this time around as long as I'm putting all this effort into it. I know eagle feathers were used because of the noble qualities of the eagle and the reverence the natives have for them. With endangered species laws and the scarcity of eagles around most of the stuff that would have once been eagle feather is now dyed turkey feather, and I don't want that. I would like to know historically which other feathers would be found in a head dress, and which ones if any would be taboo. I was thinking that another raptor that is not protected (raven, crow) or a more nobel bird like a hawk feather from a falconer might be more appropriate. I just don't want to end up making something that will make the local tribe furious with me, and I don't want to immitate eagle feathers.

Oh, along those lines. I was also wondering, just as an opinion question, which do you think would be more appropriate at a drumming event: A resin cast immitation eagle whistle, or a real bone eagle whistle made from the bone of a raven or other similarly sized bird? Again, I would tend to lean towards the real thing, but would using the bone from a raven be a taboo in the drum circle?

Any comments would be appreciated.

For those of you who aren't in the OA and reading this:

The practices of the OA can not be kept a secret from you on an offical level. If you absolutely must know the details of everythign that goes on you can ask at your local council office and I believe they must tell you.

Having said that, there is no rule to make anybody privately tell you what is going to happen. The OA is not a cult, the ordeal is not some kind of frat enitiation, and there is nothing done there that wouldn't be acceptable at a normal scout function. The OA was once treated as a secret sociotey.

I feel that if you aren't in the OA and dig enough to find out what the OA is all about then you probably don't belong there anyways. If you do get elected and try to get people to let you in on the big secret then the ordeal won't mean jack to you so you aren't doing it for the right reason. If you get elected, but don't try to "cheat the system" and just pay attention to what is going on you will leave there with a great appreciation for what you have accomplished. The goal is not just to get in, it's to leave with something special too, so don't try to cheat the system and you will be better off.

Nothing bad happens at any OA function. It's a part of scouting that is a great honor.

Look in an old 1970's or earlier scoutbook for some great made from scratch ideas that are simple enough, yet not too common, for everybody. Cooking over an open fire can add a new dimension to the whole experience too. Grilling steaks, a ham, or even cornish game hens on strings are all fun and taste great. Dehydrated ingredints can be fun to work with too, and can be prepared weeks in advance at a troop meeting as long as a parent comes back to check on them the next day. Dried beans and fruits are more of a traditional ingredient and can make some pretty hearty meals. Adding refried beans to a pot of chile can thicken it up pretty nicely, if you allow tin cans.

BBQ'd SPAM is a good quick meal that may not be 100% origonal but it is fun and is a change in menu. Just roast the spam on a stick over a low fire and paint it with BBQ sauce.

Cooking whole fish in clay in the coals can work nicely. Some things just require a diferent cooking method. If your boys take the time to make a bean hole or set up a fire site for open fire cooking then they won't want to waste their energy on making a pot of macaroni. They might want to make the best use of their work and actually make a big pot of baked beans or a slow cooked stew.

Fresh eggs will keep for a week without refrigeration, or seven with. If you take a fresh egg and dip it in melted wax it will keep longer too. They are all sterile on the inside and only spoil when a micro-organisim penetrates the shell, the wax helps stop this. Fresh eggs can be baked in coals, or used in more traditional methods and taste a lot better than powdered.

Try a few local wild plants once in a while. They can add a little special twist to even the most uninspired meals. Another good thing to try is making a criteria for each meal.

Baking dutch oven bread or reflector oven bread is also a good way to add a little to a meal, especially a stew or chile. DUmplings are good too.

Look through some old scout books and you will get a ton of ideas for meals that don't use a lot of prepared ingredients.

It's funny but this just came up at my troop meeting the day I saw this thread here. Strange coincodence.