willysjeep

We have had female venturers on staff. We have cabins across the lake from the scout camp that were part of a little hole in the wall fishing resort in the 70's. We call them te "family side" for a reason. the families of staffers and even to some extent the families of campers can rent a little cabin. There are allways vacant cabins, so female staffers bunk together in one. This combined with the mile walk and all of the old adult staffers who rent cabins over tere there have never been problems. Plus the girls mother was on staff, I'm sure that helped.

true about the G2SS. No matter what when you set a rule in stone some people are bound to think it is too strict and some people are bound to think it's not strict enough. Beyond that though some people make up their own safety guidelines. Like I actually got a "talking to" for slicing an apple and eating it with a completely dull butter knife from one leader in my troop. You know, take a slice of apple and pop it in your mouth. "If somebody bumps your elbow you could get cut with that knife" the man said. I guess this guy must think forks are dangerous to put near your mouth too.

But anyways, I guess I just see some of the rules as a little overbearing. Not that I break them (I still remember the stuff about a good scout not breaking unfair rules but seeking to get them changed through the proper channel).

I am actually considering switching troops. There is certainly no shortage of adults in my home troop. There are plenty of established troops though in the next town over. I wouldn't mind driving ten minutes to be with a group of scouters who are more pleasant to be around. Actually, some pretty good older scouts are switching into my current troop from another area. I think I will stick around and see if they are enough to get my troop to change for the better. If not, there are plenty of people in other troops I have gotten to know through summer camp and district events. Might as well go experience some other troops and see if there's something better out there.

The issue may not be the colors at all but the shades and patterns. Camouflage basically blends you in with the shadows and light patterns of the woods.If camo were all grey and black it might still work well hiding from deer in a green and brown woods. That funky world war two camo doesn't match the colors of any where very well, but the pattern makes the human form less visible because the form is broken up. The tent thing I admit is a stretch for a defense for camouflage. Still, there is a part of low impact that deals with the immediate impact of a group (noise, bright colors). I remain firm that it is not necisairily a bad idea and that if camouflage were "un-banned" I don't think the public image of scouting would change in the least.

A lot of my complaints apply to my troop more than to scouting in general. Even within my troop though I often wonder if it is worth stirring things up just to try to get some little change made.

Some of my complaints stem from the general attitude that I seem to get from the program. It seems like the focous has switched from being masculine and outdoors oriented to being politically correct and neutral and inoffensive even if it means stifling useful information.

Personally, in my troop, I would like to see more sensible leadership with less emotional crybaby adults and wannabee drill sargents. My troop is terribly political. If you don't please the right people you won't go far. If my troop were to be fixed this might lead to my whole point of view changing.

I would like to see less monkeying around with the uniforms and lower costs so scouts could be in uniform on camping trips. I would also like to see more of a focous put back on looking like a scout, not like a kid in some shirt with patches. The uniform is more than the shirt. This isn't something that any policy or rule could change, it's just the attitude of the scouts today.

I would like to see more descretion left to the troop leadership in regards to safety. Every rule in scouting has to apply equally to 11 and 18 year olds, and often they are overly cautious for many real world situations. Of course again, the adult leadership is responsible for implementing these rules fairly.

Changes within my troop would definantly make things better. Still, mabey it's unfair of me to complain about the whole program just because it isn't exactly like it was in 1948.

"For example, it is now prohibited for Scouts to participate in close order drill (marching)"

I think this is a myth, otherwise how could Mackinac Island Scout Service Camp get away with it. The MISSC office at the state park sets the regulations for troops serving at the camp, and one is that any group of scouts in uniform on official business has to march. We even march to the swimming pool at the Grand Hotel. We hold usually about two weekend long trainings before the camp and one thing we cover is marching. We march to flags, we march from flags, we march down town, we march to the grand buffet, we march to the swimming pool, we march to the boat docks when we leave. basically we march a lot. I hope the above rule is another myth, I see MISSC as the absolute most scoutly thing I have ever done.

As for cmaouflage, well it serves other purposes than to "hide from your enemies" After all, ins't low impact camping sort of practical camouflage? Did you know that the scout uniform is designed to belnd into the wilderness to lighten the visual impact on the landscape. How does a blaze orange tent fit into low impact camping? How about a brightly colored pack? How about disturbing the wildlife in an area? Comouflage isn't just for paramilitary whackos, it has some practical applications too and it is often enither low quality or expensive. Those terms can be aplied to many things but they aren't often used as a basis for banning somehting.

I have to say someting here. My grandmother gave me an old beat up copy of the 1948 handbook when I was 5 years old. It was my first exposure to scouting, and I was hooked. I'm just about 20 now and my grand illusion of how scouting is has been almost totally shattered. Reading the old handbooks time and time again kind of set me up for some sort of norman rockwell-esq scouting experience. The newest two handbooks which I used as a scout allways seemed lacking in some areas. Scouting as a whole has changed a lot since 1948 and I don't think allways for the better. Yet still, I am a slave to the notions that I grew up with and it pains me so much that no matter how hard I try and how much I want it scouting will never be all what I had thought. There are too many politicians and not enough outdoorsmen leading troops. I for one think it's time for a change. Unfortunately the people who made scouting "better" can't admit that it isn't better, and they don't want anybody to change their changes. They can call somebody wrong, but they can't stand to be called wrong themselves. I don't think I could ever get the program to change by myself, and I don't know if there are a lot more people who think like me out there, so for now I am stuck just dreaming I guess.

Ok, now i'm lost. What did I miss?

Interesting story. There was a fella on summer camp staff many years ago who only wore gallouses to keep his pants up. He got razzed one year about them not being uniform, so the next year he had a pair of OD green suspenders for everybody on staff. Thet matched the scout pants perfectly. I think they were called "the boss" or something. Really interesting design. They only had two clips and clipped onto your pants right on the side. So, for a few years there were "official" suspenders on summer camp staff at least. OD green worked great for scouts, but I shudder to think of them in gold for cubbers. I say go for what works.

I bought one recently for a 15 year old guy I was on summer camp staff with. He wanted one because he collected pins, and you can wear a few more pins on an overseas cap and not look like a dork. They sell for a few bucks on E-bay. Nice, but I like my surplus store campaign hat just as well. I don't understand why I can find a hat that meets all the BSA specifications (size, shape, material, made in USA) that costs under 1/3 of what the BSA wants for their official hat. Beats a $20 ball cap with some wild logo and an FDL stuck in there. More "scoutly" too. It seems like the new uniform stuff is like "stealth uniforming" in that it meets some basic requirments but looks too civilian to be easily identified as boyscout stuff. Yeah, I miss them good ol' days, and I didn't even get to live them the first time. I'm like the Don Quixote of scouting, 20 years old and remenescing about how it was in 1920......

I may have a somewhat warped take on this topic. Back in the day the scout uniforms and the military uniforms were ereily identical. You couldn't tell if it were a scout campaign at or a military campaign hat because there was no diference what so ever. This was done, so I have been told, because surplus uniforms could be had anywhere for cheap, were extremely durable, and could be used in many situations. Not that the BDU is perfect, but if they went back to the original idea they could make something that could be used in many diferent situations, so here are my ideas.

1) Cotton is not an issue unless the temperature is low. Now I don't expect the newer nylon shirts to fair any better than a higher percentage cotton shirt if it gets wet. So, have ONE heavy cotton shirt. Like the BDU, but with some more shirt like qualities so it isn't like wearing a jacket. Basically a heavy cotton or blended wool even shirt in long sleevs, pretty much like what we have only mabey made with recycled fiber to get the cost down. Now the "cotton kills" argument comes into play. Cotton doesn't kill any more than nylon saves (campfire accidents?). It's all about preperations. You won't die if you wear a cotton shirt, as long as you are smart enough to cope with it if you get soaked and it gets cold.

2) Heavy cotton trousers, with some thought given to pockets. OD green, just like now, only one style.

3) mabey make the long uniforms all wool blended. After all, if you need a long sleeved shirt don't you obviously need warmth? Why not recycled wool. Make the short uniforms cotton. After all if you are wearing shorts, do you expect them to keep you warm in a blizzard? Basically, make two uniforms in appropriate materials and call it good.

4) find alternate sources for the campaign hats. Why not? Scout uniforms aren't exactly "cool" by most standards. Instead of coming up with a "super groovy ultra hip" baseball cap every few years why not just stick with one of the most identifiable and useful boyscout head coverings ever devised? I have a 100% made in USA campaigner that only cost $30. Yes, probably twice what a BSA ball cap costs, but much, much less than the official campaign hat for the eact same look. There is just no excues!

Make functional neckerchiefs mandatory again. I have one 36X36 square that is heavy enough to act as a scarf in the winter or it can be worn loose in the summer with no ill effects. Plus, have you ever tried to use the new trianglar travesties for slings? have you ever had the courage to use one as a washcloth? a yard of cloth at wal-mart is less than two bucks.

Mabey it's just me but I don't see a kid in green pants, akwardly wearing a khaki shirt all buttoned to the chin with no neckware, and a baseball cap that aside from having a FDL in it somewhere looks like 99% of them on earth is all too scoutly. Now take this same guy, or even somebody wearing kahkis and a t-shirt, and give him a campaign hat and neckerchief and he instantly becomes identifiable as a boyscout. And, if they didn't offer so many hats and the like they could get less expensive campaign hats too. A uniform uniform, now don't that beat all?

The hi tech fabric idea is great but they aren't absolutely necisairy. Wool and cotton are cheaper and can be just as functional under probably 99% of the camping most scouts do. Plus, when you establish a precident there isn't the temptation to "improve" the heck out of it in later years, making things les suniform, more expensive, and more niche oriented and less useful in the broad scope of things.

Offer an inexpensive, not flamable, quiet, and durable outwear option. Mabey like a BDU jacket? Possibly some other kind of single layered durable shell. Mabey like they had long ago? Or find a way to get the cost down on the jac-shirt. I hear woolrich is going off shore anyways and if that happens hopefully BSA will drop them. I heard somewhere the BSA won't buy foreign made merchandise. Get some no-name company to make them from recycled wool fiber and you could get them down to $30 probably.

Like I said, I'm probably going against the grain with some of my ideas. Not that any of them will probably ever come to fruition.

Mabey I'm a Don Quixote in scouting, but I like it that way.

I hear ya about the shoulder straps. I solved some of the problem by sewing up a nice wide tump line to take some of the load off my shoulders. Also, I am carrying a 9X9 foot canvas tarp tent I made from some old plans in an outdated handbook. I bet this tarp is a bit larger than the average shelter half. Of course I am also using a 3 point wool blanket which is probably smaller than the average sleeping bag. I guess it all evens out.

I am sort of trying to simplify my camping experience. I have spend years hauling way too much. Now I am looking at things from a more minimalist perspective. What I have discovered to some extent is that older gear is strikingly similar to what minimalists use today. Frameless packs, tarp tents, blankets....plus it gives me a chance to see what all of these old timers experienced back in the day. Again, with a smaller bag I am restricted in what I can pack. Even before I made "the switch" in my thinking I was packing about 25-30 pounds for a summer hike a week long. Even then I brought some useless junk that I could have done without. I will have to give my yucca a try this summer with some of my other older style gear as well.

It's kind of funny. I have an old handbook that shows a hypothetical backpack with the blankets and tent neatly packed in the bag with food and a mess kit and all this other stuff. Apparently they had tents and blankets about the size of handkerchiefs at the time because my blanket alone just about fills the pack to capacity. Other than that, it looks like I won't be hurting too much for room if the tent and blanket stay outside. I also did a little research o tump lines and if I ever give this pack a real life trial on the trail then I will give the tump line a shot too.

OK, here goes another one. I just recently got an old yucca pack to fool around with. Mabey some of you experienced folks could help me out here. How in the heck do you lash all of your gear to them? I have boiled it down to rolling my bedroll and tarp tent into a big sausage and wearing it "civil war style" ontop of the bag and held down by the flap, and lashed to the bottom D rings on the sides. This makes the pack pretty compact, but for some reason it doesn't seem right to have that big roll of blankets lashed to the outside of the pack. So, how were the old canvas yucca packs actually used in the field back in the good ol' days?

dancinfox

you are from michigan, and looking to save some money? Check out my summer camp. Last year was my second (non-consecutive) year on staff at Camp Hiawatha in Munising, in da U.P. Our rates are the lowest in the state. IIRC it's about $130 per scout. 100% patrol camping and patrol cooking, we offer tons of merit badges....sorry, couldn't resist the little plug there.

Up here Hiawatha is THE summer camp. There are no othre really convienient options. We get a lot of repeats and a few out of council people too. Actually, we had a troop from Elk Rapids last summer. We have also had troops from Detroit are and Chicago area councils, and visitors from Zimbabwe and Denmark.

the material the flag was made of is not revered, and neither is the flag (to me) atleast not any more than what it stands for. what I revere is what the flag stands for, encluding free speach. Granted, it wasn't so nice of him to wear it as a shirt, but chances are he didn't do it intentionally.

Exactly, they are old, tired, and not that funny to begin with. If only slightly cleaner than Many Moons, the tent skit is still much more original at this point. There are even better ones out there that are totally clean if you look hard. It's just that somebody's definition of clean can be pretty diferent from another persons.

True, morse code may be a bit outdated, but it is no less useful today, if scouts still knew it, than it was in 1911. As for stalking and tracking, I am really sad that that requirement is gone too. Tracking and stalking are skills that I wish I had learned as a scout. Now I have to pick them up by myself. I do find that I get to experience nature more fully by being able to read tracks and follow animals though. Mabey they could reintroduce it under nature study or low impact or something. After all, if a deer doesn't notice you, you are probably less visible to other hikers too.

So, here are some things that I wish were back in the program in some degree:

Sheath Knives (I think they're OK and we had a discussion a while back on them)

Stalking/Tracking

Signaling

less watered down wilderness survival skills

The pregnant tent skit definantly goes into a grey area. I saw it done at a campfire once pretty tastefully(compared to others), and it certainly was much cleaner than "The Roler Coaster/Latrine" or "Many Moons" or "cooking pot/latrine" skits. Althought I admit it is definantly not approprioate for cub scouts. Even SLIGHTLY risque humor can be used in some situations. Getting pooped on while down a latrine, drinking from a "latrine" cooking pot, or being "tricked" into faking an attack of explosive diareah on stage isn't subtle, but they are all done so often that we all know them.

Oops! No, no scout needs to know edible plants anymore. IIRC the official stance in the Wilderness Survival pamphlet says something like

1) you'll probably poison yourself

2) food uses up water, you can go a long time without food

3) you probably can't tell what is safe, see No 1

Funny how prioritys change huh? At one time the wilderness survival book talked about knapping arrow points and building wikiups and figure 4 deadfalls. Now it tells you to not eat any wild foods. Change ain't allways that great.

I think I read somewhere online that they made some "experimental" green jackets for "professional" scouters to wear when a field uniform would be inappropriate, like the official adult business uniform today. I guess they thought they might get in trouble with the PGA for having a green jacket or something. Unless mabey it was a blue wool coat for professionals and a green for ventures, I forget which. Anyways I guess they got rid of the green and blue jac-shirts when they got a new "color identity" scheme in the 60's, making it a universal red ja-shirt. I would still like to get a green jac-shirt if I could find one in men's 46. Mabey I should just find a green woolrich or filson jac-shirt and wear it as a jacket on campouts as a non official item, as a regular cool weather jacket would be.

Hi all, again

I think I saw in the "uniform" board a thread on the red woolrich jac-shirt that there once were green jac-shirts for scouts and red for scouters. About how long ago did this practice cease?

As long as I'm asking about jac-shirts, did anybody but woolrich ever make the official ones, or was it an exclusive type thing? I know that the BSA has had other equipment made by just about every company in that perticular business at some time (Axes by Collins, Keen Kutter, and Plumb, along with the generic offical inexpensive axes). Were the Jac-Shirts something similar?

To tell you the truth I think green is a better choice for such a garment. Scouts, especially in the age of low impact everything, shouldn't stick out like a bright red sore thumb in the woods. I know there are saftey concerns about scouts dressing inconspicuously, but I still feel that there are more times when it is better not to be seen in the woods. Plus, I guess I am now officially a collector, so just having one might be neat.

IIRC, if you get a hat from the catalog, it should come with the band, and possibly the insignia. They ptobably expect it to be in the right spot when you get it, so they probably don't address how it should be.

I bought an army surplus store el-cheapo last summer. It is brand new, made by the "campaign" company, and is made in the USA. It is not the offical Stetson or any other famous brand, but it is made in the USA and fits me well. I took off the goofy vinyl chin strap and replaced it with a leather lace and rawhide slider. I also got the old First Class pin for it, and the Adult one too. I still am tempted to get the official leather hatband too. I guess the BSA started using the Campaign hat because army surplus ones were so easy for boys to get at the time, so I don't feel bad at all about mine not being "official". I did buy the hat flattener for it though from the catalog (cheapest one out there believe it or not).

So, does the scotch guard keep it pretty spiffy in the rain, or will it still get really bad and saggy? does it make your head sweat any more or less than an untreated hat. One hot summers' wear lead me to find out that if you sweat a lot the front of the brim will droop pretty bad and it will look like a campaign fedora. That's why I got the flattener in the first place.

Got my old (Imperial I think) mess kit and canteen with aluminum stopper off of e-bay about a year ago. Got the Imperial leather cased chow set too. they are a LOT better than the new stuff I had. Kind of funny, that mess kit was in great shape, like it wasn't used even. I have already baked bread in the frying pan. I also snagged a reflector oven, offical even, that I polished up and plan on using this summer. I'm hoping to make this summer an "antique equipment" summer. Working on a mostly complete camping outfit that would fit in about 1948. I even made up a bedroll with a light canvas cover and a wool blanket inside. Surprisingly it's pretty light and just as small as a light sleeping bag, and it has some added utility and durability. I also made up a light canvas Trail Tent from plans in the '48 handbook my grandma gave me when I was a little kid. I also dug out a canvas Yucca pack that I got a long time ago, now all I need to do is get out camping. Old equipment is actually a pretty fun hobby, and using it is another great hobby.

I also "inherited" a set of morse code keys when my summer camp cleaned out it's quartermaster shed. The buzzers were all shot, but the keys were fine. I am thinking about making a set of good buzzers to wire together with cheap speaker wire or doorbell wire. I am also pretty handy with a sewing machine so a set of wigwag and semaphore flags. Mabey I could even get some other folks in my troop excited about signaling. Might be fun on canoe trips or at summer camp.

Ok all, for all of the 1990's while I was in scouting the semaphore flag code and morse code were all still in the handbook. I guess they were sort of an institution in scouting for a long time. However....it seems that hardly anybody in scouting teaches morse code, hand signals, or semaphore any more. I understand that cell phones and 2 way radios have mostly replaced flags for signaling, but when did they? I remember talking to an old scouter who said he never got his first class because when he was a youth there was a signaling requirement for first class, and his scoutmaster made everybody do the morse code part of it, the semaphor part being too "easy". So I guess my question is, do any of you ever remember using morse code, wigwag, hand signals, or Semaphore code while you were scouts (or scouters)? Is it just some romantic notion I have that they were important or were they something that seemed useful but sort of flopped after a while?