willysjeep

Sorry about the typos guys, I'm on really slow dialup so it has to be a pretty big mistake for me to go back and edit it.

I guess it is all right there in black and white. I think my troop had a stack of really old PB cards laying around with the old requirements on them still. This could have led to a lot of confusion. Glad to hear the award is still around.

Thanks for all of the responses.

Hi everyone,

There has been a rumor floating around that I would like to confirm or dispell. I just got back in to my troop after graduating from college. There are rumors going around that the Paul Bunyan woodsman award has been dropped. The rumor goes that felling trees is now prohibited for youth, making the award impossible to get. Any truth to this? Is this going around elsewhere?

I've got some more historic gear questions for those of you who might know.

I just saw an OD green army pup tent half on eBay, but instead of having army numerals it had THE CUB SCOUT stenciled on the end flap. I'm thinking that some contractor decided to market an overrun of government tents directly to civillians.

I've read on the web where people remember using army style shelter halfs in scouting. I was wondering if there really was an official scout shelter half, or if a lot of troops didn't just use army surplus ones because they were inexpensive. I've seen old posters from the 60's showing all of the scout tents, and I don't remember seeing the shelter half.

As a discussion starter, what types of official tents do any of you remember camping in?

It all depends on the situation I guess.

On a hike where we might only have a patrol's worth of scouts and adults combined we probably cook together and share duties.

At summer camp when we have two patrols of youth and four or five adults, the adults eat with the patrols on a rotation.

If we have too many adults to just place them in youth patrols we might make an adult mess patrol. When we place adults in youth patrols for meals at summer camp for some reason it is tradition that adults don't do any dishes or cooking. On a smaller campout with a higher percentage of adults to youth that would be unfair to the youth, so the adults eat together.

The adults usually eat together on camp-o-rees, or when we want to instill some competition in the youth so they raise the bar on their cooking and meal planning.

My troop uses kids size steel spades we found at an old hardware store. The shovel blade is about 1/3 the size of a standard pointed shovel. The ones we have came with 24" wooden handels with a D grip. I think you can still get similar small shovels at most lawn and garden stores.

I also use an old entrenching tool occasionally. I bought a german surplus one for like $5. It is heavy though, but nice for moving coals in a permanent camp.

Less expensive nylon tents with only a single layer are usually waterproofed. The double layer(tent+fly) design on modern tents is supposed to allow moisture in the tent out. I find that if I don't leave the front door somewhat open on my one man single layer backpacker I will get condensation all over the foot of my bag even on a dry night. Of course, I camp in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan where the nights are usually cool. I think that ventilation is an often overlooked issue with modern tents that often don't breathe that well.

I always find it funny that the BSA endorsed sheath knives for a while. You could get a 4.5 inch Marbles Woodcraft with an official BSA logo on the blade and sheath. Now they are trying very hard, I think, to look politically correct.

I think this zero tolerance idea is supported by the lack of sheath knife safety in totin' chip any more. I figure that scouting should prepare you for life. Even if you don't need a sheath knife for scouting, you might need one later, and I think it would do everybody some good to learn how to safely use one. It would also help to dispell the idea of a nation wide zero tolerance policy. That's my personal dream, but I know changing the status quo is difficult, so I don't make too big of a deal about it.

I can't take all the credit for that. It was my first year as assistant, so a lot of those ideas came down from the vetran director. We sure did a lot of stuff in six weeks, and I think we couldn't have without all of the experience he has.

Good luck to you!

According to what the inspectors said when they completed the inspection of Camp Hiawatha, they didn't find any infractions at all. Camp Hiawatha is in Chatham, close to Munising Michigan in the U.P. I don't know how the other BSA camps rated.

I was just assistant director at Camp Hiawatha last year.

One big thing we did was to find ways to involve everybody. We had a parent sugjest that we "get the bear cubs in the water and looking for bugs". Needless to say, this would definately NOT be popular with very many uniform-washing cub moms. What we did was to get a big plastic kiddy pool and fill it with muck and water from the bog. They could get elbow deep in the muck and have a good time looking for water insects, but they couldn't really get too muddy. It also meant we didn't have to worry about lifeguards or buddy tags. We still had adult supervisors, but that was mostly to keep the pools from getting broken.

Sometimes scouts expect to be spoon fed when they are not familiar with a subject. I had a list of possible experiment ideas for the Energy merit badge, but I didn't give the proceedures. If somebody was stuck on how to demonstrate something they could see a few examples. They then had to come up with the proceedures and demonstrate to me the idea they were trying to communicate. Not exactly spoon feeding, but enough of a prompt to get them thinking.

We had a few nature trails that crisscrossed the camp. Unfortunately the land owner next to us had a part of his property clear cut. He had given us permission, and we had built a nature trail across the corner many years ago. We spent most of the summer sending crews down this trail and hauling out short lengths of brush to make the trail visible again.

We had rubber knee boots available for people to wear in our beaver pond. We also had many hand nets available for catching things. We had about 6 aquariums donated by various people. We had no electricity, so we couldn't keep fish for very long in the summer heat. We did keep turtles and frogs for a day or two, and garter snakes were pretty common too. The big trick is to release the animals before they get too stressed. We also had to make some collecting rules so that we didn't get fragile reptiles or mammals in. Still, many scouts had a ball chasing frogs through the mud when they had nothing else to do.

We also had jars of alcohol to embalm any dead specimines we got in. It was just gross enough to be totally fascinating to younger scouts. We wouldn't keep mangled or decayed samples. There are very few opportunities for scouts to see a real finch or robbin or giant beetle up close. This was just a way to preserve them in sealed jars for others to see later on. Creepy, but interesting.

That's pretty much the boat i'm in right now. I was registered from 18 to 19 as a troop comittee member, and then from 19 to 20 as an ASM, so I guess it was OK for me to be more than just an ASM.

I do have an easier time to associate with the current batch of youth because I was just recently their SPL. Unfortunately there is also a temptation to over step my bounds as an adult sometimes. I catch myself though, and remember how it was being lead by the nose by an adult. Actually, I want to remind the other adults in my troop of that some times, and tell them to back off. It is truely an interesting position to be in. I'm sort of the in between man for the youth and older adults because they are more comfortable around me I think.

Camp Hiawatha staff patrol names: 2004

The One- no yell- cardoard "1" as patrol flag

Badger- badger badger.....mushroom- red totem badger flag

Sausage- "SAUSAGE" said with a lisp- white flag with real BBQ fork stuck in magic marker sausage drawing

Chef Bryan's Fan Club- Thank You! - cooking apron with Chef Bryan's Fan CLub drawn on, given to staff cook when he left camp

Fog Horn- PL had an air horn for patrol yell- flag had "Fog Horn" in magic marker.

We also had a cub pack who called themselves the "raging retards" patrol, and many less out there boy scout patrol names

Just three years ago I got both emergency preparedness and lifesaving not because I needed them both, but because I saw them as both being skills that would be useful. I allways see the activities of scouting as having a twofold purpose. Not only are they a uesful skill in their own right, but they help to support the overall goal of the scouting program. Like being prepared to help.

Lifesaving barely scratches the surface of what lifeguarding entails. BSA lifeguard is much more in depth, and is much more demanding. Lifesaving is so whoever has the badge is prepared to assist with unexpected emergencies around the water. To be truely competent as a lifeguard where you can expect to use lifesaving skills the lifesaving merit badge falls a little short. It is never the less an important skill, not just an "introduction to" merit badge like some are, and I feel that if somebody is capable of taking it they probably should.

There are a lot of badges that are eagle required that some people think are pointless, or too hard to get. Physical fitness catches a lot of people, and so does Environmental Science. These aren't things that a boy is likely to make a career out of later on, but they are both skills that everybody should probably be exposed to at some point.

The campaign hat of the BSA and that of the army from the 1900's to 20's are identical. In fact, they were produced at the same factory and originally came with no pin at all. Once you earned your first class pin you could put it on your hat. The hatband and sweatband are more modern additions. Nobody has actually taken the time to make the two diferent, so the military contractor that now makes them and the BSA contractor are essentially making hats to the exact same specifications.

For mackinac island service camp one year my patrol was "D patrol" until we changed our name to "delta force patrol". Our patrol leader got us all big square delta force patches which we put elastic arm bands on. We looked like dorks probably but it was a memorable fun time.

It's sort of a hard call I guess. I mean, you are a boyscout, not a soldier, but then again, it is a youth run organization more than anything else.

I just found a site with repro canvas 1912 army uniforms for sale. They wany $150 for the coat and breeches as a set. All I would need to do is replace the army buttons with a set of BSA buttons off of e-bay and I would be all set. $150 seems like a lot to spend on a hobby at this point for me, but I am considering it. After all, it would be about an almost exact copy, and I wouldn't have to worry about things like the seams coming apart in the wash, which happens to my homemade stuff occasionally. Mabey....mabey...

Until then, I get to wear my current "old fashioned" kneesocks and campaign hat and dream of getting more of this cool old stuff.

http://www.aefsupply.com/uniforms.htm

EDIT: Wow, mabey I don't need to spend that much! I just found the perfect thing to base a BSA 5 button coat off of. I just dug up my old marching band coat from highschool and lo and behold it appears to be based on the 1912 army coat. It has all of the seams in the same places and the same basic style. So, now I have a rough pattern to try to make a coat from! I'll get back to you in about a year and tell you how it turns out. Ha ha!(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

Actually, mine are of canvas ducking, not wool, but they are still a lot better than the current BSA pants for durability. I want to eventually make both a 5 button stand up collar coat and mabey the later style four button open collar canvas coat too. I really like the idea of a heavy wind resistant and brush resistant canvas coat and pants for the type of scouting I do.

As I understand it the very first BSA uniforms were modeled after BP's design, with the shorts and bush shirt, but they weren't popular at first so the BSA went immediately to a copy of the official army uniform circa 1910, because one of the first national leaders owned a uniform manufacturing company.The shirts I believe were the army style half-button shirt. Once the "army look" phase was over the BSA toned it down with a full button front shirt again and open coat and made neckerchiefs standard. The nice thing is that there are so many WW1 uniforms around that I can easily do research for a uniform that would fit in to about 1930. After that, I would really need to see an example of the open collar coat to make a convincing copy. Old uniforms are just so cool. I want to eventually have one that would fit in from each era. the classic BP uniform, the doughboy, the revised 1920's, the 1950's and 60's......after that I'm not so impressed.

My big thing is that once you have a lable or a syndrome for somebody it becomes much more difficult for that person to be treated normally. "Ok, Billy here has ADHD, so you have to treat him like everybody else and respect his medical condition" Kids hear "ADHD" and know there is something diferent about this kid and will never treat him the same. When it is said that Billy is a little high strung and has a short attention span, it doesn't lable Billy as having something wrong, just how he is.

I remember. I was "diagnosed" with ADHD when I was 7 and was medicated until 7th grade. When people get to know you before they hear ADHD it is a lot easier to make friends than when somebody explains off how you act by saying "Oh, so and so has ADHD, he's like that all the time".

Actually, once I was off medication, I did calm down a lot. I think the fact that it was such a big deal to my teachers gave me a stigma that was hard to shake. I also think that once I was no longer "sick" with ADHD and not being drugged that I felt a lot better about myself. It was a lot easier to make friends in highschool once I was no longer "the ADHD kid".

What I would probably do in your shoes is talk to the parents, mabey talk to the SPL and vent my ideas to him, and then let the PLC decide if there is anything they can do to improve the situation without making it worse. The parent camping sounds like a good idea, so mabey dropping a sugjestion or two would be appropriate.

Asking somebody to leave would definantly be a last resort measure for me. What I have seen in my scout troop is that we do get quite a few new scouts who just plain don't like the program and end up quitting long before we would ask them to leave. I'm not saying that anybody who doesn't fit in should leave. What I am saying is that even as an ADHD kid I had no trouble paying attention to something that I found interesting. If I didn't find it interesting then I would be off in la-la land and probably would not stick with it if there were a way out.

If you don't mind going into the territory of somebody wetting their pants in fear, this skit be a good'en for pirate themes.

Captain Red Coat. Scene 1:

Props: a red coat (woolrich jac-shirt works), a "cannon" and appropriate pirate clothing. A spy glass for the first mate is optional.

Scene: a ship's deck. The captain and his first mate are standing on deck. The "gunners" are standing next to the first mate by their cannons.

First mate: "Captain, Captain! I see the ship "Man O' War" on the horizon. She's got 21 cannons and she's going to attack us! What should we do!"

Captain: "Bring me my red coat! Man the cannons!

first mate gives captain coat to put on

A battle ensues,the gunners fire the cannons, and the captain is victorious .

captain hands coat back to first mate

First Mate: Captain, I see the ship "Sea Witch" on the horizon, she's got 50 canons and it looks like she's going to attack us! What should we do?"

Captain: "Bring me my red coat and ready the cannons!

first mate gives captain coat to put on.

Another battle ensues and the Captain Red Coat wins again

captain hands coat back to first mate

First Mate: "Captain, why is it that when ever we go into battle you wear your red coat?"

Captain: "So if I am wounded in battle the men won't see me bleeding and will keep fighting."

First Mate: "Oh No! I see the "Dreadnaught" on the horizon. SHe's got over a hundred guns and I think she's about to attack us!"

Captain:"Bring me my yellow Pants!"

Note: you don't need yellow pants, the joke works better without them. You can also say "brown pants" depending on the crowd and what would be appropriate. I know this skit is OK for boyscouts, but it would be up to you to try it on cubbies.

My troop has a few patrols which never change their names. We used to allways have Wolverine, Liberty( which the SM was in as a scout so we don't change the name), Soaring Eagle, and a new patrol which gets to choose their own name. We have had Cobra, Flaming Arrow (patrol yell: We Yell! We Yell! And when we yell we yell like this and this is what we yell! Amen! Amen! Amendiego San Diego Baby In a high-chair, who put her up there, Ma Pa sish Boom ba, Flaming Arrow Flaming Arrow Ra Ra Ra!), and a few others.

Now that our troop has shrunk we only have the new guys and Liberty patrol. Back when we only had liberty and Wolverine we would combine to form Livereen Patrol for camp outs.

For JLT I was in the Burgundy Bear Claw patrol. JLT patrol names are allways off the wall it seems. Ghost Caribou, Monkey-eyed-Mice, The Survivors (mosquito as patrol emblem),

I even know of a patrol in some troop called "sons of the revolution" which only lasted one camp out. You can guess which agricultural aind industrial implements made up their patrol emblem.

Bob, to answer your question:

I was looking for proof that sheath knives are in fact more dangerous than folding knives.

EDIT: I thought you were of the mindset that sheath knives were more dangerous and should be banned. I needed to go back and read a little more carefully to find out that I wasn't absolutely correct.

The counterpoint I was trying to make is that I don't feel sheath knives are any more dangerous. To me it isn't so much a case of coolness trumping safety, but of coolness trumping utility. I don't think it is really my right to make that kind of decision for somebody, so I really don't like the idea of a sheath knife ban.

(This message has been edited by willysjeep)

People have been saying that sheath knives are too dangerous to be allowed, right? Like when somebody said that coolness shouldn't trump safety. Could somebody tell me why you think properly constructed sheath knives in trained hands are more dangerous than properly constructed folding knives in trained hands?

The only reason I can think of why a sheath knife might be more dangerous than a folding knife is when somebody improperly wears it on the front of their body. Of course this is not the right or expected way of doing it. Just like it is not right to put an open pocket knife in your pocket. Both are equally possible, and equally dangerous. The only thing is that if you teach the proper way of carrying pocket knives and wearing knife sheaths in Totin' Chip both become equally improbable. It is possible for somebody to put an open pocket knife in their pocket but it is obviously dangerous to do so. It is also possible that somebody might wear their knife on the front of their body, but when you explain to them during totin' chip that if you do that and sit down the knife WILL stab you in the leg, I bet you wouldn't ever see that either.

You can't plan on scouts abusing everythign that is dangerous around them. If you did plan on everythign going wrong then matches, insect dope, and axes would be banned too. Just think of the mayhem that any one of these could cause if somebody decided to abuse them.

I feel that sheath knives are no more dangerous than a pocket knife when used correctly, and just as when they are used incorrectly.

While it is true that many pocket knives are more useful for camp chores than sheath knives, the same can be said about many items of camping equipment. Rarely do scouts ever have to cut up a piece of wood too large for a bowsaw, but because chopping it in half is more fun most scouts would pick up an axe for a big log. Because everybody with a totin' chip is supposed to be proficient with an axe I don't expect anybody to use one improperly.

I remember asking this same question over in issues and politics about a year ago, and I think i got pretty much the same two sides of the argument.

Ok, ok....I know that knee breehes aren't a part of the official uniform. I also know that according to the uniform police it is not OK to mix and match uniform parts.

That being said, I allways wanted a pair of knee breeches to try out. I took a pajama pants pattern and added a little bit to the outseam, and pretty much embelished them as close as I could to the example pictures I found on line. I figure for events like troop hikes and other places where 100% identical uniforms aren't required they might prove useful. I'm eventually going to make or assemble a uniform that would fit in in the 1920-1930's. Campaign hat, knee breeches, solid green knee socks and or leggings, a green older style scout shirt, and a canvas four button open collar coat. Anyways, this weekend I will have a chance to see if my knee breeches offer any advantage over modern scout pants. They may not be all that practical, but it was sure interesting researching and making them.

My troop has anywhere from two to four diferent strategies for camping. We usually have about 4 or 5 adults and anywhere from 5 to 15 scouts who regularly camp.

1) backpacking consists of all backpacks, mostly personal gear with some troop items like large cooking pots and water filters. There are allways enough scouts with tents so that everybody can buddy up and end up in a tent. We usually have passanger cars or vans to haul people and one truck at most to haul gear. Unless we have a meal planned for our starting campsite within reach of the cars we don't bring coolers or anything.Most of the hiking stoves we use are provided by troop members, but not troop owned. The troop only owns two burner coleman propane stoves.

2) Light car camping/canoeing. This equipment is again mostly personal gear but the troop may provide two burner stoves, dutch ovens, axes, saws, water jugs, complete cook kits, etc... Some extras get hauled with that might be too heavy for hiking, but we can still squeeze it all into one truck and a couple of vans.Backpacks are still often used, but not required.

3) Heavy car camping. Most district events are like this. You can unload gear from the car to the campsite for the most part. Almost anything goes. The troop provides dining fly tarps, chuck boxes, 2 burner propane stoves, propane lanterns, axes, dutch ovens, iron fire cranes. Each patrol gets a chuck box and all the fixings. We often have coolers along for fresh foods. A few adults have folding plastic picnic tables that they let patrols use. The troop really doesn't have any tents so all personal gear from the tent on down is provided and shared by individual scouts.

4) Summer Camp.

We bring our own chuck boxes with even though the summer camp provides chuck boxes too. We don't like to have to clean their dishes and we are more comfortable with our own. The summer camp has dining-fly type structures made of lumber and steel roofing so we leave our dining flys at home. The summer camp also proides wood burning sheep herder stoves, but we bring our propane stoves with too so we don't have to light a fire for every meal. Other than that, and the fact that everybody brings more junk than they probably should, it is very similar to our standard car camping.

We rarely if ever build a flag pole. If we are car caming we have flag holders to hold up our regular flag standards. Our summer camp has a flag pole in each site too. We have never had a shower, to my knowledge, in our camp site. We have also never had anything like communal tents or an equipment trailer. We do have a canoe trailer but it doesn't really hold any gear beyond paddles and PFD's. I have never seen anybody bring a cot or hammoc to anything but summer camp. We do often have scouts bring things like radios, but even during free time at summer camp or district events we have a headphones only policy. It's not too much of a problem. We have done pioneering projects, mostly small camp gadgets, and a few larger ones that were a part of a special camp-o-ree event. Mostly we see things like kitchen racks and tripods for water jugs.

(hear those chimes ringing? I'm chiming in)

Athiests, as I have only met a few in person, seem to arrive at their world view, their sense of good and bad, and their moral convictions through logical processes. I would assume that the reason some of them work on the BSA to change their rules is because they are more envolved in the BSA, and it has a more direct effect on them than say the chaplains in the army would. I would think that if they were in the army they might try to get the chaplain service changed if they thought it was wrong. It isn't a matter of who they have it in for the most, but who has the most bearing on their lives and the development of their kids. If you wanted to have a law passed, you might start with the city conucil, before you try to change the stance of the government of Trinidad.

As to the logic behind athiesim, I can understand it pretty well. Many morals, mores, folkways, what ever you call them, can easily be arrived at without divine intervention. Example: cannibalisim is bad. If we could just up and kill and eat each other when we felt hungry we would all have to live in constant fear of each other and probably wouldn't interact with each other at all. Sociotey would not progress, we would not even reproduce. Therefore, if cannibalisim were good sociotey would self destruct. Pretty logical, huh?

Now as to religion: I think I am a Methodist, and the Methodist concept appeals to me. John Wesley got sick and tired of the unfulfilling and strict ceremony and order of the CHurch of England. He developed a philosophy that was less dependant on mindless ceremony and more dependant on self exploration and study. Basically I am a methodist because I have decided that we are about as close to "getting it right" as any other religion. I see athiests as taking the same information I have and arriving at a diferent solution. Untill we all die there is no way for sure to check the answer thoug.

I have my reasons and I am sure everybody else has theirs. I don't know for sure if they are wrong, but I have a good idea that I am right. I do not think it is my right or my place to tell other people that they are wrong though, because I am pretty sure they dont have exactly the same information and experiences as I have. Live and let live.

After a talk with some fellow scouts and scouters who are pretty aware of what goes on I have come to a conclusion. Anything I could do has a positive and a negative. If I talk to him htings could get worse. If I ignore him I will still feel not at ease about all of this. I think I will see what happens next time we end up working with each other. If we can get along without hostilities then I guess I was over reacting. If things start getting bad I might try to talk it out with him. Either put everything behind us and start anew or just agree to give each other more slack for the benifit of everybody around us.