watercub

My former Pack started holding the Arrow of Light ceremony and Crossover at the same time (Blue and Gold; end of February) for various reasons that served Troops and our Pack well. First, in our Pack, the Webelos 2 dens had pretty much completed their program by January. After a boy completed all of the Arrow of Light requirements, we encouraged them to join the Troop of their choosing immediately. Momentum is important to retaining boys in the Scouting program. When our crossover was in March, we lost boys between the Blue and Gold and the "crossover ceremony" because they were bored with Webelos and Scouting just faded out of the picture as Spring sports took hold.

Second - a lot of Pack activity dropped off after B&G. Frequently, not many younger Cub and Webelos Scouts showed up at Crossover, so they never witnessed that rite of passage. That's a lost marketing opportunity to promote continuing in Scouting. That was important to the five Troops in our community, so they didn't mind receiving Scouts from our Pack a month or two early.

Third - even though we are in a CO that has both a Pack and a Troop, it's not uncommon for Webelos to head to other Troops. We encourage shopping around - that encourages continued involvement. By the time a Scout gets to fifth grade, they have developed friendships with boys who are in other troops. Our most recent crossover featured Webelos going to three different Troops in our community - all participated in the Crossover ceremony. My Troop is participating in four different ceremonies this year.

Finally, and this is self-serving to the receiving Troop, Summer Camp MB scheduling typically takes place at the end of March and classes close out. Scouts that arrive at the end of March typically have their classes (camp experience) selected for them without their input. They have had a better camp experience when they have been around long enough to be assisted by the Troop Guides in picking a fulfilling merit badge and activity schedule.

That's our take - no one way is better than another. However, if you don't get a lot of attendance at a crossover ceremony, then that is a missed opportunity to market Boy Scouting to Cub Scouts. They also begin to make that mental connection between the AoL award and joining a Troop.

Because of the multiple Troops in our community (5) participating in six different Pack crossovers, it's wiser to let the pack own the Crossover. That's just true in our community - it may not hold in yours. We are just blessed with a ton of Units.

Good question.

Interesting responses.

My boys are 5 years apart - 14 and 9. My oldest is a Star Scout who was asked by our SM to assist me (parent, ASM and W1 DL) with running our Webelos 1 patrol. Note that I didn't say "den." His charge is to assist me and my two reluctant co-leaders in forming a pretty close group of 4th graders into a "patrol." So he works the patrol method in and we'll take it from there when he finishes the 6 months. He's made some headway since July 1.

One of the co-leaders monitors and reports on his performance to the SM. We get responsible, experienced assistance from a Scout who can teach the boys some things they need to know and helps our Activity Badge teachers. He usually attends all meetings.

He is a counselor at a summer Webelos Adventure Camp in a neighboring Council. He's pretty qualified to provide service to the younger boys, who know him and respect him. These are all the things you need in a Den Chief and it really can't be trained in at a all-day training.

I have advised our Troop and Pack leadership caution in selecting and assigning a Den Chief in years past. If it is not well-done, the Pack is disappointed, the Den Leaders are also and the Troop gets nothing out of it. It's a great POR in theory, but if the Scout fails there could be repercussions outside of the Troop - they represent all of the Scouts to the boys in the Webelos Dens. They have to be a certain quality to be able to relate to 9 and 10 year-olds and be available for meetings. If they aren't doing it, it hurts the "pipeline."

So, there isn't really anything wrong with being M or D, ASM and a DL (was older son's CM as well...) when it comes to being the DC in little bro's Den, when accountability is assigned outside of the family.

All he has to do is give the Webelos is the six month kick-start. That will get him to Life. No two year assignment, since that would wear him out.

That's a different take on DC management. As usual in Scouting, there are numerous means to the end, and this just happens to be one that works for us. As for the next DC? I haven't seen another Scout in the current Troop membership that demonstrates enough tolerance and flexibility for that. It might be awhile.

Hey, that's a topic that's dear to my heart, too. I'm the ASM for New Scouts in my troop and part of that role is to serve as the mentor for the TG's and the Instructors.

BTW, it's easy to get TG's. I usually use former PL's and SPL's that need their POR for Eagle. ;-)

It's also a coincidence that I'm sitting in our annual PLC planning session (right now) and this came up. Here's what I do:

(1) TG's participate in the NSP's patrol meeting. They are part of the Leadership Corps, right there with the SPL and ASPL's. They are NYLT trained.

(2) They have to pass my evaluation that I report to the Scoutmaster - they need to be approved for time spent in the position. Just like at work, I give them a job description and performance standards. I use multiple TG's for one patrol to insure that at least one of them is at a meeting. They have to coordinate amongst each other to make sure it's covered or notify me.

(3) They are mentors and teachers for the New Scouts, and they have told me they have received a tremendous amount of satisfaction from helping the new Scouts advance.

I have been very impressed with all of my TG's and all of them are now Eagle Scouts. I'd like to think that was my contribution to their journey, in that being a TG was like the Eagle Service Project, just that it was the giveback to their Troop.

It's pretty simple. Just make sure that an ASM is there to mentor them. BTW, I thoroughly recommend liberal use of the Instructor position. It does a lot for retention and leadership, and the younger boys look up to that Scout also. They are to be ready to assist Scouts with their one-on-one Scoutcraft skill instruction. It reinforces what may have gone rusty. I like to use our Double H survivors for that.

I'm having difficulty digging out my position descriptions, but if you send a personal message, I'll try to get it to you.

Good thread. Hope more jump in.

I'm just as curious too, however, at a more detailed level. You see, our District Activities/Service Chair asked me to direct the next Webelos Woods in our District. There was no WW last year, so the institutional memory is gone. If any of you know details about the planning/staffing/financing, etc., of a Webelos Woods, Webelos-Ree, what-have-you, I would appreciate your input. Send me a PM if you want to send me planning outlines. I'm going to get lots of help, and definitely from the Boy Scout side.

YiS,

watercub

I used to be a Bear...

92-50

I concur with all of the above, and it's what we use. I use two TG's - it ensures we have one at every meeting. Man, I agree with Beavers? Not too bad for this sluggish Bear.

I'm about to use the new and old materials to do a JLT/TLT/whatever in March. I won't forget the pizza. I was going to take a similar approach to EagleInKY in that me and the SPL were going to blend in elements of Wood Badge, NYLT and the JLT book. I found TLT shockingly light.

Getting the leaders to have a vision of what can be and guiding them towards that vision is becoming a Scouter emphasis again in our Troop. This Troop Leader Training seems to be taken much more seriously than in the past. In the past, it was "we need to do this thing so we can get leaders to Green Bar..."

Brent,

Congratulations, and excellent choice! I'll be doing the same since my ticket is Troop-based. When my fellow Bear and I returned from the two weekends, there was a COH later in the month, and three of us working our tickets were recognized by the Scoutmaster. It's a big deal in our Troop.

Robert Burns, a/k/a the watercub, and a good old Bear, too.

T477 & P477 - Hightower Trail District

AAC 92-50

I appreciate all of the positive feedback I have received. There were lots of great ideas to take to the next PLC meeting. The PLC found it very unique when I asked them for their help, so as a newer ASM I realized there had to be a heavier adult presence in the past few years.

I would love nothing more than for the boys to completely run the Troop. We're not back there yet.

Happy holidays!

I am an ASM in our Troop and I'm working with our training chairman to update the Troop JLT to a much more relevant leadership experience and teambuilding exercise. I'm guessing that somebody has already done something like this, so I'll sketch out what I have in mind and see what you think.

* The seminar is held twice a year, when the new leadership is appointed or elected.

* Because it's not training, you can't "take it" once and never again.

* One of the goals is to have activities that encourage the Troop leaders to act as a team. I've never seen NYLT, but I was in Wood Badge, and it was quite effective.

* It should be in the outdoors and it should be fun.

* It should be scheduled by the SPL and facilitated by the SM.

* One of these events can coincide with the annual PLC planning retreat.

I don't intend to throw away the JLT syllabus - I want to use the best parts and create new experiences with the extra time. The videotape? Well....

I always value the feedback from the forum's members and anything you give me will help me shape the proposal.

We just had our Troop/Webelos campout. The Webelos had plenty of camping experience, so it was no trouble setting them up as a patrol. The parents that came along enjoyed the Troop camping. I'll have to admit, it was one of the better Troop (Scouts and Leaders) turnouts at an outing. We were also blessed with the participation of some of our senior scouts, including the SPL, ASPL and two PL's.

The reason it was an attractive outing was that it was a shooting sports outing. My lesson learned is to find something to do that is enjoyable for the Scouts and the Webelos, and includes all of them. The Webelos couldn't shoot, so we had alternative activities near the gun range so the Scouts could come out and join them in shifts. Still, it wasn't the same.

I hope this gets some feedback. Last year when we went to camp, the boys had absolutely nothing to do with the planning for their week at camp. The worst part was how they spent some of their down time. I, the SM and a few other ASMs are working on getting the boys to start leading their troop again. I was asked to run all of the logistics for this years' camp, and another of the ASMs will be the SM for camp.

I get to be the "planner" and that was one of my ticket goals. Do any of you have experience with having the PLC designate a few Scouts (who are going) to help with the planning of their week? I'm referring to the common activities, like teambuilding, patrol cooking, pioneering, etc. Those things were noticeably absent from camp last year. I think it hurt us in developing leadership and teamwork in the younger Scouts. I liked the scout spirit award I saw in another thread as a measure of a Scout's success at camp. Camp will be in late June, and this planning will probably be a full-Scouter-time pursuit up to that point.

I agree with the early crossover concept. I think that this year, the Pack's WDLs will go along.

(1) The Pinewood Derby is in January

(2) The B&G is first weekend of March, so they are done then.

The CM has always scheduled Crossover for late March, and the boys had qualified for their AOL in January. My son (different pack) went over in February and had a big hand in scheduling his Summer Camp schedule (important with our camp!) The other boys, restless and bored, had their schedules planned for them because online scheduling opened on 4/1 - their first Troop Meeting was a week later. Also, for six of the seven that went, it was their first Boy Scout camping experience. Some did well, others didn't.

Hopefully, the boys will start attending meetings after they are done with AOL, we'll get their new scout patrol going, then they can have their ceremony at the end of the month. We won't tell!

Happy holidays, everyone!

I like the "Big Book of Games" on macscouter.com and boyscouttrail.com. I use it in both the Cub Scout and Boy Scout program. For Cubs, I stay away from anything that can break out in open warfare - ball games are popular, as is our annual Oreo Stacking Contest. Good luck!

I was wondering if anybody knew of a database tool, even a crude one, that was used to inventory patrol and troop equipment and even track checkouts and usage. I figured somebody had to develop that....

If anybody knows, either post it or send a PM. Thanks!

Our Troop is a regular at Woodruff S.R. in North Georgia, and yes, I saw troops from LA during our week. Great camp, great staff, good facilities. I thoroughly recommend it, but only the July weeks are open now. It's very popular.

I know a Scoutmaster in Mandeville, LA, whose troop has gone to Camp Comer in northeast Alabama twice. I believe they plan on going to Skymont SR in Summer 2006. Skymont is on the Cumberland Plateau in Tennessee and has an excellent rock climbing program. I hear great things about both Skymont and Comer in the high adventure department.

I'd also advise that you check Camp Rainey Mountain (NE Georgia Council.) That's always my second choice.

We Bears are a curious lot, aren't we?

One of my goals involved junior leadership development, and I had noticed the absence of diversity awareness/leveraging diversity in our Troop's junior leader training syllabus.

I took advantage of some of the diversity exercises we did on Day 4 that I can use in the Troop's program.

Thanks for your interest - I'll let you know how it goes. It's an ambitious ticket that will take 16-18 months to see some outcomes related to the output.

YiS,

watercub, a good old Bear too...

All:

Thank you for your input - with your input here and some personal messages, I was able to craft an acceptable goal.

YiS,

The watercub

A good old Bear...

Jane,

That's great to hear. It was a real positive experience for me. I'd like to experience my District's training program too, so I suppose I'll have to volunteer for SLT staff...

Robert

I used to be a Bear...

SR-713

Geez, you guys need to settle down. I'm in Atlanta Area Council, and I'm a Unit Commissioner in Hightower Trail District. Incidentally, I'm also the Commissioner for Brent's unit. I've been following this and connected threads for quite a while.

As a Commissioner, I've had the opportunity to recharter numerous units in this district. Guess what? Ghost units are everywhere, and not just confined to AAC's "Operation First Class." They are minority units, majority units, Packs, Troops and Crews. It is a huge undertaking for the "volunteer" Commissioner Staff in an urban district like Hightower Trail and fully research the existence of what may turn out to be a paper unit. It's also a huge challenge for people I know to be good DE's under a faulty compensation program. I know our DE's were working to purge the paper units well before this story got regional and national attention.

Is there a story here in Atlanta? Sure. It's also a story in every urban area served by Scouting. Birmingham, Dallas, where else?

We are not doing anybody any good by bashing BSA National or individual councils. Focus on the mission - which is carried out by volunteers with the support of their Council. By the way, Atlanta Area is one of the nation's larger Councils that does a good job serving large numbers of youth in a heavily populated 13-county area in Metro Atlanta. Are volunteers upset? Yes. Have they gotten over it? I'm not sure, but we all seem to be getting on with the job of delivering the program. Frankly, if I have a summer camp to go to, and district and council activities to work into my program, the council is doing its job to support me.

Nice try, Brent, but they aren't going to listen. People so deeply wedded to their positions tend to avoid listening to another point of view. Outrage isn't healthy for anybody when it is sustained. Translate it into action - then you'll get my attention. By the way, don't accuse me of having my head in the sand - my eyes are wide open.

Have a nice day, y'all.

In my WB course, they spent a very short time on the role of diversity in at least one goal on the ticket. I don't think they meant to do that, but because of that, I'm struggling a bit when it comes to specifically addressing diversity as part of at least one goal. I was wondering if there were any examples of how one did this and related it to their vision. Even though my vision statement is different from others, it helps to see examples.

We started the ceremonial arrow thing last year. Parents paid for them and we kept them as a surprise (being the first time...) The Web II's thought it was cool, but the payoff is that the younger Scouts WANT THE ARROW! So, we'll see if this boosts the number of boys earning AOL and (cross fingers) crossing over.

We got the arrows off of the 'Net and were very pleased with the product.

Wow, some really strong feelings on this thread.

We have a 14-year old boy with Asperger's Syndrome (high-functioning autisim) in our New Scout Patrol. I think it's ok to bring this up in a Cub forum because a long time ago, he was in the Pack where I was a CM.

At times, the boy can have some pretty tough behavioral problems and some social difficulties. Our CC and SM met with his parents and asked a couple of questions like, please describe his condition and how can we best serve him? His parents have been very good about volunteering on the Troop Committee and being at outdoor activities like Summer Camp.

We are fortunate that some of our senior Scouts have taken an interest in him and make sure he is included in the troop activities. They channel his energy towards activities where he can exhibit good behavior. So for us, things seem to be working out.

One thing I had to do was counsel the 11- and 12-year old Scouts about his condition and promote a little understanding. Even though they are still intolerant of his behavior at times, they are much more understanding.

If the behavior tends towards violence, that's unacceptable and we can't ask any volunteer or Scout to "deal with it."

To keep this short, I would recommend you reading threads on the "Scouts with Disabilities" forum - that's where I learned about Scouts with autism.

Hope this was helpful - I know how frustrating that can be.

At our Troop, they stay in their patrol. Realistically, they spend all of their patrol meeting time with the NSP. At another Troop that I serve as a Commissioner, the TG is a member of the Leadership Corps, which is the SPL, ASPLs and Troop Guides.

I like to tie SM's to the Scout Law and take less than 15 seconds. This one goes with Reverent, and is pertinent to the events of July 2005.

"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another."

- Jonathan Swift

I was at summer camp three weeks ago, same thing. Our Scouts were asking "what will be done?" about those Scouts, and the answer is that we must never conduct ourselves that way. Sometimes it takes other's bad example to teach the right path to take... I wish there was a better answer, but it is up to each unit to enforce the standards of appropriate behavior.