Bob White

My apologies to all for having this interruption in the thread. Ed, You keep using the term patrols (plural when you website only shows a ptrol (singular). All I have done is ask which is accurate. You could resolve this with an answer. Althoug I now believe the answer has become apparent to all. Like you, Back Packer says one thing in his posts but when you look at the facts, in this case easily reviewable posts, they are far from what he said they were. I am inviting everyone to do the same. Compare what I say with what the BSA says and see if there is a difference. But get some facts don't just spout your dislike for me because the program doesn't match what you do. This thread is about changing the program and having it work better. so far what we have had posted is a case where the unit changed back to be closer to the program and seeing improvement. That's to be expected, the program works. But you have to use it. Your troop size is directly related to this topic. You have often supported "tweaking" and have told what you do differently in your troop. Well what were the results. Growth ? Retention? Exodus? Ed, if you have trouble reading my posts then don't read them. I am by no means the only one who has typos, yet you seem fixated on attacking me rather than discuss the topic. You complained when I ignored your posts, so I have tried to give you another channce and you constantly show why I blocked your posts to begin with. Now please discuss the topic at hand, and it isn't me.

This is a decades old discussion just with newer leaders involved in it. There have always been aother choices. There will always be other choices. It's Me, you signed you kids up for soccer too right? Why? What did you hope they would get from it? Whatever your resons don't that have to be there in order to get those benefits? Just because you chose the campout does not make it the right choice for each family. You cannot evr turn back time. Wishing that boys had fewr choices will not make it happen. Competion for attendence ahs always existed and the number of activities contines to increase and there is no signs of it stopping. You have three choices. 1-accept it 2-complain about it 3-compete for their attention 1 is the easiest 2 is the most common 3 is the most rewarding I think the scouting program is developed to successfully compete with any other activity, but as Bill Hillcourt always pointed out... "you have to be the Best Show In Town". Each leader must make their own choice.

Oh for Pete's sake Eagledad I quoted your own post. What part of your quote did you not say. Did you not say that you used to meet once a month for nearly two hours and that the last 45-minutes was a waste of time? Did you not say that you now meet weekly for about 20 minutes before each troop meeting, and then have a shorter monthly meeting? Well that's almost exactly what the BSA teaches, only they instruct you to meet after the meeting and for good reason. You saw an improvement, the BSA said all along it was the better way to do things. The further from the BSA method you were, the more problems you had. The closer to the BSA method you got, the better it worked. The big difference, you thought you were changing FROM the BSA program when in fact you were changing TO the BSA program. Now what part of that did I get wrong? These personal attacks rather than argue the points of the discussion are silly. Argue my points if you wish but come prepared with more than "oh yeah well your wrong." If the program says something other than what I am sharing, prove it. You said you are a trainer, look at the SM training syllabus and video and see if I have misrepresented one thing. If you prove otherwise I will be the first to admit it.

Who have I taken a pot shot at Ed? Give one specifc example. Just as a reminder, you are the one sending me the insulting PMs not the other way around. As far as what I have changed, as a unit leader, nothing. As a unit leader that is not my role in scouting. As a trainer, nothing. As a trainer I have a responsibility to teach the BSA program not a version of one. The changes I have been involed in were at the invitaion of the BSA National office as part of a large team of other volunteers. Thats how changes happen. They are developed, tested and then released on a national scope with supporting resources and training so that ALL units have the same program to follow and not different versions in every unit. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree the knot on the actual Eagle award looks to be an overhand on a bite. But you need to look at the actual 1st Class Award, not a drawing. It looks different.

Beaver, if you look again at my posts you will see that I am not saying that Barry is doing a bad thing. Quite the opposite, I am saying he is doing better than he was before. Something Barry admits to as well. The difference in our posts is that Barry thinks he has changed from the scouting program and I am saying that what he did was change closer to the scouting program and that is why it is working better. Where we are divided is that Barry didn't realize that what the troop was doing originally wasn't the program, and he didn't realize athat what they are doing now is closer, and that as a trainer it would be nice if he had known the difference. Back Packer, I am not the topic of this thread, the scouting program is. Why do you choose to attack me personally rather than discuss the elements of the topic. Nearly half your posts discuss me now. This forum is about scouting, a far more interesting topic, but your posts on scouting are few. If you think I am not accurate in my information, prove it. Find the source material and present it. I am not making this stuff up, I give the BSA resource on all these topics. Why do you check them out and give a counter argument? just attacking me does not give you credibility as a scout leader. BW

Sorry Back Packer, I don't believe you for a minute. I already exposed your difficulty with the truth in the other thread but I'll bet you did not share those did you? Besides, the thread you refer to did not discuss any rules. It discussed methods, which if you were a trained scouter, you would know are completely different. As far as when to give up if you read the posts you will see I was responding to questions that posters asked of me directly. if I had not responded I am sure you or others would have found reason to criticize me for that as well. Ed, you have never allowed relevance to keep you from posting in the past. So how many patrols are there in your troop today? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, How many patrols are there in your troop today?

Ed wrote "Well, I guess the guys in my Troop aren't Scouting then!" and "Bob, I always want your opinion!" Fine, but just remember you asked... I think your troop got bored and quit. I think your PATROL is doing the very best job they can with what they have been lead to believe is a Scouting program, and that had the Scouting program actual been followed these past few years you would not be down to just one patrol.

"Hey, hey, hey Bob, your above statement is an assumption your mind alone created and is totally inaccurate." Not at all Barry. Here is what you originally posted. "One program change we made that really boosted our boy run program was going from monthly PLC meetings to weekly. After three years of monthly meetings, the youth leaders just werent growing as much as we thought were capable. The SPLs never seem to gain complete control of the meeting, both in format and controlling the group and they didnt seem to build much more confidence from one meeting to the next. Our monthly meetings always went about two hours long with the last 45 minutes not being very productive. Well Barry, having only one PLC Meeting a month for two hours with 45-minutes of wasted time is not and has not ever been a part of the troop program or of the BSA Scout leader training. "You think about it, four weeks is a long time for a SPL to wait for report. He can do it by phone, but it just wasnt working very well. And everyone (youth and adults) felt it just wasnt fun. Im a big believer in that if it is not fun, change it." Your right and that's why that is not the way the BSA trains you to operate the troop. "So we came up with an idea of a 30 minute PLC meeting each week before the troop meeting." Actually you could have saved a lot of time and energy surveying and plotting simply by following the scouting program and meeting weekly with the PLC after the meeting as prescribed in the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Scoutmaster Training. The BSA had weekly PLCs in the program long before you did, you just didn't know it or use it. "The program matured faster from this one change than anything change I look back on. Honestly I cringe for troops that still have one meeting a month." It's amazing how well things work the closer you get to following the program. Think of the progress that could have been made years earlier if they had started following the program sooner. You did not change the program Barry! You changed to following the program closer and it worked! It would have been nice, especially since you train other leaders, if you had known that weekly PLCs were already a part of the program. It's in the training videos in the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training as well as other resources. So you see, based on your comments and the BSA program, my evaluation was on the money. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Well, I guess the guys in my Troop aren't Scouting then! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10" Are you asking for my opinion?

Which if any recognition he is eligiblke for is determine by other people. The best thing for you to do is to write a detailed narraration of the event and submit it to your District Executive, he/she will begin the review process.

"Well, I guess the guys in my Troop are Scouting then!" Was this a typo?

I don't know who did those drawings on the web, but take a look at the images in the Boy Scout Handbook they are not the same.

"This "mandatory training" thing has got to be a nation-wide thing." It's not. As part of a past thread on this Topic I e-mailed Joe Glasscock who is responsible for Boy Scout Training at the National Office. I shared his response with this forum, and this action is not recommended or supported by the national office. No one is suggesting that training take place two or three times a week. But enough times to accomplish the goal of the training committee. The problem is in understanding that goal. As explained in the first pages of the Council Training Committee Guide, the goal of training is not to see how many leaders you can get to attend but to have quality training take place and to give leaders the opportunity to become trained within a short time of joining the program. There are lots of ways to do that other than offering training several times a week.

"Pardon my ignorance BW but am I correct infering from your first post that SPL does not chair the PLC? Or is it that he does not monitor performance of Patrols? Not a problem Ozemu after all you are in a totaly differnt scouting program. The SPL runs the monthly Patrol Leaders Conference from an agenda that is developed a few days in advance with the help and advice of the Scoutmaster. The scoutmaster sits in on the meeting to keep the group under control, evaluate the needs of the junior leaders and their patrols, and to represent the BSA, and the troop committee. The performance of the patrols is the responsibility of the Patrol Leaders. The SPL is not responsible for individual patrols. He coordinates the activities of the troop. The troop is a gathering of self governed patrols. Each Patrol is under the leadership of its own elected leader. I is similar to within our political system of the Vice-President chairing the Senate. While he may be in charge of the meeting, he has no authority within the individual states. You can find the SPL's responsibilities beginning on page 10 of the SPL handbook. Ed, So you review the meeting 7 days after it happened? In hopes that the scouts will remember what they need to improve a week later??? And have how many minutes to effect a change before the next meeting begins???? Your about 7 days to late to make any changes. "They like this a lot." There are lots of things kids "like" that have nothing to do with the methods of purpose of scouting. There are leaders who like flipping kids upside down, that doesn't mean its the right thing to do.

Unless the DE started there day there is no way they would not know that girls cannot join Cub Scouts. I'm sorry but I do not know of any DE who attends unit committee meetings from time to time unless invited in because of a major problem that could not be addressed by a commissioner or other district member. This entire situation is totally implausible.

No council will accept the registration for a female under the age of 14. If there is a girl with the pack she is not registered member of the BSA. She cannot wear the uniform, she cannot advance, she is not covered by insurance. Contact your local Scout Executive, if this is anything more than a rumor, and the situation will be dealt with quickly. Bob White

"That being said, why does it seem to disturb you that a unit might tweak the frequency of their PLC meetings?" It doesn't. What disturbs me is that, in the situation you refer to, what the unit was doing originially wasn't anything like the BSA program and they thought it was. So they changed it to work better. But what they changed it to was something much closer to the BSA program and they didn't even know it. That trained leaders, who train other leaders, didn't know what is and what isn't the scouting program disturbs me a lot. "We are not talking something like a unit redesigning their uniform or deciding that instead of an outdoors program they will have movie nights once a week.. Yes, it is exactly the same. You cannot pick and choose which Method it is OK to change and which method is not. When you change the Methods you change scouting and that is not the job of the Unit to do. "The BSA states that a CO has to provide at least 10 nights of camping per year." No it doesn't. "Just because the training says to have a monthly PLC meeting does not mean it can be held more frequently if desired." But that is not what the BSA training says. It says to have a short 10-15 minute PLC at the END of each troop meeting (and there is a specific and sound reason behind that) and a 60-90 minute meeting once a month. If we are going to lead the BSA program we have a responsibility to learn what that program is. If you are not going to follow the program methods then you need to quit blaming the BSA at its various levels for the program not working. You need to use the entire program for all its components to work properly. Many of the posts we have seen blaming the BSA program for not working are groundless because not only were the leaders not using the program, they never took the time to learn what the program is.

John you are correct on point #1 but way off on 2 and 3. 2) There is no regular process for gathering Scouters ideas on any of these levels. Though, I see where there are opportunities for a Scouter to "force" himself into standard processes. There are several regular meetings each month at various troop, district and council levels where ideas can be shared and harvested and local program recommendations can be made. Unit Committee meetings, unit program committee meetings, Roundtables and Huddles, Training Courses, District Committee and District Subcommittee meetings, Counciil Committee and Council sub-cimmittee meetings just to name a few. In addition there are a number of open conmunication lines to share ideas with local volunteers and professionals who as heads of committees are also committee members at the next level. If you have an idea that has not been shared it cannot be blamed on lack of opportunity. 3) National sets policies and training curricula, etc., etc. without opening doors to ideas/input from Scouters in Units. Though, from what I've read in other threads, apparently selected Scouters are asked to contribute in the process. National is us. National committees, just like district and council committees are made of unit level volunteers, who have over the years shown excellence and experience in various areas of scouting. They serve under volunteers with a professional advisor just like in your District and Council committees. Just as an example there are over 200 volunteer adults leaders and youth members from across the country on the National Advancement Committee. Many of the people on these committees have proven their committment and knowledge of scouting over decades before having the opportuinty to provide input and service at the national level. But that doesn't mean that you can't have input. While e-mails and phone calls to national are not the best way siomply because of the shear size of the organization, your local professional can get you the name or division at National that you can address your ideas to. They do read the mail and it is shared with the various national committees. Philmont Training Center is good place to go, not only for excellent training and fellowship but you will have the opportunity to sit and talk with some of the professionals from the National office. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That does it painters at ten paces

John you will be happy to know that that has been addressed already. The role of Pack Trainer has been introduced to help evalute the training or retraining needs within a pack and to help deliver the resources need to support each adult leader in the unit. In Districts with Unit Commissioners they also play a role in evaluating unit needs including traing or program suport ofr the adults. A third level is the Cubmaster who as the program committee leader should be evaluateing and support the individual performance of each den Leader. Finally the Charter Organization Representative as the head of the Scouting Department for Co should be meeting at least once a year (just before recharter) to determine the needs and performance of the Den leaders and other adult volunteers. So the CO, the unit, and the District all play a role. But the best thing is to have selected a leader who wants to do well, who continually evaluate their own performance and who makes regular development a part of their personal committmemnt to the scouts they serve, by attending Roundtable, Pow Wow, Wood Badge and other learning opportunities.

Thank you, Mich is on the right track. The SM meets with the SPL for about 5 minutes prior to the meeting to review the plan, answer questions, offer suggestions and to assure the scout that he is doing fine. After the meeting the SM meets with the PLC and leads a reflection of what went well, what can be improved, give support for what they did well, offer resources to strengthen areas needing immprovement, review next weeks agenda. this takes 10 to 15 minutes. So now when the PLC has its monthly meeting it is not needed to review the past meetings, that has already been done as pointed ourt by KS. Why meet the PLC immediatly prior to the troop meeting? If they have not arrived prepared it's too late to do anything now. Making sure they come prepared for their responsibilities next meeting is done at the end of this weeks's meeting and then reinforced a few days later by the SPL or his ASPL(s) through phone call, email, or personal contact. At least that way they have time to prepare. Now is there any reason why that way couldn't work. Its what we teach, it would be swell if trained leaders used it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The point that I am trying to make cajoncody is that if the BSA wants to change it it is their program to change. If you want to suggest it great. But until the BSA makes the change it should not be done at the whim of the unit because a volunteer thinks they know better.

Oh Ye of little faith. If you try to recreate the knot as you describe, a loop tied in an overhand knot, the collar of the knot (the strand that lays almost parrallel to the banner) would be two strands thick, but the image is only one. The only knot I know of where you can take a loop of line, tie it through a hoop, and only have that collar one strand thick and not two or more is....(drum roll please) ....a larks head. I tried to simulate what both you and Eamonn suggested and I have either an extra rope end or two bends instead of just one. Next time we meet we can try to prove it when we can all see the same thing. First Wednesady of Jamboree meet me at the Mahone Area Stage. (This message has been edited by Bob White)