VigilNavyCPO

Congrats,

Good advice above, just want to add remember to seal your membership in the OA by going for Brotherhood next spring. Hopefully you are joining a active Lodge/Chapter, but if you are not, the OA is run by the youth(under 21 yo) so you can take part in increasing the activity level if it's not, or doing your part in helping keep a good thing going if it is.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

Moxieman,

I have gotten errors like this recently. I just logged out, closed all open browser windows, reopen and relogged on, then it was able to update successfully. Not sure if this was the "correct" method, but it works for me.

How are things in Madockawanda going? I made Vigil there in the early 80's and actually made some of those patches on the history section of your Lodge's website, boy I could tell you some sorties.

Happy Patch Hunting

nolesrule is right on both counts. I guess I am just as guilty as not knowing the rules. LOL

And I thinking it over some, as guess I have to agree on encouraging the new crossover Scouts not to vote.

From the Advisor Guide

The election team leader explains the following to the

unit leader:

This is the current method of election approved by

the national OA committee in use by the lodge.

All eligible youths who receive votes from at least 50

percent of those who turn in ballots are elected. If

no one is elected a second vote may be held immediately,

and the result of this vote will be final.

It's at least 50% of registered Scouts under the age of 21 present at the meeting to be able to hold an election.

It's at least 50% of those Scouts present who can vote to be elected.

If your Troop carries a lot of gray area leaders (ages 18 to 21) on the charter because they are in college, this could prevent you from having a legal election.

I understand why you would want to prevent Scouts with less then 6 months from voting, but by National OA rules they are allowed to. And it should make it that much harder for other Scouts to get elected, because it's at least 50% of the Scouts present who are allowed to vote, not 50% of those Scouts voting.

I have found that most Lodges I have been in do not know our own rules, or follow them.

Maybe a "National" Jamboree has gotten too large?

And if mandated costs are so high, is it because National and Council now use the "National" as a source of funds?

I think others above have correctly discussed Troop leadership issues, I want to comment on what I percieve as failings of the local OA Lodge/Chapter. I can tell from the limited amount of info posted above that the local Lodge does not hold Unit elections IAW published procedures. The elections shall be set up and announced in advance. At least 50% of all registered Scouts under the age of 21 in the troop are present. The SM provides a list of all Scouts who meet requirements, these names are copied unto the Election form and then the SM signs to verify.

The Problem with the OA IMHO is that when it works, it is a great enrichment to scouting, but when you have weak chapters or Lodges, and a just hold the election mentality, I guess we get what we deserve.

gsdad - "How does one get the point of DC and not have already been inducted in the OA?"

Easy answer, he was the only person to agree to do the job. He should of be contacted prior to that night and explained why he legally could attend, but that we did not want him to attend. If he stated then that he would attend, so be it, it is legal.

John-in-KC - "What idiot of a Chapter Adviser did not connect the dots that the District Commissioner was not an Arrowman and move Heaven and Earth to place him in the Order?

All I have to say John-in-KC that the Chapther Advisor may not have been able to do anything. In my current Lodge, District-level nominations and youth elections have to be held between Jan 1 & March 31, no exceptions. Maybe this Lodge has some simular rule.

I too am sorry you & your family are going thru these times. I agree with Lisabob comments about the CO's viewpoint, but the fact is you will probably never know what prompted the CO's reaction.

I want to add one additional point, if you maintain your membership in your crew, you can also maintian your membership in your local OA chapter. As you may guess from my username, I have been involved in the OA a long time, both as a youth & adult. One of the interesting nunaces of the OA is that youth membership is too the age of 21. This allows young men over the age of 18 to take thier leadership skills to a different level. It is true that this role is mentored, but this IMHO only further encourages leadership growth.

I hope for your sake that whatever happens in your former Troop, please do not take it personally, which will be hard not too.

Your comments : "I would like to know where they plan to obtain the personal experience and scouting skills. Am I the only one that feels this way?" make me feel that you feel as if only you & your fellow ASM's have Scouting skills. That fact is that BSA has some great training programs, and the CO is willing to step down on the Troops activity level until new leaders are trained.

nolesrule's Point of correction is correct, the Scout must be a First Class and a Scout or Varsity Scout to be elected. I think I should pay better attention when I edit requirements

talen333's statement that Cub Scout packs cannot elect anyone to OA is true, but if he holds a District job, he could be nominated by the District thru that procedure. The main requirement is if the adult joining will benifit the OA.

Yes the OA is open for membership as a adult. I just got in for my son's ordeal, and 6 adults went thru at the same time. This is also the only way for a female to become member of the OA.

See following edited (by me) membership requirements:

All candidates who are older then 21 and who are registered members of the BSA shall be considered as a adult candidate for membership. Individuals shall be selected as candidates based on the following:

1. Adult leaders in Troop or Venture crews: Each year, upon holding a troop or team election for youth candidates that results in at least one youth candidate being elected, the unit committee

may nominate one adult to the lodge adult selection committee.

Selection of the adult is based on the ability to perform

the necessary functions to help the Order fulfill its purpose, and not for recognition of service, including current or prior achievement and positions.

The individual will be an asset to the Order because of demonstrated abilities that fulfill the purpose of the Order.

The camping requirements set forth for youth members are fulfilled.

The adult leaders membership will provide a positive example for the growth and development of the youth members of the lodge.

2. Adult leaders in council and district positions: The lodge adviser, district chairmen, council president, or

members of the professional staff may nominate adults

to the lodge adult selection committee. All requirements

set forth for adult leaders in units must be fulfilled,

with the exception of that the camping requirements may be waived.

Because the Order of the Arrow is principally a youth organization, unit, district, and council Scouters are not selected for membership as a recognition.

Selection should take place only when the adults position in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership.

Buffalo Skipper,

Wow! You say what I wanted to say so much better. It is the reason why I still enjoy "working" the program to help young boys become productive Adults.

I too was a Life Scout as a youth. I was caught up in the "Urban movement" in the late 70's. This was the "New Scouting" movement, and had 3 Scout books with different Rank requirements during my time as a youth. In addition I had a SM who believed a Scout could only be an Eagle after age 17, and by that age I was much more active in the OA, and did not want what that SM then considered a watered down Eagle. I could always say I reget not getting Eagle, but I do not. I fully encourage all the boys in my Troop to make Eagle, and if asked will say that I should of made the rank, but did not, and it is my job to mentor them to achieve what I did not.

On the flip side of rank advancement, my troop allows older Scouts to stay active in the Troop if they cannot make Eagle due to the time requirements. There was a "Eagle mill" troop by my troop when I was stationed in Virginia that had a "Up or out' policy. You made rank by a certain time in the troop or were not welcome to stay in the troop. Our troop allowed several "castoffs" from that troop to join our troop, and they contributed greatly. Most of them were elected into the OA from our troop and I know the ability to stay in Scouting "not Eagle" helped them greatly.

I have had a great time in Scouts, made lots of friends and been to on a lot of great campouts, but I find it disappointing how much emphasis the "public" places on Eagle. I know it is a great achievement, but if only 1 or 3% of Scouts achieve that rank, does that mean the rest of us wasted our time?

I think skeptic has a great point, maybe if Scouting promoted First Class rank as the epitome of scouting skills, then we could move pass our fixation with Eagle.

According to EPA it is dust that spreads the asbestos contamination. So all roads and trails will need to be hard covered (ie pavement or clay). The superfund only covers the mine site. The council is working with the EPA and plans on reopening next year, but I've aready taken a bunch of calls from parents who believe that there is no need to risk going back. There are serveral nice camps in New England that are further south (ie warmer). I hope that this is only a one year setback.

http://www.wptz.com/health/19445660/detail.html

An asbestos mine on Belvidere Mountain from 1936 to 1975 left an estimated 3,500,000 cubic yards of mill tailings. In 2008, the state warned residents of the town and nearby towns that there was a "health risk" for people living within a ten mile radius of the mine. Above ground mill tailings were estimated at 16,000,000 cubic yards.

The camp is about 3.5 miles from the former mine. Last year scout parents started asking council if the Camp was safe, so the Council decided to have the EPA check. Guess what, camp is shut down to clean up the asbestos contamination in the ground. I wonder why no one thought of looking at this issue before, because the former mine is a Superfund cleanup site.

From my Councils website: Introduction to Outdoor Skills - Outdoor skills are critical to the success of the Scouting program, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills will provide leaders with the basic outdoor skills information needed to start a program right.

Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills is the required outdoor training for all Scoutmasters, Assistant Scoutmasters, and Varsity Scout Coaches. The skills taught are based on the outdoor skills found in The Boy Scout Handbook.

From Scoutnut - I am sorry to hear you do not feel that you need to take the trainings. Perhaps you do know it all, however BSA would like the boys you will be in charge of to have an even chance of getting a decent BSA program, no matter how long you personally have been a member.

I only felt that I did not need to take the "Introduction to Outdoor Skills", as it is takes a weekend in my council. I was being honest about my camping skills after almost 40 years of Scouting that I will not learn any "basic outdoor skills information" that will be provided during the weekend. I completely understand the Patrol method, and encourage the boys to run "their" program. I am only a mentor at this stage of my scouting career.

Yes, my the boys in my Troop need & deserve a "Trained" leader. This is why I will attend. I will be a willing member of my patrol, as I have no desire to ruin others time/training. My only grip was that I would not be able to convince my wife on why I am going, as she has read the course description.

Its attitude like yours towards me that makes me not want deal with Scouting above the unit level.

Scoutnut, I do thank you for your guidance on that the courses will only be required once. I will check with Council to see what their actual policy is, as the guidance we recieved during SM/ASM Leader Specific traing from the District Training Team did not seem to make sense.

I have been a Scout/Scouter for almost 40 years, (and I am only 46). I have been a Cub, Scout, OA, Tiger Dad, Den Leader, ACM, CM, ASM, & SM. I am NOT God's gift to scouting, but have been around the block a few times, and really love Scouting. I firmly believe that all leaders should be trained, as soon as reasonably possible. The grip I have is that to get my trained patch, I need to do "Outdoor Training". I will do it for the good of the Troop & Scouts, but there is no way I can convince my wife that this time will be spent learning anything. And before anyone replies, asking to be on training staff is not a option locally (not WB qualified). All I can do is attend & document. BTW, one of my fellow ASMs asked the District Trainer if we need to take the course over you move from ASM to SM, and the answer is yes? SM & ASMs attended the same course together, why would I have to attend it again if I moved up, or the SM moved down to ASM? I could see the lecture part(if it was different traing, which it is not) but why would you reattend the "Outdoor" part. I think this policy assumes that the Leader attending training was never a Scout or Leader before (or is it just excessive CYA on Nationals part). Perhaps there should be a District Trainer sign off/waiver for the outdoors portion for Scouters who have 10 or 20 year pins?

Welcome to the forum and the OA. Good luck in your Scouting career. God, I wish I was in your shoes and at the beginning again.

I ran CFC for years on the ship in the Navy. It was my job to ask Sailors to support the campaign. If leadership (Ship Commanding Officer (CO) & Officers) presented it as a good thing, Sailors responded with their wallets wide open. If leadership went thru the motions of supporting it, the wallets were shut. As far as how CFC & UW distributed their donations, you will fine that a % is taken off the top as "Local cost" which is then used to support charities that the normal person would not give to. For example, One person gives $100 to your local Scout Council thru UW, Local takes 12% for local costs (total 7% Admin & 5 % local charity share fund. Thus $88 is sent to the Scout Council. If the Local Scout Council then uses 5% for Admin, then only $83 goes to the program. If you give to the local Council thru FOS, then $100 5% admin = $95 to the program. As you can see a greater share will support the program if you cut out the middleman (UW).

I am not a WB. I made Vigil back in a time & place where there was great distrust (& dislike) between the two camps (WB & OA) in my council. Some of my lifelong friends have done WB and loved it, and I know it is a great program, but I feel my time is currently more important with the troop then on myself. I made Chief Petty Officer at sea during wartime, I have learned a lot about leadership in the US Navy. I have been in Scouts for 39 years (joined Cub Scouts at age 7) and believe I know alot (not all) about scouting, so I do not see a reason to WB. Unfortunately I am currently in a District where the "WB club" believes that if you are not WB then you are either not a leader or not willing to volunteer for the boys. I know I will never fit in locally above the Troop level, luckly I can continue to help the Boys in my Troop the best I can. It is sad fact that some in WB ( at least locally) believe if you are not WB, then you must not know what you are doing.

I believe you did the best you could at the time.

My 2 cents on how I ran a PWD in Hampton Roads as ACM. Pack rules followed district rules so winners could go to district event. The pack held a PWD clinic at some parents house. This was great because single moms rarely had tools to make a car. Tigers Cub cars were "encouraged" to be just weighted and painted with watercolors and/or stickers. We used a large hall for two days for the PWD. Set up was Friday night and courtesy inspections/ weigh-in with official scale were held while the track was setup and the hall staged. If the Scout was happy the car could be impounded over night. Next morning inspections from 8 to 9 am. At 9:30 a committee would judge each car for Best in Den/Pack awards. This committe would also come up with a "Tag-line" for each car (ie Best use of Color). These "Tag-line" were then inputed into a laptop and printed out on a label with Scouts Name, Den, Year. This label was placed on a Pack made display stand. This allowed racing to start at 10am. Scouts had to be present to race. The scout was the only person allowed to take their car from table to track. The pack used a 8 lane track with digital timer and Racing software (we had between 55 and 80 racers each year). There is a overhead projector and the lights are dimmed with spotlights on the finish line. The Scouts would place the car on the track and sit by the finish line on one side of the track on the floor The Dens were run as a group, The top two from each Den to Finals. Each Scout raced at least 8 times. We found we could get thru the Dens in less then one hour. Then we had Pizza delivered and a big 45 minute lunch break. The cars were place on the newly tagged stands before lunch outside of Pitlane. All non Finals Scouts could claim cars during lunch. We then ran Finals. 15 minutes tops, a quick award ceremony and then break down. The track was always last so that "grudge" matches could go on. I know some Packs do not let the Scouts put there car on the track, but we found them capable of doing it. There was a official starter to make sure cars were set prior to starting the race. I did this as "Pinewood Derby Master" for several years and had a blast.

Rick,

An intelligent Gunny? I thought we called them US Navy SEALS!

Just kidding, I had many friends in the Corps, Semper Fi. U.S.Navy & Marine brothers would smart talk each other in a overseas bar, but let some local or "God-forbid" a Chair Force puke make a comment to one of us and we would shake hands and join forces.

I retired last year after 23 years, with 18 years of continous sea-duty, and I greatly miss it.

YiS

Mike

PS You are right there is some good scuttlebut here.

Maryj,

Just some examples from my troop. We currently have 14 scouts. Three scouts have had weight issues in the last two years. One was becoming overweight as a Tenderfoot, I talked to his father about it, and the family decided to do extra food snack training, he has since lost weight. (The problem started with a child care provider, which the family also changed). The other two both have gained enough weight in the last two years to be considered obese. Sadly in both cases the Boys are from divorced families and one of the parents(in each case) refuse to deny the boy comfort food because their lives are hard since the divorce. Surprisingly in both cases its the Mom. I have tried to discuss this issue with the kids parents. The Dads were supportive, but the Boys are full time custody with the Mothers. We have tried extra Troop hikes, the Mothers choose not to let them go.

Hope this was helpful.

Hello all,

I am a lifelong scouter just returning to active OA membership now that one of my sons has gone thru his ordeal. Currently active in Troop leadership. This is a great resource. I have been following "Eagle problems - BIG" post and love the even handed replies. If I ever has a problem I cannot see a way past, you bet I am coming here for some advice.