bnelon44

I think the issue with skill training is that the vast number of Scouters today can't afford the time to devote to it. Asking them to come to an overnight is strenuous enough and that only gives them the "firehose" method, they don't learn much from that.

Someone explain to me why an experienced Scouter should be in a beginners course? Most of the time is a waist for them and the instructor is saddled with a grumpy student.

In the early days of Woodbadge it was a week long and included skill training. I never attended it, but it sounds like the right thing to do. Problem is, modern leaders don't want to devote that much time to basic training.

Eagle92

I think the IOLS check off list is in the back of the syllabus, I don't have one in front of me either.

I am pretty sure from the Volunteer Training Team correspondence with me that they are well awaire of the limitations of IOLS and SM Specifics. What we really need is a week long Scoutmaster training course, but it ain't gonna happen in this day and age.

Beavah

If we look historically, and I did for some research I did last year, see:

http://www.bsatroop14.com/history

http://www.bsatroop14.com/patrolmethod

There were a number of places the BSA communicated the patrol method to the field:

1. The Patrol Leader's Handbook (use to be called the Handbook for Patrol Leaders) - that was the first place parts of the Patrol Method were described in the BSA in 1928.

2. The Scoutmaster's Handbook (use to be called the Handbook for Scoutmasters)

3. The Boy Scout Handbook (use to be called the Handbook for Boys)

4. In a very small program pamphlet called The Patrol Method Patrol Helps for Scoutmasters that was used briefly in the late 1930s.

see: http://bsatroop14.com/history/The_Patrol_Method.pdf

5. Scouting Magazine

6. Boys Life Magazine

7. Training materials

The same is true today (well all but #4)

The original purpose of the GTA was to teach Councils how to administer advancement and what the policies and proceedures are. Since the 1930s there has been some kind of guide like this available to the councils. It has now been made readable so that interested unit leaders can understand it. I think that is a good thing.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

JMHawkins,

Thanks. I think it is a training issue, if you don't tell people what's important they grab something (like advancement guidelines or safety guidelines) and think those are the all important things. I really think it is a training issue. And, hey, that's my field!

So a Scout is Trustworthy unless he wants something right away, then he cheats and lies to get a badge for someone under false pretenses.

got it ... good to know(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Eagle92

Your making an arguement for learning basic Scoutcraft skills which is what the First Class Emphasis program is suppose to be all about. People have gotted sidetracked into thinking it is to check a box off in a book. That isn't the purpose of the program. The purpose of the program is to educate the Scouts in the skills so they are prepared for adventures.

Beavah asked, Where's da separate guide for Patrol Method?

It's called the Patrol Leader's Handbook

If you want to talk about ancient days. It use to be that you didn't do board of reviews, that the council did. Then they presented the rank. Since a Scout is suppose to be Trustworthy, you are suppose to follow the process and file the paperwork to council before giving the award today. Why? Because for one thing a LOT of unregistered Scouts are caught that way.

What part of the Scout Law says it's ok to cheat if your an adult but the Scouts can't?

With Internet Advancement, I don't see any real excuse why the vast majority of units can't follow the process.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Eagle92

On the T1/T2 examples. Advancement adds to a good program but doesn't replace a good program. IMHO, troops that focus on advancement over a well rounded program end up being a weak troop. That's why I keep saying advancement is only one of eight methods. GTA says the same thing by the way in one of the first chapters.

I agree that it is easy to fall into the advancement = program trap(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

What are some of the most common advancement questions you have heard?

Eagle92

Looks like an area of improvement for the GTA and your local council.

the boy deserves what he earns in a reasonable time. With Internet advancement you should be able to get all advancment except Eagle filed right away. The GTA should be clear that once filed, you can award the rank. The only time that is different is with Eagle since national wants to be the authorizing official for it.

I can understand if you are overseas that a "stash" makes sense. If you are in Phoenix, AZ it does not.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

That would be a good suggestion to send to: program.content@scouting.org

I agree with Brewmeister.

Think Leadership EDGE. They start out very enthusiastic about Scouting but have no skills. Then their enthusiasm dies down but they still have little or no skills, so they get frustrated. The patrol has to gain skills and confidence to get over this hurtle or they will disband (quit.) So you emphasise skill training. That is the purpose of FC1Y.

Eagle92 said: "Establish practices that will (emphasis mine) bring each new Boy Scout to First Class rank within a year of joining, and then to Star rank the following year."

I think that is the key. The boy may or may not make it, but if your program is setup that way he will have the opportunities, many of them outdoors, and the fun. And he will feel like he is progressing. Boys don't want to sit through boring troop meetings week in and week out for years.

Personally, I don't advocate a stash of badges. It leads to the temptation of giving them out before the paperwork is filed. Or never filing the paperwork (we have run into that problem in my council only to find the Eagle candidate who is 17+ years old hasn't been registered for the last 2 years .

Beavah

There are problems in both cases, and you probably know I would say that, and you probably know what they are.

You don't rush Scouts through the requirements to make some kind of artificial dead line. There is nothing in the GTA that advocates that.

You don't flunk a Scout at a BOR for forgetting a skill

I can go on and on, but as I said, you already know what the issues are in both cases.

I believe they are real troops, no troop is perfect. We muddle through as best we can and try to give a quality program. All of us are interested in the boys.

I appreciate the discussion on FC1Y, BORs and once and done. It has given me some perspective as to what Scouters feel is lacking in the GTA which prepares me for teaching the guide in soon to be given classes.

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Camp Geronimo is a great camp. The website is here:

http://grandcanyonbsa.org/openrosters/view_homepage.aspx?orgkey=1301

The US Scouting Service Project list of Boy Scout Camps is here:

http://www.usscouts.org/databases/camp/ocd.cgi

Some progress:

I found a phrase in a 1981 version of Scouting Magazine (pg 20) as a "Front Line Stuff" comment that is similar. It is from an advancement chairman in Cleveland. So a similar, but different phrase, has been around that long. He said, "A boy advances in the Scout program the same way he acquires a suntan, by having fun in the right climate." This phrase has a different meaning from the one I posted on the 1st post though.

Still looking for who the original author said it (unless this is the guy)

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Aids to Scoutmastership is here:

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/a2sm.pdf

It has an interesting chapter on training but I don't see anything about a suntan in it. He doesn't use the word advance or advancement. Nor does he allude to advancement being natural and you just let the boy go and he naturally advances. Instead the Scoutmaster takes an active part in guiding the Scout towards skills the Scout takes a liking to. No "I expect a First Class Scout to know _____ " fill in the blank.

(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Beavah

How you tested when you were active in the program is fine as long as it is done at the testing phase and you are testing what the requirements are asking you to test.

The only problem I have is when people stack other obstacles in the Scout's way that are not in the requirements and not sign him off because they "expect a First Class Scout to know _____" fill in the blank.

It has pretty much always been the process in the BSA that during the learning (preparation) phase the Scout learns by doing. The skill is explained to him and he is guided through it. Usually multiple times and given multiple opportunities in the field to exercise the skill. Then he is tested

Once the testing phase is done, and he is in the Review phase and sitting (not standing) in front of a Board of Review, the Scout is not retested.

That is the current process and the same process Bill Hillcourt presented in 1936.

As I pointed out, B-P was more lenient than Hillcourt. As I pointed out B-P said how much a Scout tries should be taken into consideration as to his passing the test or not. That is the BSA standard for Cub Scout advancement, not Boy Scout advancement.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

This may be better in the history section, but it has relevance here.

I have seen this quoted a lot, but I can't find the source.

Baden-Powell put it this way: Advancement is like a suntanSomething you get naturally whilst having fun in the outdoors.

I suspect it isn't a direct quote because BP seldom used the term advancement.

Can anyone tell me where it comes from?(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

It sounds like it was discovered at camp. The SM should have gone to the camp director then and there.

My guess is they weren't even having an adult MBC signing off on the cards.

responded to post to wrong thread(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

Scoutfish

Most camps have in addition to registered merit badge counselors (they have to be over 18 years old to register), youth instructors. Often the classes are run by the youth instructors with the final sign off given by the registered MBC. It is the MBC's responsibility to make sure quality is kept up in the classes.

So when this is first noticed, the unit leader at camp should go talk to the merit badge counselor at that particular area at camp (he is often called a program director for that area).

The overall camp director is responsible for making sure quality is kept up in all the different areas. So if you are still having problems, then go see the camp director.

By all means, report it to the Council Advancement Committee, they are responsible for making sure quality is kept in the council with regard to the merit badge program. And they have clout with the camps.

It is the council advancement committee's responsibility to make sure counselors sign off only on requirements the scouts have accually completed. Unit Leaders who find quality control issues in council and district run group or individually counseled merit badges should report their findings to the Council Advancement Committee. The badge, if signed off, is earned by the Scout and should be considered complete. However we do not wish to continue a poor quality program.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

BSA24

I have talked to some of the people who wrote the Guide to Advancement. And one of the major reasons why it was written was because Boards of Reviews were grilling Scouts and perfectly fine Eagle projects were being rejected by units or by district eagle boards. Scoutmasters would not accept signed off merit badges because they thought they could do the counseling better than the counselor, etc., etc., etc.

They said the intent of the guide was to lay down some simple to follow rules that gave an even playing field to all Scouts and unites in the US. So Scoutmasters, who have the best of intentions, don't go overboard and demand too much to advance, and give some help to units that are struggling to understand what they should do.

Someone on the thread quoted Baden-Powell who said advancement should come naturally with a good program. I think that is very true.

Lisabob,

"What you keep describing is, I believe, a weakening of the advancement method. "

Uh? I haven't suggested any changes in the advancement method. What exactly led you to that conclusion?(This message has been edited by bnelon44)