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tortdog

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Everything posted by tortdog

  1. No doubt when your son visited, the LDS troop hid the holy hand grenade so that he could not touch it.
  2. The BSA will (i) hold its values and continue as it has since the Dale case, or (ii) change and allow groups that hold diverse moral values to enlarge its base. If the former, it will continue as is, with the percentage of scouters to the population about the same. If the latter, there will be a large (more than 20%) exodus from the BSA from historical sponsors (mainly church sponsored units), leaving the BSA more like the YMCA or Girl Scouts. (Not a put down of those other organizations, but just on a different plane in my opinion.)
  3. >Let's see Pack/Troop/Team/Crew & ??? to make 5? Don't mean to split hairs, oh heck yes I do... I'm trying to be a pain! How am I doing?? No worries at all. I at first put four but backtracked because the 11-year olds are in a completely different troop than the 12-13 year olds. It may not be a separate registered unit, but you would never know it by watching since it has its own scoutmaster and assistants and the 11-year olds never meet with the main troop. BTW, the troop goes to one scout camp (further away) while the 11-year olds go to a close one (so they can return each night)
  4. I don't think that anyone meant something offensive, more just trying ot understand. Just some comments: Regarding the selection of the scout leaders by the bishops, my experience has been that the bishopric picks the best people that they can find to lead those BSA units. Over and over again the Church impresses upon the bishops that our youth are our most important assets. We Christ who taught that a person who offends a child would be best to throw a millstone around his neck and jump off a bridge. These callings are among THE most important in the Church (if not the most important). I
  5. Meanwhile, some people think is a hunky-dory idea to have children use their dance routines to mimic the moves of a strip dancer so long as they have a little more covered. Oh yes...why oh why are more kids wanting to test the waters of sex, with children even raping each other?
  6. Actually, Merlyn, the plantiff's parent made your argument and the court disagreed. The court looked to churches and almost laughed out loud when the plaintiff's argued that the BSA was a church or a form of religion. (If the BSA WAS a religion, it's a pretty screwed up one since part of it thinks Saturday is sacred, the other part thinks that Sunday is sacred, part thinks cows are holy, part thinks we shouldn't eat pork...I mean...talk about MESSED UP!) In seriousness, though, if the BSA literature included in it solicitations for the children to come to the BSA and pledge a duty to God,
  7. Certainly not to jump on you, Prarie, but don't misunderstand the import of the Varsity and Venturing programs on the troops. Remember, almost every LDS BSA ward/parish has (i) a troop, (ii) a team and (iii) a crew. To receive awards/recognition in the team and crew, the scouts have to provide service. And, that service is often required to be provided to younger youth. So, my Varsity Scouts to earn the basketball pin have to teach the rules of the game to younger youth. Guess who is their prime target: the troops. So the younger scouts DO receive training from the older scouts. I would argue
  8. Absolutely. I first referenced the case here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=94655&p=8 A summary of the case is here: http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_cosa.asp?TRACKID=&VID=50&CID=468&DID=35571 Merlyn. You will be happy to know that the court found that the BSA is STILL allowed into the classroom to explain the Boy Scout program and distribute the literature. So life moves forward and everyone is at peace.
  9. You hit on one of the difficulties LDS units face with leadership. Our leaders are all "called" to the task. The process is that the Bishop (kind of like the local Catholic priest) "calls" a member to fill a position in the Church, as the entire Church (including bishops) are all volunteers. Once the Bishop issues the calling to the member, the member chooses to accept or reject the calling. If the calling is accepted, the member is expected to "magnify" the calling, which generally means learn what is expected and do better than that. Unfortunately with the Scouting callings, too often t
  10. Merlyn, whether you like it or not there is already court precedent that the BSA can distribute its literature at public schools. The court found that the BSA literature is not promoting religion.
  11. First, I call being "pushed to the brink" when you are forced to defend a decision in public court. The ACLU dragged the BSA there. The ACLU forced the BSA to have one-on-one's with the major supporting organizations of the BSA, which resulted in a firm policy that I doubt the BSA will retreat from for a long time to come. So...the gay lobby made it's own bed. >as I remember, the Texas sodomy law that recently saw its end was rejected because the sodomy law (a very loose interpretation of the act in this case) was being applied ONLY to gays when, in fact, those acts included were
  12. Merlyn, here's where you don't get it. The BSA is not a religion. It only requires duty to God. It doesn't ask who your God is. It doesn't ask how you worship your God. It merely asks this question: Do you commit to do your duty to your God? If the answer is yes, then you are in. If the answer is no, then you are out. It's really that simple. That's not discrimination based on religion (since you can be Jewish, Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, anything). It IS discrimination against only those who refuse to do their duty to God. Regarding your fear of the BSA precedent allowing c
  13. First, fighting the BSA helps the ACLU coffers because it panders to its supporters, AND they get free bucks in the way of legal fees. While it's true that there is merit to awarding a winning plaintiff for suing the government for infringement of civil rights, why shouldn't the People (the taxpayers) be entitled to attorney fees from the ACLU when the ACLU is wrong? If it's hard to believe, let's see the ACLU return the taxpayer's money. The ACLU is the one suing. The ACLU is costing both sides the attorney fees. When the ACLU makes a mistake, it just files another lawsuit and star
  14. >Hey tortdog, what about the gay and atheist kids? Don't they count? It appears not. Gay kids are allowed (and I kind of doubt that their sexuality at 8-years old has been explored anyway). Children who refuse to abide by the Scouth Oath/Law have voluntary chosen to not join the BSA. The BSA isn't keeping them out, those kids are keeping themselves out. They chose. Choices have consequences. >The Powell case in Oregon is largely over in-school recruiting; it's been dragging on for years. The recent ruling by the Oregon court of appeals sounds like the ACLU will win.
  15. >There ARE a lot of BSA units in Texas chartered to public schools (Texas is the worst, with about 25% of all Packs chartered to schools). Well, I'd rewrite that to say "Texas is the best, with about 25% of all Packs chartered to schools." Hunt. I hear ya. Until I was on District Committee, I didn't even know that schools sponsored BSA units. I thought that almost all BSA units were sponsored by churches, with cities picking up some slack. There is no downside to the BSA. The only harm I see is that a lot of kids who aren't active in a church because of parental decisions m
  16. That's not good enough for the ACLU. It sues the government for continuing its historical relationship with the BSA, such as allowing the BSA to use its property for the National Jamboree. Also, I have a feeling that the law has been construed to allow the ACLU to force state/city governments to pay ACLU legal fees for "discrimination" claims, while those governments to not receive attorney fees from the ACLU when the government wins. Supposedly this is why LA backed away from defending its city seal against the ACLU. Options were: #1 Defend the historical seal that includes a cross:
  17. How can you argue with CS's post. The prices for the BSA clothing are outrageous (though I've spent it and ask my boys' parents to spend it). The BSA should have clothing that everyone WANTS to own, with people buying BSA pants because they its better than they can find elsewhere (with a better price). If for-profit companies can make good quality pants that others want, certainly a not-for-profit can figure out a way to do the same at the same price (or less). (Wishing for the first time that I was in Canada...)
  18. Someone earlier made the point that the ACLU is getting rich off its lawsuits. I found that somewhat hard to believe, personally knowing a few ACLU attorneys - none of whom are rich. However, I now see this person's point. The ACLU has strategically begun to attack the government to extract millions of dollars by litigating against its historically close relationship with the BSA. Under the law, if the ACLU sues the United States for violation of civil rights and it wins, the United States must pay the attorney fees of the ACLU. Big bucks. If the United States wins, then the court C
  19. Maybe you are right, and the schools are not sponsoring the units, but it sure looks that way. I'll have to inquire next time I'm at the school. The packs are all over the place.
  20. >What bothers me though, and I see it a lot, as I'm sure many of you do too, is people that are obese (or whatever) through their own vices. I think this is a really big problem with our society and as such is in scouting in the US too. First, in jest. I could not stop smiling at the suggestion that obesity in society is a big problem. In seriousness, though, if the adult leader is unable to do the things required of the boys, how is he able to lead? If we can't show the boys how to do a pull up, or how to swim a lap, how effective are we as a leader in the physical aspects of Sco
  21. I apologize for responding when I'm not in your situation, but you wrote something that really moved me: >I treadmill a few times a week and use the time to pray. One minute for for this..., one for him..., one for her...it is amazing how fast 20 minutes flies by. What a terrific idea.(This message has been edited by tortdog)
  22. NJ. I did not mean to demean Dale. I was taking the case to the extreme to make the point that apparently the BSA only cares about people engaged in perceived immoral behavior brought to the public's attention. >I have never received anything approaching a reasonable answer... in fact, I can think of only one poster who has even attempted an answer, and the answer didn't make any sense. I'm going to try, but I am sure you know as well as I that my answer would mean little since I am not in the BSA's mind. >Adultery, heterosexual cohabitation, a conviction for driving while
  23. Maybe people who don't let scouts drive at 12 do not trust the boys enough to let them lead.
  24. Maybe someone ought to tell our local schools here in Houston that they can't sponsor Cub packs as is done currently. They are booming and using the school's facilities. Fancy that Congress can open in prayer but some think it should be illegal for schools to sponsor a group that believes in duty to God and country.
  25. Well, I wrote: >If you start to stand up and scream "I am gay!" then the BSA says you are out. Maybe the BSA will never send out a secret squad to determine our private sins, but if a Scouter starts producing pornographic movies while proclaiming he is a BSA leader, the BSA would act to remove him. In other words, the BSA doesn't know if people are gay unless they stand up and scream it (as did Dale). Repeating myself, perhaps the BSA WOULD kick a leader out if he also proclaimed himself to be a porn producer, or expanding, was publicly found to be a thief, etc.
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