Tiny1pj

I have to take a stand opposing the BSA allowing the boy to wear the uniform to promote the "anti-human" approach of organizations like PETA. They are truely terrorist organizations, promoting the hurting and possible killing of people involved in fishing, hunting, and use of natural resourses.

This boy needs to be taught that he shows himself representing scouting when he appeared in the add wearing his uniform.

These are the same organizations that align themselves with pro-homosexual, pro-murder (abortion), and anti-2nd ammendment groups. They cannot stand killing and eating a fish, but condone killing a baby that has not been born yet. They condone killing scientist that are trying to find cures all forms of diseases.

This young man needs to know the WHOLE truth about what he is being a spokesman for.

Paul Johnson

Thanks Mike. I had not heard of that search engine before. I did do several searches on differant engines, and after over 100 sites, my hands to sore to type any longer, I thought about posting here. Many of the replies on other threads have been very good and helpful for my very new troop.

I will check each of these out. Thanks again!

Paul

As with all things in scouting, you need to lead what you want the boys to follow. If you are not "reverant", neither will the boys.

If you want the boys to respect everything, you need to BEFORE you try to teach them about respect.

Before I became totally disabled, my sons always saw me at church whenever the doors were open. Now, I have difficutlty getting there. I have to budget my energies better than an accountant does money. Yet, they want to be at church whenever ANYTHING is going on. They are now 8 & 10.

As we have all learned in training:

You have to lead by example before you can lead by talking.

Paul Johnson

Due to my location (Lander, Wyoming), it is very difficult for me to find any wheelchair vans, let alone one that I can afford. My income is fixed (SS disability).

Although I am multiply disabled, I would like to remain an active scouter. The boys are very important to me, and I attend every function I am able. My current registrations include: District Committee (Activities member), Troop Committee Chair, Cubmaster, and Webelos Den Leader.

A full size van, with raised roof, side entrance. In the future I will need hand controls. I can currently transfer between my chair and the driver seat if it swivels. I also expect to be needing a power wheelchair.

Due to my height (6'6") and having a VERY long torso, even regular minivans are too short for me, and I cannot stretch out my leg (I am a left lower limb amputee).

I am also hoping to find something I can use to help transport the Troop and Pack boys to events and camping. Because of the camping, and where we like to go, a mini-van or lowered floor would be problematic. Although I have only seen one, a 4 wheel drive with diesel would be a esceptionally handy (When you dream, dream big )

I do most of the driving. Even though I am the troop committee chair, I am present and active at most activities except off road hikes. Even then I am the "U-Haul" for heavy/bulky items, especially for my Pack.

If you happen to know of a van, please let me know. Additionally, if you know of any funding assistance for this, I would appreciate hearing about it.

YIS,

God Bless,

Paul Johnson

Wind River District Committee Member

T-4013 Committee Chair

P-17 Cubmaster

Den 1 Webelos Den Leader

paj@coffey.com

(307) 332-5957

I totally agree with eisley on keeping the emergancy electronics in the bottom of the back, planning to NEVER take them out, except as I mentioned with the GPS to help the boys to learn how it is an adjunct to the compass and map.

Thank you eisley for your compliment. My reason for looking at having to go to a power chair is multifold. I lost my left leg to a farm accident, and now I have diabetes. Even with treatment I have developed several severe complications, most notably neuropathy in all 4 limbs, and have lost most of the feeling in my foot.

Although only 40, I also have permanent nerve damage in my hands and arthritis in my back and shoulders that limits my strength.

Even so, I completed woodbadge in June, and completed my ticket 2 weeks ago.

Something that I do not think people realize is that I am just trying to be a good example, not "super scouter". I do not see myself as better than the rest, and am very embarrassed when told what an inspiration I am. I have just had to adapt around my impairments to do the things I enjoy.

God be with you in your surgery,

God bless,

Paul Johnson

While I agree that electronics should not be used as toys, I totally disagree about having them on the trail for emergency backup. I have had 3 high quality compasses fail (point inconsistantly). My experiences may be unique in that I handle over 100 compasses a year in my hunter education classes.

Add to the fact that with bad weather and poor visability, you may not be able to orient a map on the ground.

The GPS is a good way for the boys to validate their location AFTER they have determined it using the map and compass. However, just like everything, it has its limitations and difficulties, and these should be taken into account when it needs to be used.

I have known several people who have died because they were so sure of their own capabilities, only to be lost, or caught in a freak blizzard (we have a lot of them here).

We have so many guidelines of what we cannot do as scouts (Guide to safe scouting), why not take the minimal measure of having 2 items for the emergency - a GPS and cell phone. When used properly (emergency only), they will not take away from the experience of the outing, only add a tiny measure of added safety. I should not have to specify when used properly and within their limitations, however some of the arguments I have seen against taking them have been of that trivial nature.

By the way, where do you draw the line? I am probably going to be in a power wheelchair within the next 2-3 years. Will that be forbidden also, as it is powered, and very obviously an electrical device? This should be obvious, however I do know some that say a scout should not be on outings if he cannot walk and "carry his own weight".

Paul Johnson

In our council, anyone who wants may attend WB, after completing BS Fundamentals. As a relatively new scouter (4 years), I found the course informative and enjoyable.

One of the things that helped my patrol come together was having to help get me around the course physically. I am almost always in a wheelchair. In our course, only 1 of 5 patrols DID NOT have someone in the course that was not mobility impaired, although I was the only one that could not walk.

Paul

I am not sure who the "LC" is, however to ban prayer at a scout meeting would be to say that the 12th point of the scout law is of no importance.

Because the PACK I am part of is not affiliated with a church, we have never had a prayer during a pack meeting except when a meal was served.

However, every TROOP meeting the prayer, opening and closing is up to the boys. They are encouraged to include prayer, as well as keep their church an active part of their lives.

Every troop committee meeting is started and ended with prayer.

As to the "circle up", check out your "Group Meeting Sparklers" and you will find many differant circle ceremonies. My den as well as troop try several differant ones at various times during the month.

Paul Johnson

I find it amusing that so many people have no problem paying 40-100 for clothing they rarely wear, yet balk at a uniform item.

In my course, EVERYONE was in full uniform, the SAME uniform, all the time not sleeping or bathing. Yes, the female leader did wear a campaign hat for "dress" times, especially for colors in them morning. Then we all changed to "class B's" for the activities, then back to "class A's" for evening meal.

As an instructor, you will be setting the tone of the course to the students. Since you must have taken wood badge already, you should be aware that there is a lot about the uniform helping to build the sense of belonging. The campaign hat, beads, and position insignia, were the only things that distinguished the students from the staff.

Not only did our staff wear campaign hads, but all also wore the red woolrich jacshirt.

As for cost, forget the "official BSA" hat, and check on the net for a less expensive one. Prior to this sites problems with it's catalog sales, I purchased mine for $29, not much more than many people pay for an official NFL, NBA, or pro baseball logo hat.

The jac-shirt is a significantly differant matter. Mine will have to be custom made, a 60 chest, with 39" arms. I know of no alternatives for this.

As for the wearing of a had, any hat worn by a male can be worn by a female. The insignia guide makes no distinction of sex when it discusses headgear (1997-1999, p.3, final paragraph). It mentions that the Adult Universal Hat Pin may be worn on the campaign had and the expedition had.

Paul Johnson

Perhaps this is a dumb query for you old woodbadgers out there. However, I have been pondering what to do for my ceremony.

This last Thursday I completed my ticket. I am involved in the district at 4 levels now, District committee member, Troop Committee Chair, Cubmaster, and Webelos Den Leader.

The boys of the Pack, whom I have been associated with for almost 5 years, would not be any more interested than they are of FOS (age related apathy :-).

My troop currently consists of 2 active boys and 5 adults. It is less than 2 years old, and even our Court of Honor was rather anticlimatic.

Now district runs hot and cold, with as many as 45 people attending the first training session last year, to as few as 10. Our district covers an area almost as big as Rhode Island! Most of the people who attended my class were from this district, however some came almost 400 miles to attend Woodbadge.

I have been considering having the beading at the Fall Camporee. That would be a weekend event, and the staff from South Dakota and Nebraska could possibly attend, as well as my friends from WB.

Please let me know what you think,

YIS, Paul Johnson, W5-638-00, Eagle

There are several things that this topic brings up.

1) Slower Scouts. If they cannot be included, there is a problem with the troop. If the older boys want to participate in the "High Adventure" programs, great. However, that is not the intent of a regular BSA troop.

In my Hunter Safety courses, we have always taught "The slowest person determines the pace, and the one in most need of a rest determines when to rest". Every troop is going to consist of both top athletes and couch potatos. We need to encourage the couch potatos to get involved, and leaving them behind at ANY TIME will only discourage them.

2) Electronic Communications. Western Wyoming is EXTREMELY rugged, with literaly hours of air time for rescue helicopters to get to many sites. In the last year, I have listened to several air rescues that would have ended in the death of the victim without both cell phone and a GPS. Unless you live in major mountain ranges with lots of wilderness areas (black timber), you may not be able to comprehend the problems associated with distance and difficult terrain.

Although walkie-talkies may not be needed, they would be a benefit to keep seperate patrols in communication. Only the adults with the patrol or patrol leader should carry it.

Cell phones are mandatory on all of out outings, again because of the great distances involved, and few telephones out in the unpopulated areas. We prefer to have 2 in case one does not work.

I agree that every person on the outing should know where they are on the map, but that does not mean they can give sufficient directions to the air crew or sheriffs office to get transportation to the necessary location.

Just my thoughts,

Paul Johnson

The only disagreement I have with Oldgreyeagle's last comment is in regard to when we have to fight government based discrimination.

Only in that case should we look to governement to help our "fight" to remain as we are.

Here in Lander, many dens meet in the schools, and if the bans on using school property for scout meetings in the east hold, then that may not be an option.

For ONLY cases where governmental agencies (local, state, or federal) attempt to restrict the meeting of any scouting group, we do need to have the protection.

If I have said this before, I apologize for the redundency.

Remember the words of BP - "Scouting is FUN with a PURPOSE".

1 - What is the fun? That is the outdoor activities we get the boys involved in. Scouting uses outdoor skills and activities as a method of developing boys into productive young men.

2 - What is the PURPOSE? Teamwork, leadership, citizenship, etc. It is not learning to tie any of the many knots out there. They are just a tool. I could probably teach a monkey to tie most of the knots we use, but what would be the purpose? In my Webelos Den and in my Troop, I have always let the boys know that there is more to the activity than just fun. Have fun, but LEARN from the activity.

If I learned anything at Wood Badge, it was that the task of learning the knots (or whatever) was not the point of the exercise. It was getting everyone involved and being a team.

Paul Johnson

Regarding the CCC, it is made up of 2 staff, and 1 parent, and principal from each school within the district, as well as 2 "district employees" and 2 school board members.

The purpose of the CCC is to review changes proposed to the curricula within the district, ensure that it meets state standards, and when it is acceptable, reccomend it to the school board. This saves the school board a lot of work.

Here, in Wyoming, home schoolers must have approval from the district. They must present the curricula and, once approved, the students are required to take the same "standard" tests at the same grades as in the public schools. If the student is failing the standard tests, then they are required to register in either a public or private school. (There are 3 private schools in our county, larger than the state of Rhode Island)

Although serving on the CCC is relatively "easy", we do run into the usual controversies, especially in "health" and a few other topics.

We also ran into a major conflict when the state declared that it would be raising standards for graduation. There are a number of parents (and a few staff) that deal with "normal" kids who do not apply themselves that want a lowering, not raising of standards for a diploma.

This is probably a "done deal" with a raising of the standards (math, reading, science, etc.) to recieve a diploma.

As for homeschool of "special" students, especially those with a mental or psychological impairment, I think it is a good idea. This will give them the 1-1 attention that ensures the best possible success. (Assuming the parent is capable!) Especially if they have the network you do there. And utilize the area resources.

As of last month, I became the Cubmaster for our pack. For this last month, I wore 5 hats - Tiger group coach, Webelos Den Leader, Cubmaster, Troop Committee Chair, District Committee Member.

God bless,

Paul Johnson

Paul Johnson

KD - Being a member of the District Curriculum Coordinating Council, having regular contact with several differant parents who homeschool, and having considered it myself (my disableing conditions are too severe for the day-to-day rigors of home school), I know a fair bit about home school.

> Just wondering...how much do you know about homeschoolers?

Unfortunately that is not a rumor, but a fact here. The homeschoolers here GENERALLY meet with each other once a month. One of the mothers was very rude to the new den leader for daring to PHONE her to let her know about a scout activity - it took too much time away from her kids, and the only contact she wanted was via e-mail, which the new leader did not have!

I realise that this woman is an exception, however when she shows up to a meeting, she is a distraction (she always has her infant with, and cannot do anything with her son because the infant is used to the constant attention).

>In our area, there seems to be a prevailing attitude that homeschooling parents keep their kids in the home all day, away from other kids and adults.

When you mention that the "difficulty associating" was an age issue, I was speaking relative to only other Tigers. I have been a Tiger coach for 4 years. 2 with my own sons, and 2 without any of my family there. I also have several years tutoring the same age children, as well as extensive education with human development. One child obviously had spent almost no time with anyone but his family. The other had some outside contact and adapted much more quickly.

Now to your concerns about the other parents or leaders thinking your sons have advanced too fast. The reason I have been named Cub Leader of the Year in the past was due to the involvement of my den boys. I have a better than 90% advancement (only 1 boy in each of Wolf and Bear did not advance, and they could not get a parent to help with the home based items). My Webelos had all earned 10 requirements inside 7 months of promotion to Webelos, and only 1 boy is likeley not to earn all 20. Again, this boy has no parental involvement, and must depend on his grandmother.

IF the boys are being counseled by registered MB counselors, doing all the work, and learning the material, don't worry about the other leaders. If your school district allows you to use the MB items in your curricula, good. Keep up the good work.

Paul Johnson

This year I had 2 homeschool Tiger cubs. They had some difficulty initially adapting to the social setting of multiple boys and parents, however it did not take them long to be active in the den.

Paul

This one CAN be a "catch 22". If the boy is quilty (by his own admission outside of court), he should withdraw. If he will not admit to the charges, and others have seen him using illegal drugs and DUI, that is when a legal problem can develop. If anything, I fear that the legal implications can be similar to the homosexual leader issue. Parents who want their son to be an eagle have been known (personally to me) to pressure eagle boards with legal challenges to subjective assessments.

Is he of high moral character? It appears not. Like others said before, this appears to be an issue for the DE or even the Council Executive.

If he is found guilty in court, the problem is solved. Then there is an outside body stating he is guilty of the crime (and obvious moral problems), and not an acceptable eagle scout.

The issue to me here is this: Can the boy benefit from continuing in scouts, or will his continued association be a problem for other boys? This is the boy who needs good leaders and friends to keep him away from the things that brought him to the problems. Yet it is easier to be pulled down than to bring someone else up to a "higher moral plain".

There is no easy answer. Please keep us informed as to the outcome, both legal and what happens to this young man.

Paul Johnson

As eisley has pointed out, what has this boy done to earn his eagle?

The last eagle board I know that was NOT successful by the boy, was one where the PARENTS did all the work, and the boy did almost nothing of the project.

The project is a time for the BOY to show leadership. The BOY is to be the one calling, organizing, etcetera. If the mom and dad did the work, I do not believe the boy earned his badge.

Yarrow - "Mom, Dad, and sister worked really hard on the project along with an few church members and very few (count them on one hand) scouts. If it were not for a call from his mom on one Saturday, asking me to bring my boy and any friends he could, there would have been no scouts that day."

As for the paperwork, that is going to be a lifetime thing, and he needs to learn to take RESPONSIBILITY for anything that needs done.

"Guess he is getting bogged down in the paperwork "

If he cannot get it done on his own, is he ready for Eagle? Is not part of the Eagle showing initiative, responsibility, and the ability to lead?

"Don't think he'd get much done on his own"

Is that not supposed to be a characteristic of all scouts?

"but he is a boy of good character."

With this you have hit the nail on the head. He needs more age under his belt to truely earn the Eagle. Just because you can somehow complete all the requirements does not mean your have really earned it.

As a Hunter Education Instructor, I have had several students "pass" the written test, only to show their lack of accomplishment with their attitude. They failed the class until they can get some maturity. It sounds like this young man needs the same.

"I think there is much to be gained from maturity and that, frequently although not always, comes from a little age"

Paul Johnson

A lot of how to handle the problem is specific to the individual boy. If the problem is "emotional" or a REAL medical problem (mental retardation, ADHD, etc.), you and your leaders need training in learning how to deal with these young men.

As the father of 2 boys, one with ADHD, I can tell you it can get very trying. The best thing to do is set limits, and not allow anything beyond the limits. If pushed, either a "time out" or even sending him home (since we meet in my home, I send him to his room - no tv, no games).

With one extremely disruptive boy, I sent a note home with him that he could not attend any more den meetings without a responsible adult. This helped for quite a while.

If it is a case of boys getting out of hand, maybe it is time to "lay down the law" - however it must be with their input. Let them start making the rules of behavior, along with the consequences (within reason!). Make suggestions to them as they are making these rules, if necessary adding why a rule (do not lean back in the chair because of the injury potential - remember Charlie last week?) or that it is a sponsoring organization rule (clean up and put all chairs back when done).

Your PLC would be a good place to address this issue as well. Remind them that this is not a gang of hoodlums. Ask them how their behavior is an example of the scout law/oath/motto/slogan. Find ways for them to see where the bad behavior us a problem.

Remember that they are boys and do need to let of some steam, but in a safe and appropriate manner.

Paul Johnson

I heartily agree with jmquillan. There are the few exceptional young men (and for that matter young ladies) that show exemplillary (sp) personal conduct, responsibility, leadership, and citizenship that deserve every recognition possible.

The sad truth is that this is the exception, not the rule. Living in an area with 4 troops (2 mormon, 2 non-mormon church sponsored), I have seen several questionalble eagles. There conduct in the community, and obvious "paperwork problems" (feel free to read EVERYTHING into this) has caused a number of boys to quit scouting because of the lack of values shown by some leaders.

Assuming the lad you mentioned is of the high character you suggest, I too laud him. I have never asked a boy to "slow down", just the reverse, encouraging him all the way.

In my Webelos den, we will bridge in November, 6 months after the boys finish 4th grade. They have all earned compass emblems and points, 75% have earned the cubscout "World Conservation Crest". THe only thing that may inhibit their promotion as a den is 2 boys who have not visited a scout camp. If the boys do not all accomplish all 20 Activity badges, it will be because of lack of parental involvement in the "Family" badges (Travel and Family Member".

2 of these young men have strong opportunities to reach eagle at an early age because they desire it. THe others will work at it, and probably make it at about 16 (I hope). I will do nothing to discourage them, however I will do my best to instill in them the things I have learned as an adult scouter and from wood badge (Eagle, W5-638-00).

My biggest concern will always be with "paper eagles". The young men I have seen from the mormon troops have great difficulty in seperating their religion and religious activity from Boy Scouts. Too them there is no differance between the "Young Mens Quorum" and their troop. This became obvious to me after sitting on 2 eagle boards.

Some of the things I have heard from parents include - No driver's license/hunting license/varsity sports until you attain your eagle. What is their motivation?

Paul

As a Hunter Education volunteer instructor/coordinator, (what else would a scouter do in his "spare" time), I have a number of "matchless" ways of starting a fire, without liquid fuels.

Most use a method of sparking such as a knive to a flint, flint and steel, knive to back of high carbon knife. I also especially like "out of fuel" cigarette lighters. Anything that will throw some sparks.

the following are items that will work well - some faster than others.

1) magnesium stick - fastest of all, burns the hottest. Make a small pile of magnesium shavings (about 2 inches in my experience) with other tinder around, and kindling close by. Spark into the pile, and carefully start feeding the fire.

2) Cotton balls - Real cotton, no synthetics. Spread out like a nest (I have included a small amount of candle shavings to help it some). A spark in the center of the nest should have a good fire very quickly. Add tinder and kindling.

3) 4-0 Steel wool (0000) - Same as cotton balls, but do not add wax. Can also be started with a 9 volt battery.

4) Char cloth (charred cotton) with flint and steel. This is the mountain man method. Much more work, however very satisfying. Make a "nest" of VERY dry grasses, on other tinder and kindling. Spark into the char cloth with the flint and steel until there is a "glow" from a spark in the cloth. Blow on this (cupped in your hands) until the grass starts to burn, then place in prepared firepit, and add kindling.

The old "fire saw" uses esentially the same method, and takes more experience.

Paul Johnson

Lander, WY

The minimum time for an eagle scout, as the previous poster pointed out, is about 2 years. 1 month for tenderfoot (physical fitness requirement), 4 months for star, 6 months for life, and 6 months for eagle. The last three all require leadership positions lasting the 4 or 6 months.

Did this young man learn how to be a leader, or did his parents (or others) just sign off on papers. There are too many units that want to be "Eagle Mills" and produce boys that have not learned the true meaning of scouting. Do you remember your Basic Training (Boy or Cub) and the characteristics of a boy at certain ages? Before you congratulate him, think about where he is at in his maturity.

We, as leaders, should be showing them it is not how fast you can tie a bowline, but how you can learn to teach someone else.

It is not the number of campouts you have been on, but learning to enjoy nature, and how to conserve our planet.

Remember what BP said - "Scouting is fun with a purpose". That purpse is to develop a well rounded citizen, who is able to lead others, and cares about everything around him.

As for age, I think the numbers show that few scouts who reach 16 without making eagle, rarely make it. The aroma of gasoline and perfume seem to shut off the scout and turn on a monster. Do not think I believe we should either give up or ignore the older boy. That is when our Varsity and Venture programs come in.

I absolutely agree with everyone that this is nowhere near the level of an eagle project. I see it as a tenderfoot to first class service project, and hope that it incorporates Webelos (even Cubs of all ranks!).

I have been thinking about what one person said about it "being in the way". The individuals I know who are not interested will walk on by. The scouts should not be out "pulling people in", rather they should be politely greeting, and making the offer of refreshments. I suggest also having Koolaide, or other beverage for children and people who do not drink coffee.

Speaking of children, why not have an area where the older boys could spend some time playing with the children of travelers and give them a break? We have all had the experience of spending long hours in a car hearing "Are we there yet?". This would be an excellant example, and possibly result in the parents investigating scouts for their children.

Paul Johnson

Cubmaster, Troop Committee Chair

I have to disagree with p_swigs. I find idea of coffee and information to travelors is ALWAYS helpful. This is often what states pay people to do in major reststops, so why would it be in the way?

As a community service project, is may be small, however it is the small things that make the differance. Opening a door, a friendly greeting, helping with a package. Do not forget, the service that started USA scouting would not be considered community service either by this persons standards.

There is nothing wrong with giving out information about scouting, or even the "mock camp site", especially for tourists, as long as it is not blocking travel from parking to the rest facilities.

Personally, I would eliminate the "donation bucket" altogether, as it would appear to be a fundraiser for scouting no matter what you put on it.

For many boys, this may be the first thing they have done for someone besides family. Give them the opportunity to start small. This particular service has been done by many groups, including Lions club, VFW, American Legion, etc. at various rest stops along I-80 in the last 10 years.

Paul Johnson

Lander, WY

As a hunter education instructor, avid hunter and fisherman, and lover of meat on the table, I also know that hunters have spent more money on wildlife than ALL the "anti"s put together.

It is depressing that these people have never taken their arguments to their logical conclusion (with very few exceptions). The only way to do as they want is to destroy the entire human population. A few antihunters have actually taken to shooting at hunters during hunting season.

They condemn leather, so wear synthetics. Of course they are made from oil, and oil is to be banned.

We cannot plant cotton because it disrupts the ecosystem, and we cannot cut down trees to use for the same reason. Hmm There goes all their clothes and papers.

Greenpease uses old ships, and a lot of fuel oil, to fight fishing. Peta and HSUS wants to ban all farming, so forget wool.

Can someone tell me what is left?

Paul Johnson