ThunderFox

Pack212,

What do the other patrols think of the NSP's and their role in the troop. Odds are they do not like them.

If they don't then changing is easy if you have the SPL and the PLC come up with a plan for change. It will be their plan and they will work it. It may require some judicial hint planting. They will probably decide that they will start with assigning themselves as a tent buddy to a newbie on the first few campouts to show the new guys the ropes in an 1 on 1 manner. Of course the Buddy patrol will have some of the familiar Webelos as the newbies and in 3 or 4 months this group will be the basis of a new natural patrol and not a NSP.

It will allow you to never have another NSP again. Your current Scouts will see the opportunity for brotherhood and/or leadership and volunteer to be buddies. And, boys with that motivation should be the buddies so they will do a good job.

SHORTRIDGE,

You are like a polititian, if you do not agree with something you attack it and its supporters. If it's actually right, you attack it even harder! You keep attacking, quoting and restating as you ignore our answers. And then you ask for answers.

Well sir, those answers ain't gonna change because they are the rules with some folks personal view embellishments tacked on, admittedly. And until you get some new questions, I'm done answering your questions.

Shortridge, you jumped in here on the attack without a statement of what it is you are precisely espousing, you might want to try that and leave the hostility out so your views can be understood.

SHORTRIDGE,

I am an adult, 65 years of age, well past my majority and living self-supported for 47 years and I do not need your assistance in expressing myself. This following phrase never crosed my lips nor my keyboard save to cite them here:

"Thunder Fox and other members of the purist school would seem to argue that we're not allowed to provide them with information"

Sir, you misquote me!

"Thunder Fox and other members of the purist school would seem to argue that we're not allowed to provide them with information"

The problem is there are those in the OA who when given an inch understand the inch given to justify taking a mile. These are the folks who will destroy the OA they purport to love, revere and cherish. That is why the rules are there. You, personally, might deal effectively with parents with tact and understanding in the situation but what assurance do YOU have that ALL chapter advisors will deal in good faith if found in this situation?

I do not understand the lack of OA adults in this forum who know the sensitivity of this issue who and are mute about protecting the Order. Please consider this; we have several hundred Councils in BSA, each Council has a Lodge with up to 10 chapters, so maybe a thousand or two thousand chapters. What are the odds that there will NOT be some sort of perceived scandal that will put the BSA in a negative position nationally over this very issue in the near future if each chapter is allowed to judge how much "secrecy" is enough? Because that will be what the parents will claim to the news media. (I DID NOT say OA is a secret organization).

I contend that the perception of wrongdoing is as damaging as wrongdoing in fact to a youth organization. The sad part, is even though it would not be true, many parents with members would take them out and worse, thousands of new Cub Scouts would never be allowed to join for many years because their parents responded to the "perceived" threat to their child.

The hundreds of thousands of future members of our BSA deserve the best efforts of today's leaders to safeguard the BSA so it will be there for them.

KC9DDI,

It is never acceptable to ask a parent to back-off if they are wanting to exercise their parental rights. If they are wanting to exercise a personal choice that is not allowed by BSA rules, they may not do so.

KC9DDI,

Many years ago my troop wrote a "Troop Committe Guide & Parents Handbook" that is shared with parents of boys condidering joining our troop. As titled, it not only explains what parents might have concerns about, it goes on to explain why they should be involved and because it has the workings of the troop committee in it, they can see where they might fit in based upon their time and talents.

More importantly, soon after being given the book, we have later a follow-up meeting where philosophy of the troop is explained and there is an in depth Q&A session with SM and TCC together.

The book proved so successfulful, quite a few troops have adopted it. But is not just the book, the book helps share the philosophy of how our troop runs and WHY! We make sure parents understand that Scouting is a Life Science Education Program and yes, many of its methods are cumbersome; but thay are cumbersome to extract the maximum learning experience for an eleven to eighteen year old boy.

We explain to parents there is the regular way, the Army way and the Scout way. Ultimately, the Scouting way has returned far better results than the other two for eleven to eighteen year old boys for over 100 years.

To bring this explanation into focus, if our parents' book did not cover the question at hand and explain it, several opportunites were given for group meetings to explain whatever event or situation was coming so we did not have the problem of having to man the battlestations to restore calm and order. After being in the troop a few months, parents began to trust us because everything in the book was accurate and what ever was said was always true.

There are very few years of my life that I have not been a member of Scouting, most of them my first 8 years. Scouting gave me a code that helped me understand what I was being told at Sunday School. In high school, it gave me a compass while so many were groping for who they were.

The Oath & Law were real to me and kept me out of trouble. I was told to "Run the Twelve", go through the twelve points of the law and see if what I was considering doing violated any one of the twelve; if it did, don't do it! Scouting gave me the tools to do and succeed and also to cope with failure. It gave me role models to admire and help me understand my relationship with my father.

It was a special moment for me when Secretary of the Navy, John Connelly pinned my Quarter Master Rank on my tunic. And then Scouting gave me the opportunity to pay back in a small way all the wonder and blessings Scouting brought to my life by being an adult leader.

Believe it or not, there really is a moment you can observe that occurs when a boy is trying to do something he was just taught and all of a sudden he gets it and that emotion flashes across his face. That is a deeply moving moment I love to see, it's part of a Scoutmaster's pay.

So please excuse my fervor in seeing this topic as having the potential to damage Scouting. The OA cannot exist without Scouting but Scouting can be fine without the OA. OA Advisors please do not make this a deciding point.

If an established religion objects to the Boy Scouts, the OA need not worry about objections from that quarter as their followers will not join BSA so OA membership, ceremony and ritual are moot points.

What is under discussion is parental or clergy PERCEPTION by individuals who do have boys and/or followers in the program who may have bad information or no information. If these folks, who already are suspecting something is up, encounter what seems an organized campaign to thwart their investigation or concerns, they will see this as proof that something negative is really going on.

Creative accomodations can alleviate their fears and still preserve the "confidentiality" of the ceremony. Staunch objection and subverting the rules could be a Council or National "Black Eye".

Please remember, in situations of litigation, if the leaders in question are found by BSA to NOT be 100% in compliance with BSA Rules, Guidelines and Policies, the BSA provides 0% legal support nor financial defense support.

So all you guys who claim having parents attend will ruin the experience are admitting you are very poor planners and cannot seclude the parents shielding the partticpants from knowing they are there?

You are just throwing up your arms in defeat????

Good, now assign the task to your Boy-Run Youth Leadership; they can accomplish this in a snap!! Your status quo is not their staus quo unless you have soured the barrel!

Sadly, this discourse has continued for years with no resolution when there are really only two positions espoused or expressed herein.

A. I will honor my oath as a Scout leader and follow the rules.

B. I will violate my oath as a Scout Leader and do what I want to do.

So take your pick, do what's right or teach the Scouts rules are meant to be broken and your oath means nothing.

Mr. Boyce,

You are reading between the cracks in the sidewalks and not between the cracks in any of my comments nor anyone elses when you state we want to be broadcasting the guts of the organization to anyone", nor did we talk about hazing.

We are focusing on the BSA rule that states parents may attend OA ceremonies and meetings and sets their right to do so when many OA Adults have decided to circumvent this rule to the best of their ability.

My impressions of the OA are not formed from merely one or two instances; they have been formed over 50 years of participation and observation.

Last sentence above should read:

If the troop those adults come from are Not boy run, how can the chapter magically become boy run??

Mr. Boyce,

In my over 50 years in Scouting, I have never heard of a Pack or Troop breaking up, dissolving etc. because the Scouts cannot get along. Boys can find away to get along AND most often, do the right thing. It's always adults who cause the discord.

The "restrict parents attending commentors here" have a "Vision" of this secret Order that is illegal in their organization, so they rationalize to make it so. They are willing to risk the very existence of their beloved Order to do things their way against the rules. Some, as stated in this forum, see absolutely no danger to the existence of the Order because, "we are just doing ......." Sadly, it is this rationalization, and too much adult "management" that has caused virtually every OA Chapter I have been a member of to sadly fall short of its boy-run potential! Boy-run is just a slogan in too many OA Chapters rather than a reality. If the troop those adults come from, how can the chapter magically become boy run??

"Lesser mortals have less Forum posts.:-)"

Ahhh.....another member of the Quantity Over Quality Club!

I was not aware that Scouting or the OA had lesser mortals as members. Not sure I know what constitutes a lesser mortal.

As to my criteria of judgement, I have none. Although, I do have subscribed standards of behavior and they are the Scout Oath & Law, the rules of the BSA, the laws of the land and the Ten Commandments and then a bit of common sense.

I would say a Chapter Kegger among other similar things would indicate that the chapter leadership should not be members of OA and Scouting. The adult malfeasence is self evident.

Of the five OA chapters I have experience with, only one was boy run; and the boys running it did not belong in Scouting at all.

When you ask questions of a Chapter Chief about the chapter and whats happening in the chapter and every answer is ask the chapter advisor, its not boy-run!

I have no concept as to how my membership in the OA has any bearing on the point at hand; Parents attending OA ceremonies. Seems like another angle from which to cloud the issue by kicking up dust.

Youth Protection Training admonishes us to not put ourselves in a position that has ANY POSSIBLE appearance of impropriety. "Mom and Dad, we are taking your boy off into the woods at night for a "confidendial" ceremony and you can't come." Well folks, be careful who you treat that way, you may end up in court, jail or both. All it takes is an accusation against the OA and all adult Scout leaders in the country are guilty by association and Scouting will suffer.

Brotherhood,

Be sure and wear your White Robe of Honor and a Pious face as you break the rules with a clear conscious. When the OA gets disbanded, maybe you will be asked to pose in your Robe and be the posterchild martyr of the OA!

All you "Ban The Parents" guys out there should see the smoke signals in the sky! One of you is going to cause an National Media Incident and BSA will have to disband the OA. It only takes one. Start deciding now if you will be part of an outlaw OA or finally give in and follow the rules.

Brotherhood,

You have just compared oranges to armadillo's and turned it into bubble gum. Resort to enapt allegories all you want; you are still wrong. Discouraging parents from attending at a proper and secluded spot is not in the spirit of the rules, nor in the Spirit of Scouting. This is worse than quoting Wikipedia as an Official source of facts about Scouting! Admit it, you do not like the rule so you will say anything to make yourself believe violating the rules is in the Scouts best interest. Its NOT!

Troops never disband because Scouts cannot get along; they disband because adults cannot get along; and now, I have had an enlightening moment! What is wrong with the OA is way too many adults who cannot keep the promise they signed on their BSA Appication to follow the rules. They run the OA to suit themselves and, in doing so, dishonor those OA adults who understand the BSA & OA are for the kids and follow the rules.

Sorry, Wikipedia is not an authority. Its full of opinion and mis-information. What you quoted contained subjective commentary and only states the author's views;i.e. Not Facts!

ACCO,

A young man's peers voted him to have this honor. Ceremonies and honors such as these are seen as rites of passage for a young man by many parents and they wish to freeze their son's honor in their memories; maybe even share them years later. It's like parents who attend football, basebal, ball d' jour who could care less about the sport itself but want their son to know he has support. I was one of those kids whose parents never came to anything if it was not some achievement at school. The Secretary of the Navy presented my Quartermaster Award but my folks did not attend. Obviously, they never attended any OA anything for me.

So what about the Scout who wants his parents there? How comfortable will they feel after someone "discourages" them? Are we supposed to harm the Scout just because we think differently? How unilateral!

Old Ox,

Whether or not the OA is or is not a "Secret Organization" is not a contention put forth in this whole thread. The problem is the "appearance" conveyed by discouraging the attendance of parents. You know as well as I do just the accusation of being a "Secret Organization" damages the image of Scouting no matter the reason. Were a group of parents make such an accusation of your lodge, would you enjoy standing in front of news cameras to explain what the hell were you thinking???

Dear Old_OX_Eagle83

If non OA members attending ceremonies has caused loss of membership in your chapter or lodge, there is something else terribly wrong with your chapter or lodge.

Yes, lets all band together to subvert the rules so we may keep the status quo we like regardless what the rules say.

Lets also have the boys be the front line of subterfuge so adults will feel guilty about asking for their parental rights.

Our opinion is more important than BSA policy so we will establish BSU, Boy Scouts of Us! Its no matter that it will be Kaos with no official handbook, Charter, Guidelines or rules as we just make up our own rules off the cuff. This will be difficult but when the OA, or even the BSA, is banned for our actions, it will be our only choice.

Funny how we Americans want adherence to the Constitution, rules of law, strong professional police departments and freedom for all, yet when it comes to facet of US Scouting, we will subvert, conceal, violate, deny parental rights and even violate the rules and the TRUST of the very organization we purport to love, cherish and support.

We all signed an oath to follow the rules and policies of the BSA, suck it up and honor your oath or get out and start the BSU!!!!!