thriftyscout

No, in my opinion it was not. I have found, however, that being right or wrong is usually not the critical thing in these kinds of situations. Do you want to work with this SM or not? Insisting that you are right and he is wrong is not going to be helpful. Find common ground if there is any, and work from there. If there is no common ground, then you are probably in for a tough time.

I can only answer from the SM side but here are my thoughts.

Boy led is somewhat unnatural for adults, especially if they are parents. Training is often needed to overcome our natural tendencies. Is your SM trained? Does he acknowledge that PM and boy led is a goal for the Troop? As far as threatening to quit, would this be good or bad for the Troop?

Ultimately you cannot control your SM but you can control your actions and reactions. Actions speak louder than words, your best bet is to take the initiative and make sure your Patrols are ahead of the SM when it comes to the kinds of things that are important to him. Take uniforms for example, how did the Scouts fare on the inspection? If they all looked good, it is easier to make the case that you have the situation in hand. If they were a sloppy mess, it is more difficult.

Sometimes you have to pick your battles. People can be stubborn, once he called for the uniform inspection, it was going to be almost impossible to stop. Creating a cofrontation isn't going to help the situation. My suggestion is to sit down with your SM and talk about how he thinks the Troop is doing. Are there areas he feels need work? Offer to help on those areas or ask his advice on improvement. Show that he can accomplish his vision for the Troop by working through you. Share your vision of the Troop, are you headed in the same direction? Most of all create an atmosphere of being on the same team, not at odds.

Good Luck

Several commenters on the 300 feet thread mentioned independent Patrol Outings. I have heard this can be a BSA sanctioned event but I don't see how that is possible. My understanding is that there must be a Tour Permit to be BSA sanctioned and any Tour Permit Application I have seen requires two deep leadership at least 21 etc. etc.

I don't see where there is anything to stop a group of older Scouts from going on an outing independent of adults, but I question how it could be BSA sanctioned. I would appreciate a little more information on how a Patrol would set this up as a BSA sanctioned event. I think it is a great idea, but would like more information before proposing it to our Scouts and Committee.

Thank you.

GPS is a great tool for orienteering/hiking/etc but it has limitations. The fine print for every GPS I have ever seen contains some sort of warning about not being a substitute for paper maps/compass. Blindly following a GPS on a major outing is a good way to get lost (or mislocated for those who never get lost).

One of these days, I'll have to have a Scout show me how to use one!!!

Eagle92,

I will keep an eye out for that SMHB version. I'm also looking at Kudu.net for "vintage" information. What do you do with the Scouts that don't have enough of their patrol going on a campout?

Beavah,

Can a patrol on its own get a tour permit or is this something they would do as friends outside of Scouting? I am trying to sort out what is just different in "modern" Scouting as opposed to what is no longer allowed.

Thanks to all for the advice.

(This message has been edited by thriftyscout)(This message has been edited by thriftyscout)

Thanks for the additional tips. As to why aren't all of our patrols doing this? Like I said in my OP, I had never heard of this concept before reading about it here in these forums. My own Scout career didn't go much past AOL so I don't have much Scout background to draw from.

I became an ASM when my son bridged into the Troop. After about a year the SM left and I was asked to take the position. I first read about the Patrol Method in an older SM handbook. I went to all the position specific training which discussed the Patrol Method but IMHO doesn't really provide the tools to make it work. We have been working to implement it over the last few years. We have made progress but we are not yet where I would like to see it. I think 300 feet is the next step to get us there.

I can see alot of where Kudu is coming from. I don't think the SM training lends itself to really establishing the Patrol Method. I don't think many Scout camps are set up for Patrol vs. Troop camping. I know it will be difficult to pull this off at our next scheduled campout because of the facilities.

I would have been happy to try this with our other non-NSP but they did not have enough attending (2) and were blended in with a NSP for this campout. (Ad Hoc patrols are another major challenge for PM) It would have been difficult to have them 300 feet from our Troop site of tents and cabin and 300 feet from the Venture Patrol.

As usual, the more I learn, the more I learn how much there is to learn. 300 feet is a great tool and I look forward to using it more in the future.

I had never heard of the 300 foot concept before joining this forum a few weeks ago. Our Venture Patrol did the 300 foot concept this past weekend and the results were very promising. The Scouts loved it, the adults stayed out of their way, if they had any problems they worked them out themselves.

The younger Scouts were in awe and are now motivated to get their patrols ready for that kind of independence. The Venture Patrol not only took care of themselves but fed lunch to 14 Webelos/4 parents who accompanied the Troop for their Troop overnight. I can't think of a better marketing tool for those boys than seeing this group of teens in the woods with no visible adult supervison. (I did take several walks to their camp, the only problem I saw they had solved on their own before I could even comment.)

We have been working toward the ideal of boy led Patrol Method with mixed success for several years. 300 feet is just the concept we need to make the next step. Thank you to this forum for all the great ideas. I look forward to learning more from all of you.

YIS,

Chuck

We have used the jetboils at Philmont and in the snow (probably mid 20s F) with no problem. I can't attest to any higher or colder. They do work with other brand isobutane (I have used the red MSRs with no problem) canisters. Jetboil makes a kit that allows you to use regular pots and also gives it a wider base. We primarily use them to boil water for dehydrated meals during HA trips.

I would have a difficult time limiting the number of new Scouts. We have 21 boys starting between September and November(6 recruited, 15 bridging). We had 30 on our roster (about 25 active) at the end of the summer. It will be a challenge but I would rather work that out than turn a boy away.

If a unit would like to try the placemat thank you/advertising, I have added a free placemat template to my website under the fundraising heading.

www.thriftyscout.yolasite.com

Feel free to try it as part of your next fundraising dinner or breakfast.

Good Luck

National would be well advised to look at the volunteer fire service as a model of how to maintain professional standards in a volunteer service. While rules vary from state to state, there are national standards in place created by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association).

Most firefighters have some level of NFPA certification. In some states a certain level of continuing education (CE) is required to maintain that certification. The individual has some choice in what kind of CE they want to earn depending upon their needs and interests. There may be some baseline of subject matter that is mandatory but a 15 year veteran would not go back to basic fire training to recertify.

It would be fairly simple to create a short, online, and mandatory refresher course that would cover any recent rule, policy, or procedure changes. Then let veteran leaders select training of interest. First aid, CPR, kayaking, scuba certification, etc. Basically anything that helps ensure that they are the "qualified supervision" needed for an outing.

Just my $.02

DWS,

I like that one, I'll pass that on to my drumline daughter, and be sure to duck.

TS

I have been following this thread with interest for a while. As far as standardization goes, be careful what you wish for. I would compare it to the difference between a local restaurant and a national chain. A Big Mac is a Big Mac pretty much anywhere you go. Trying a local diner is more of a risk, it may not be to your taste, it may even be downright nasty. In many cases, however, the local fare is above and beyond what a national chain can provide.

I think BSA gives us a good recipe to work with regarding advancement and program. Everyone involved with Scouting is going to provide their own seasoning to some degree. I think it is a strength of the program.

I appreciate the distinction between leadership and scoutcraft. The best swimmer does not necessarily make the best lifeguard. If he doesn't watch his water, enforce the rules, communicate, etc. he is not going to be a good lifeguard. But yes, he does need to be a strong swimmer.

The question is, if you move away from scoutcraft, are you still Scouting? Youth can learn leadership from sports, JROTC, even from being a gang member. Scouting is meant to instill values, using scoutcraft as a means to that end. What about the Scout who doesn't like to camp? Is there a place for him in today's Scouting?

My 2 cents on tents:

I have never gotten wet in a "modern" tent unless I did someting dumb like leave a flap open, ground cloth sticking out etc.

For week long summer camp, I like to be able to stand up in the tent. I have used a Coleman family tent from a big box store once or twice a year for about ten years. The zipper gave out this year and I am considering just using the camp provided wall tents. I slept in one first/last night at Philmont last year but they don't have as many bugs as Ohio. About 1/3 to 1/2 of our Scouts use these tents at summer camp.

For backpacking I just bought an MSR Hubba Hubba (two person) which I used for our week at Isle Royale and weekends so far this year. I like two vestibules, two doors, and the head room. The rain fly needs stakes or something to spread out the vestibule but is otherwise self supported. I had been using a Eureka Timberline which is also a great tent (a little heavy for backpacking). Its zippers started to fail after 20 years of use but I certainly got my monies worth out of it.

Our Scouts use their own tents and I have seen a wide variety. Most are pretty good. Zippers seem to be the achilles heal but I think that is more of a care of use issue.

Suggestions that have worked well for our Troop:

Pre-cook the pasta a night or two ahead of time. Drain and put into zip lock bags and refrigerate. This really speeds things along on dinner night.

Thank companies/individuals that have provided financial or material support on placemats. They are simply printed on 11x17 copy paper. It may be an additional fundraiser for advertising depending upon your (or your SE's) interpretation of BSA fundraising policies.

Think about what to do with leftovers. We send it to a local homeless shelter. We have also considered freezing for an easy camp meal but the shelter is glad to have it.

Good Luck!

I like the wood gathering idea, but a game or some other distraction would also work well. I usually find it more effective to find something appropriate (yet enjoyable) to distract them away from the undesired behavior. In the long run I find it more effective to encourage/reward good behavior than to try and eliminate/punish the bad.(This message has been edited by thriftyscout)

How about the trailers with sponsor logos or placemat advertising at dinners?

Thanks for the input.

The idea to make this a POR has more to do with the "typical" Scout then those with special needs. I have been very proud of the boys willingness to help and am confident they would do so with or without it counting as a POR. As our Troop has grown we have more Scouts than "traditional" PORs so this seemed like a good way to expand the number of positions in a meaningful way.

It appears to me to be a meaningful leadership role but I see the point of it also being a good turn.

Hi Rob!

I'm still looking forward to the regular ones too.

Chuck

My son has been challenged by both autism and a peanut allergy, it is a difficult combination. I agree that it should not be a secret, it is a potentially deadly situation. While my son knows he cannot eat peanuts, he doesn't always ask about ingredients. He is not hypersensative so he is not going to react to a reasonably clean serving spoon.

He carries an epi pen and an antihistamine (Benedryl) in his pack but we have not had to use it on a campout. His patrol is aware of his allergy and where he carries his epi pen. They often come with a trainer pen which makes it easy to review with adults and Scouts. It is a good skill to know as there are many different allergies that may require an epi pen.

His allergist also filled out a Food Allergy Plan which spells out what to do for situation like suspected ingestion, hives, shortness of breath, etc. This should be with the Scouts epi pen and his medical forms. It takes some of the uncertainty out of how to handle the situation. For adults it is often more a fear of the unknown or doing something wrong.

As the SM, I have always been camping with him so it hasn't really been much of a burden to the rest of the Troop. Patrol shoppers are asked to check for ingredients and avoid peanut products, it is not that difficult. It is a good opportunity to review food labels which should be a part of the meal planning advancement requirement.

I would think that most Troops would want to make reasonable accomodations for dietary requirements. I look at it as somewhat of a balancing act between what accomodation the Troop should make vs. what the Scout family needs to provide. My son eats most meals/snacks with his patrol but always has some peanut free trail mix in case something is overlooked.

Our Troop offers a First Class in the first year type program to our New Scout Patrol. The NSP has a Troop Guide and an ASM assigned to help them. Most of our Scouts earn FCFY or are pretty close.

I have suggested to our SPL that he assign a Scout to assist our Special Needs Scouts with continuing towards FC. Would/could this be considered a Troop Guide or should it be a SM assigned leadership project?

Thanks in advance for you input,

Chuck

It is still kind of rough but it is located at:

www.thriftyscout.yolasite.com

Yola is a free site for building websites, fairly easy to use even for novices like myself.(This message has been edited by thriftyscout)

I have been an ADL, ASM, and now SM for about 5 years. I started with the Troop when my son bridged. He is finishing up his Eagle project and merit badges. My own experience as a Scout was much shorter - AOL and about a year of Boy Scouts.

I joined the forum recently to benefit from the experience and perspective of the virtual roundtable. Our troop has ranged from about 20 to 30 in the time I have been there (about 2/3 active). We recently recruited 6 new Scouts (No CS experience) and are looking at 15 Webelos bridging next month. This will take us to over 40 for the first time in my tenure. This is a great problem to have, but it is a challenge.

I am also interested in sharing information regarding special needs Scouts (my son has autism). We have several special needs Scouts (autism, asperger's, down's syndrome, etc.) within our Troop and I am always looking for new ideas.

I am also building a site called thrifty scout to suggest low cost options for equipping Scouts. I am seeing an increasing number of families struggling with costs and would like to help them.

I am looking forward to participating.

YIS,

Chuck