bkale

Question for the esteemed panel (be gentle please)

I was very saddened by all of the posts for the US Heritage Award problems (scam , etc). I really like the award since it is introducing a very broad age group of Scouts (and others that are not Scouts) to US history and some of our important facts about the birth of our country, our flag, and our leaders. As I was thinking this through, I was thinking bow great it would be to have a program that let the youth (boys and girls) earn medals and learn tons about our country and ourselves.

I was thinking that a four medal set would scratch my itch. The medals would be:

-US Heritage (obviously from a different vendor) - but the requirements are quite good

-Youth Freedom Award - based on learning about the struggles of many peoples (race and gender) throughout US history and the important contributions associated (to include maybe a couple of trips or interviewing people from other races/genders

-Citizenship - an award that took the participant thru many of the questions and activities that a person coming to our country has to go thru to earn the right to become a citizen - definitely having the person have 1st hand experience with different cultures and learning the great work and joy people that earn their citizenship have

-Service - A series of service projects and community outreach activities that let the person understand their community, their place in it and how important it is to stand up and help others in our country

And if the person earns all four medals, they can do some other final project and earn a sort of top capstone medal.

Now... I know the first response by this forum is that there is already Citizenship Merit Badges and belt loops... I guess I want the boys to do more. I would love to see this kind of program provide a framework for leaders to get their boys excited about being Americans.

I am just in the first thoughts on this program and am sortof excited about it... so it is time for the dose of realism from the forum.

Thoughts?

I like you all am very disappointed with the Nations Trail service/scam.

It is a real shame since the requirements are a very good set.

Here is a question for the forum... what if the requirements were kept but a new supplier for the medal is found? I have done some investigation and have found a way to have these medals made. What would people think about having a different (reliable) source at the same price?

I just HATE seeing this program that allows the boys to learn about our country die because of the supplier.. and I know medals excite the boys.

I am seriously thinking of jumping in this thing but would need some feedback from you all.... wife would kill me if I didn't...lol.. it is her seed money too.

Well.. thoughts?

I can tell you that this male scouter is fighting some serious tears right now.

I can remember all of the emotions of my Eagle Court of Honor (many years ago) and to have that extra emotion and internal burden to live up to the sacrificed son would have brought me to such great emotional tears I KNOW I couldn't have told the story of the sash to the crowd.

That is quite a young man described in the story. He sounds like he is built of fine stuff and I KNOW he will carry the legacy with him with honor.

Also... add to that:

"The only thing required for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

We Scouter's can not stand idly by and watch boys grow up to be men without true character and moral fiber. THAT is why we do it.. and I thank God every day that there were Scout leaders there for me when I was a boy and that I can be there now to stand in that gap.

Keep strong and know that these things change the world.

Vigil-Hiker - can you point me to the National policy that states that at 10 the den must be split?

I have read in thousands of places that dens SHOULD be 6-8 boys but never have seen a MUST/SHALL about the 10 number.

I just finished up my first year as a Tiger leader (without an Assistant) with 12 boys. These boys were all in one den and while it was loud at times I found that the boys respected my requests for attention and were pretty good 6-7 year olds.

I have worried about what happens when we add more boys in the Fall... have had the conversations with the parents about splitting the den. No one wants to split.. they liked how the last year went. I have, however, gained an assistant for the upcoming year.

Guess I am playing by ear on how big it gets.... probably will stay as one den up to 13.. and at 14 really have to consider a split with my new assistant taking the "new" den.

I have entered my information several times (on several different days) and can not get my profile to save and be visible.

Anyone have the answer to how to get it to work? or is it just broken?

Thanks

Just wanted to drop a URL for a CNN story about a family of Eagle Scouts (13 years to 96 years).

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/05/27/gilha.az.eagle.scouts.knxv

"A family of Eagle Scouts 1:17

One family celebrates four generations of Eagle Scouts and an opportunity to meet President Bush. KNXV reports."

Love it when these things show up on the front page of CNN.com.

Hello fellow NCAC scout...

I'm a Den Leader in the Goose Creek District (Loudoun County).

Glad to have some company.

Brian

I am very glad you are asking this question.

I have often considered a "pro" job but unfortunately could not make ends meet on the DE salary.... but... it would be great to hear some of the inside points.

I am just completing my first year as a Den Leader (Tiger) and had a ball doing it. I have a den of 12 boys.

However, I found that when I went back and tallied up the expenses I covered for crafts, supplies, and such, the amount is not trivial (just imagine 12 of anything and you can see how it would add up). I guess I really didn't realize how it would add up.

Our Pack is not rolling in dough since we keep our dues to the boys rather small ($40/yr to include Boy's Life and we give the boys a handbook and neckerchief each year they graduate).

I see only a couple of options here for me:

1. Scale back my activities with the boys - hate to do that since I am not doing extravagent things now

2. Submit costs to the treasurer and see what the Pack can afford to reimburse (if anything)

3. Pay for all of this out of my own pocket (which in our economical condition is not a overly favorable option)

4. Have the parents bring their own supplies from a list I provide

4. Establish a den dues system

Do any of you do a Den dues program? or how do you work parents bringing craft supplies - especially since I have a hard enough time getting the boys/parents to bring their handbooks (can't imagine the supplies with a boy not having any and just sitting there)?

I also used it as a time for me to focus on our Pack/Den safety and make sure that we had the proper amount of first aid kits spread out to the dens and for Pack events.

The adult leader should strive to earn this award as well. My boys love the fact that we earned a "badge" together and all (leader and boys) wear it. I guess it makes them feel like they are more grown up to wear a badge their leader wears as well.

I worked on this award with my Tiger den (12 boys). It was a great thing. We used the McGruff requirement for the Tigers and I plan on using the Red Cross material for them again as Wolves. I see this as a yearly program to work on adding a little more complexity as we go each year. Just becasuse they have earned the pin (and can only wear one on their uniform) doesn't mean that we shouldn't run the entire set of requirements each year to get them more comfortable.

I ordered both the Basic Aid Training and also First Aid for Children Today (FACT) and will be using them in several den meetings throughout the next couple of years. I more than likely will be supplementing the instruction with some Boy Scout First Aid MB things.. just to have them see them and start to understand.. not be able to perform.

Biggest thing to remember here is to get the boys to have fun and remember a few key facts to keep them from panic (as much as possible). I often see the boys reacting to the inevitable injuries a lot better and seeking to help rather than run the other way.

Surprised not to see this one on the list....

Camp Raven Knob - Mt Airy, NC (1982-1986)

I sure do miss summer camp...

I am the current leader for a Tiger Cub den. I have 12 Tigers and they are a handful (of course they are.. what else are 6-7 year old boys going to be, right?)

If last year was any indication, at the fall recruitment in September 2008, I will probably pick up at least 2 more boys that will be joining my den (of now freshly minted Wolf Scouts). This will cause me to have a den of 14 boys.

Here is my thought... I was thinking that it would be better for all involved if I split the den into two dens. This would make two dens of 7 boys (give or take depending on recruitment). My problem is the logistics of it are a little hard.

First.. I will need to recruit a leader to step up to take the Den Leader role for the "new" den.

Second.. How do I decide which boy will go to which den? random? keep friends together? ask the boys, parents which den they want?

I can see quite a few issues from this kind of actions and wanted to hear some real life experiences in performing this action by forum members that have done it...

So.. how did it go?

Our Pack has always required a parent to go with the child. Twofold reason here... in the case of injury or an issue we have the legal guardian present to be responsible for decision making.... and second it encourages the family to all be involved (since Cub Scouting is very family oriented).

The one question in my head is if another adult has been identified by the parent (and meets the 18 years old, etc, etc) then are we required to have so kind of written limited power of attorney or temp guardianship provided by the parent naming the other adult as responsible?

I think we have a little bit of confusion going here.

Tons of adults were the silver knot on purple (Youth Religious knot) to represent the earning of the award. It is the equivalent of wearing the Eagle knot or the AOL knot to represent the award earned in youth.

I personally wear the Youth Religious knot with the Boy Scout device to represent the God and Church award (Protestant) earned as a youth. There is no additional awarding of the religious awards that an adult can earn that would relate to this knot.... so any devices would be solely for awards earned as a youth (under 18). An adult can not earn a Youth Religious knot as an adult... only from past award as a youth.

Now.. as an adult.. the purple knot on silver background Adult Religious Knot is only awarded for exceptional service to the religious program by a religious organization. It is a nomination/recognition that is out of the control of the Scouter and usually requires a minimum of 5 years of solid notable service and no self nomination.

Funny how things spin on the forum... my initial intention is just to ask about anyone's thought on a mark, pin, hash, number, etc that could be used for any of the Adult knots (or heroism) to represent a second awarding of a knot.

Looks like the military uses numerals, knots, stars, letters, etc etc etc. Quite a few of these attachments are to represent a subsequent awarding fo the medal....

Totally agree with you ScoutNut....

Just a philosophical discussion on why a device is not around to represent a second knot... not to have 10 of the same knot on the shirt.

What does the military do with ribbons?

Good point about the District Award and Silver Beaver....

I know with the limited experience of adults in my pack that they would not have known that pack level work would allow for eligibility...

Truthfully... I'm not sure I have heard of any of these awards being bestowed on anyone just at Pack level in my District... but could be wrong.

I had thought about the Scouting for Food as well... especially for my Cubs.. but I wanted to make sure that the spirit of the award is met.

Hard part of Cub Scouting is wanting the boys to really feel they have earned something.. actually earning it.. and not putting so much work on it that they do the typical 6-10 year old wandering away because it is hard.

Thanks for the input.

In the case of the Youth religious knot devices it is to signify which segment or age group of the award. Adults do not earn devices for their Youth religious knot. Adults can be nominated and awarded by a religious organization the Adult Religious Knot but it is intended to be for extended and valuable contribution to the faith programs.

My main thought at the beginning of the post is that the regs state that only one of each knot can be worn on the uniform. However, in a typical progression, a parent might be a Tiger Den Leader (Tiger Den leader knot), then Wolf Den Leader (Cub Scout Den Leader knot), Bear den leader (no knot.. already got the Cub Scout Den leader knot), Webelos den leader (with knot) and etc. If the parent has additional children go thru the program it is very possible that they would step forward to lead in these capacities again. Even without other children there are scores of quality adults that love scouting and live to help and teach (thank goodness for these people).

So... the second time they are a Tiger Den leader they are once again putting in the work and meeting the requirements (numerous and not all time based requirements).. therefore earning the Tiger Cub Leader knot again... but no process is available for them to wear a "second" knot.

Service stars are also a valuable component to recognize years of service.. but a lot of these knots have a lot more to them than just showing up for a year.

Or... what of the Cubmaster that serves for 10 years. He earns the Cubmaster Knot (2 years plus a lot of other requirements) and the Cub Scouter knot (2 years plus a lot of other requirements)... but I'm sure his pack would like to keep reminding him that he is valuable to them and has accomplished a lot by meeting the 10+ requirements for a second, third, etc knot...

Obviously.. to add more.. a Cub Scout leader could get the Cub Scouter award after 2 more years of service but I am talking more theoretical as far as repition..

Are any of your programs running the US Heritage Award ( http://www.nationstrails.com/awards/index.html )?

I have looked it over and like it for my Cub scouts...

My question is to the last requirement.. "Render a service that benefits a neighborhood or community." Does anyone have a sense as to what level of effort that should be? Has anyone out there completed the program and done a Service project for this? (for my group remember that we are talking 7-9 year olds)...

Thanks

Often wondered why their is not an established device of some sort to add to knots to signify a second awarding (or third, etc).

For instance, dedicated leaders that stick around and are Tiger Den Leaders for 3 years.. they would earn the knot once and then nothing under the current system. Wouldn't it be appropriate to recognize these folks with a small star or hash mark or Cub Scout sign or something?

The current role in devices is to identify at what level a knot was earned/awarded but nothing as far as repitition....

What do you guys think?

Those segments may be for the Good Turn for America program. They put out segments with a year on them.

Earning that patch (which goes on the right pocket as a temp) is very broad. Typically they are for any scouter (boy or adult) that donates time and effort to the Good Turn program (and program wants you to log these hours in their online database).

The web site for that is:

http://www.goodturnforamerica.org/