Snow_White

I haven't experienced this directly, but I have heard of situations where a leader is willing to work with a specific rank level rather than work directly with their son's den. I suspect there is something more going on behind the scenes here. Did the CC or CM offer any explanation for this?

With all due respect,Fehler,I have to disagree with some of your points.

Holding make-up sessions and providing extra help is admirable, and shows what a caring leader you are. However, I don't see not awarding a badge when a scout has not completed the requirements as "penalizing" the scout. And telling them that you'll expect better adherence to the requirements as they progress through the ranks strikes me as a bit silly as well; after all, you've already shown them that you don't really expect that much from them. Besides,the actual requirements get more challenging and involved as they progress, so the expectations are already designed to be higher at each level.

In my opinion, "Do your best" should be applied to each task. If the task is to make a poster about the topic, then each boy does his best and there is no judgment as to whether the completed poster is good enough or not. However, "I did my best to get to the meeting but Dad didn't bring me" does not count as doing your best to complete your poster! "I did my best with the Wolf requirements" even though only 6 of the 12 are completed should not get you the Wolf Badge.

I will apologize in advance for some disjointed rambling...

Ann, it seems to me that your idea of celebrating the birthdays at the end of the event, so that families can opt out if they choose, is the correct course. It sounds like the parent who spoke with you was not asking for special consideration, but just wanted to know what the plan was so that she could handle it appropriately for her son.

In my work life, I have seen that the Jehovah's Witnesses in the office did not participate in birthday celebrations in any manner; they not only excluded themselves on their own birthdays, but did not share in any cake for others and continued to work at their desks while everyone else was gathering in the breakroom. Of course, these were adults, so I don't know if they would have the same expectations of a child.

It is due to dealing with situations like this (along with food allergy issues and concerns about childhood obesity) that our school simply doesn't allow birthday celebrations. Of course, they also make the case that these celebrations don't contribute to the instructional mission of the school, which I can't argue with. They also do not allow celebration of Halloween or any of the winter holidays. Years ago when my mom taught school, they actually taught the kids something about Christmas, Hannukkah, and Kwanzaa, and families were invited to make a presentation if they celebrated something else. These days, it seems like PC'ness dictates that we pretend it all doesn't exist for fear of offending anyone. (Our school has also "banned" the BSA because of its discriminatory practices, but that's a different story.)

I have just returned from spending the day at school listening to student presentations at "Simulated Congressional Hearings" where they discussed various Constitutional issues. A number of the questions centered on the notion of "the common good" vs. individual rights. In all of the cases, the students made the assumption that the common good is the same as the majority opinion. Now, the distinction between those ideas might be a bit sophisticated for 5th graders, but it was definitely something that made me go "Hmmmm...."

Also, keep in mind that most of the Webelos activity badges have options for completing the badge that do not require the belt loop.

If I remember correctly, Citizen requires the Citizenship belt loop, Sportsman requires 2 individual and 2 team sports belt loops, and Scientist requires the Science belt loop. Of these, Citizen is the only one that is required for Webelos badge/Arrow of Light.

While it is perfectly fine within the requirements to re-earn a belt loop previously earned, as a parent (not necessarily as a leader) I would encourage my scout to complete a requirement he has not done before.

My husband saw this on the scroll on CNN this morning, but didn't get any other details.

It looks like one of the links above has an update confirming that they have been rescued.

I know what a PSA is in the context of formerly working at a broadcast radio station.

In the context of Cub Scouts, I have no idea...

We use onions, green and red peppers, mushrooms - the peppers and onions do stay a bit crunchy, but don't have to be precooked if you don't mind that.

Glad to hear it. Thanks for reporting back to us. (I'm always kind of disappointed when situations get brought for discussion(and speculation), and then you don't get an update on the outcome from the OP.)

To give you a bit of perspective...

My son's den recently "graduated" out of the pack. All 10 Webelos in the den earned the Arrow of Light, with 8 of them crossing over (4 each to 2 different troops).

Five years ago, he started in a Tiger den of 10. Of the 10 who got Arrow of Light, only 4 were original members of that Tiger den. It was always sad to see someone leave the den, and there were various reasons - moving, sports, lack of interest. But somehow, new boys kept coming along. During the 5 years, the den size varied from a low of 9 to a high of 13.

Unless you have reason to think that there is a problem in the pack that is driving people away (and it doesn't sound that way from what you have posted), continue to focus on providing the best program you can for the boys that want to be there. And let them get the word out to their friends!

E92,

I'm not sure when it was dropped, but filling out the application is no longer one of the AoL requirements. I believe that the replacement is the current requirement to visit a troop you are interested in joining (with your parents, presumably after the den has visited one or more troops) and to have a Scoutmaster Conference.

As to the second boy, your proposed solution is likely the most effective way to handle it and keep the boy in the program.

I'd suggest pointing out to the family that crossover doesn't need to happen at the B&G, have him finish up the AOL requirements, and after that has happened, have a nice ceremony welcoming him to the troop. But if the rest of his den is finished AOL and is crossing over at the B&G, then (a) there is probably no Web den leader left to help him finish the AOL requirements and (b) you run the risk of alienating the boy and his family because he was left out of the big ceremony. Just make sure that the pack sends in the advancement report showing him earning AOL before you process the paperwork for him to officially join the troop.

(rant on) For the life of me, I don't understand how things get to this point - I guess lack of communication between den leaders and parents, or disengaged parents who think these things just happen because the kid shows up? All the parent has to do is read the handbook to know what the requirements are! Sheesh! (rant off)

Good luck - let us know how it works out.

We always use the non-dairy stuff that comes in the tub as well. Let it thaw in the refrigerator for about a day beforehand.

gp,

A PWD question was brought up today by a new user who was having trouble with search results. I presume pack was being helpful by bumpimg these threads up to the top of the list.

Based on what you are telling us here, combining the two events for this year sounds like a fine idea for your pack. Just make sure that your B&G says "Happy Birthday to Scouting" in some way, and have fun!

Another thing that I'd like to point out is that the pack does not control when your son "can" cross-over - he can do that at any time once he's met the joining requirements for Boy Scouts - whenever you and he decide that the time is right.

The pack absolutely should present your son with his AoL when it is earned. Check the requirements carefully; some specify that activities are to be done "with your den" and that can make it difficult to complete if the rest of the den is moving at a different pace.

(And about the patrol thing - while Webelos dens are allowed to/ encouraged to choose a name for themselves and can wear a patrol emblem representing this name, they are in fact still dens and should not be called patrols.)

To add to the continuing confusion, the text of the 2009 IG specifies red/white unit numerals for all CS (including Webelos in CU shirt) and CS Leaders, but the color pictures in the middle show the Webelos in green/tan unit numerals.

Our local Scout Shop (I don't know who owns it, but employees are wearing gold shoulder loops, if that means anything) still insists on telling all purchasers of CU shirts that unit numerals must be green/tan.

With all due respect, OGE, Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers, and Disney do a good job of entertaining 3- and 4-year-olds without reliance on bathroom humor. Boys come home from Kindergarten with hilarious (to them) fart jokes.

At our recent district Webelos campfire, I learned that any skit that involved a group of 9/10 year olds and a roll of toilet paper was a hit, regardless of topic.

Thanks for sharing additional information - posters here can give better advice when they know a little more about the dynamics of the situation.

A couple of years ago, about half of our Bear den had earned rank by mid-November, so I would say that it's not that rare of an occurence.

I am surprised by the comment that the CM refuses to give them both Bobcat and Bear at the same pack meeting - not sure that I can find support for that position in any of the program materials. If they've earned them both, they should get them both! It seems likely to me, from what you have said here, that some of the requirements have been skirted, but if it's been signed off by the parent and/or den leader as Akela, there is not much you can do at this point. Don't punish the scouts for the errors of the adults. With that said, keep in mind that the boys are probably more perceptive than we give them credit for, and have a strong sense of what is and isn't fair - they probably know when they are "getting away with something." Let the past be past, but make sure that going forward you can hold them accountable for really completing the requirements.

Other than that, what does the CM think about the situation - you haven't said much about him in all of this? I sense that your issues with this den leader go well beyond advancement and meeting structure. You made a point of mentioning that these scouts are not participating in pack activities and fundraisers. Is this den leader not encouraging and supporting the rest of the pack? You said that 5 of the boys are new as of Sept 1. New parents often do not even know the difference between a den and pack, and which event is which can be confusing to them - but their primary source of information is usually the den leader. If they don't get the info from the DL, it may not be entirely their fault.

Ultimately, as COR, you do have the authority to remove the DL. But it is best to have the backing of the rest of the pack leadership, and a replacement lined up. But I think your mind is already made up...

"A few notes of clarification.

He said to let my committee chairperson know because if he is to be removed from the pack it has to come from the Committee. I can't do it myself as Cubmaster. Additionally I do know this -- I need to be careful with this one because I don't want to have a lawsuit slapped on me...

Your DE is wrong. The CO can remove the CC, not the committee.

And even if you unilaterally tried to remove the CC, you wouldn't get slapped with a lawsuit. Volunteer Scouting isn't like a paid job."

Shortridge, I think the OP was trying to say that s/he was told that if the Scout is to be removed from the pack is has to be by the committee, not the CM. (I have no idea if this is true or not, but this must be what the DE said. I don't think they want to remove the CC.) I also don't believe that this falls into lawsuit territory - there is nothing that says a pack has allow anyone to be a member, is there?

As this is in the Cub Scout section, don't forget

KISMIF - Keep It Simple, Make It Fun!

(Oops, missed SSScout's variation on this one.)(This message has been edited by Snow_White)

I just checked our copy of the Webelos handbook, which is labeled 2008 printing. It still says this (on page 25). I guess the proofreaders didn't catch all the changes that needed to be made...

Does anyone have an authoritative source that states that the new belt loops count for this badge?

While it would make sense to me that they should, I have not seen it in writing anywhere, nor have I ever seen or heard that the list printed in the Webelos handbook is a help or convenience and NOT the requirement itself.

Of course, it's not the first time that changes are not communicated clearly by the BSA...

I have always been told that due to the controlled nature of the activity, Archery and BB do not count toward this badge - note that even though these are old belt loops, they are conspicuously absent from the list of suggestions. The answer I've always heard is that there is a plenty long list of others to choose from.

I agree that awards should be presented as soon as possible after they are earned.

However, I think that it is also wise of you to be sensitive to the fact the he is the DL's son and the perception that this presents. As someone else said, sometimes this happens just because the DL's son ends up being at all of the activities. But, I have also seen cases where the WDL's son got signed off before everyone else because of things that were done at home with the parent. (For instance, testing on knowing Scout Oath and Law, etc... - signed off because it was done at home with WDL's son, but WDL did not review this with other scouts that also had been working on it because they ran out of time at den meeting, so they did not get signed off.) As long as all scouts had the same opportunity to get signed off on what they accomplished, there should not be an issue that all scouts in the den haven't earned the award at the same time.(This message has been edited by Snow_White)

Sorry for the confusion; I think WCS got what I was saying.

We also leave Cubs who have paid registered until the next re-charter, even if they tell us that they are dropping out. I'm not sure how that factors into the numbers at the den level for this type of thing, though.

I see the point that a den shouldn't be penalized (if that's the right word) for the non-participation of someone who has stated that they are dropping out, or signed up but never participated. On the other hand (and the point that I was trying to make earlier), is that I have never heard of a cub who is registered in the pack, but is not in any particular den. Not sure how I feel about the concept of a "den" made up of dropped scouts...

Not sure I follow that line of thinking...

If they were "in the pack" but not "in your den", then which den would they be in?