Snow_White

B,

What about guests who are not there for recruiting purposes?

I know that at least one family in our pack is planning to bring friends (adults, no children) to our Family Campout this year.

"I do not mean to imply that we give them the badge just becase we screwed up. I mean, if they tried, participated,and did their best ( as the requiremenst say) and the only reason they haven't done more is because of us, not them....then I'm starting to think they have earned it, BASED UPON the books' definition of meeting the requiremnt."

I'm still not sure exactly what you are trying to say here, or what you mean by "haven't done more". The "do your best" applies to how they complete a specific achievement, not "do your best" to complete as many requirements as you can. In other words, one of the possible requirements to complete achievement 3 is to be a member of the color guard for a flag ceremony in your den or pack. If a Scout in fact does this, we will presume that he has done his best in carrying out this function - not say, Sorry, Billy, you weren't standing at attention the whole time, so it doesn't count, try again. However, if Johnny tries his best to get picked to be a member of the color guard week after week and Den Leader Smith never calls on him, we don't say that Johnny did his best to meet the requirement and sign off.

You're doing a good job identifying what may have gone wrong so far this year, but the year is not over yet - there is still plenty of time to ensure that all Scouts who want to earn their rank badge do so.

And lest I sound too critical, I agree that it is amazing to have accomplished what you did so far, and I commend you for turning the critical eye on the situation. I'm sure you won't be making the same mistakes next year. (You'll be making different ones, but that's all part of the journey!)

I am annoyed by some of the fun and games that have taken over this thread, but frankly, I am far more disgusted by the ridicule and comments made here (albeit a long time ago, now) about the SM, Troop Committee, et al, based on unsubstantiated comments made by a disgruntled parent. Surely it was appropriate to provide guidance to the parent as to how to go about an appeal, but there must be more than one side to this story.

But any of us who have been Scouters for a while have had to deal with parents who could just never be satisfied. Would you want your actions to be picked apart in this way around the virtual campfire?

Scout Law, indeed.

I think your thoughts are headed on the right direction.

My experience has been that there are always some Scouts that earn more awards, and more quickly, than others. And yes, they tend to be the leaders' sons.

Yes, the leaders have a responsibility to help the others finish up. Many achievements can be completed at home, but some do need to be done with the den. Have a flag ceremony to open each den meeting, make sure that participation is rotated among the kids and make sure everybody gets a chance - DL needs to keep track. A little extra work, but I think I agree that if this is not done, maybe the DL isn't doing their best.

And yes, the den leaders should be reviewing each Scout's progress, and communicating to the families what specific items need to be completed. Although we are all capable of reading the book, many Bear families donn't seem to grasp the concept that the 12 achievements need to be many from each category, not just any 12. DL's job to help make sure they get that. Yep, a lot of extra work with that many kids.

But to jump to the conclusion that the leaders have failed the Scouts, and therefore the badge should be awarded? I don't think so...

I apologize if I'm not misinterpreting you.

Well, I don't think that I do get what you're saying here, but I'm willing to hike along with you for a bit.

When my son was a Bear, most of the Scouts in his den had earned rank by this point in the year. For those that hadn't, the den leader communicated individually with each family to remind them what needed to be completed at home. She ended up scheduling one additional (optional) den meeting where she planned specific activities to help these scouts finish up rank. I know that she also met with certain families outside of den meeting time to review and sign off activities.

Are you thinking that you need to be doing something similar? We had 13 Scouts in the den, not 24, so it sounds like you have a more difficult row to hoe. It's easy to be headed for burnout at this point in the year, particularly as spring sports start up and families start focusing elsewhere. It's a good idea to start doing outside activites - from previous posts, I don't think you have a problem doing that!

Since Whittling Chip can count toward either the Bear badge or arrow points, I don't see the problem with that plan.

"Yep according to national, "active" = registered."

I know, but the Webelos handbook specifically states "Be an active member of your Webelos den for three months. (Active means having good attendance, paying your den dues, and working on den projects.)"

So maybe the rules are more stringent for Webelos than for Eagles? :-)

"The wildlife conservation belt loop requires a boy report to his den on an endangered species."

Good point, I didn't check the requirements on this one specifically. Most of the belt loops can be completed at home without den involvement.

Fancilfulmist,

Sorry that you hear about this kind of ordeal - it is hard on kids, parents, and DL's.

I wanted to point out, however, that parents are the primary Akela for belt loops and pins, and that the Scout is not required to review what he did with his den leader in order to earn the belt loop. If you had notified the den in advance what was being covered at the den meeting, the Scout might have been able to complete it at home and be called up with the rest of his denmates to receive the award. (Of course, there are always parents that need to be a PITA, and you can't fix that.)

Not trying to be too critical, but I can see the situation from both sides.

ScoutNut,

What if your pack has occasional activities throughout the summer, but the den does not meet during the summer - would you still count that time toward "active in your den"? (Personally, I wouldn't think so, but don't know of an official policy on this.)

Perhaps you could start another thread about good April Fool's pranks and leave this thread dedicated to the original topic - just in case the mom (or anyone from the troop/district/council) wants to come back and discuss what really happened.

Good luck, Scoutfish. You're doing the right thing.

I think that the District did hold the EBOR.

I'm not sure what the threat of legal action can be - maybe Beavah or someone else with a legal background can help out?

Thanks to those who cleared up the "10.5" confusion.

While I understand MNBob's concern for the Webelos in the 5th grade but not yet 11 who may get left behind when their friends cross over, I have to agree that there is already an exception in place for them - and that exception is to earn the Arrow of Light. The issues that Bob listed above are quite valid - but we as Pack leaders need to make sure that the families understand how this works early in their 5th grade year so that there are no surprises.

Yes, this is difficult when they join as new Webs in 5th grade (working with a couple of these in our pack right now). Yes, it helps if the SM/troop allows them to participate in troop activities as a "visitor" until they can officially join. But I don't think that this constitutes a gap in the joining requirements that needs to be fixed.

We have always done Arrow of Light and cross-over at one ceremony - previously as part of the Blue & Gold, this year as a separate ceremony in February. They usually don't finish up AoL until this time of the year, so we've never had to deal with the situation you describe, although our committee has had a few theoretical discussions about whether or not we would do them separately.

I know you're not looking for advice, but I just wanted to throw a couple of thoughts out on the table for discussion. I've always been a proponent of giving out awards when they are earned. However, if your pack has a particular tradition, are your boys happy to do it a different way? (Parents may have more problem with breaking tradition than the boys, but I wouldn't be too concerned with that.) Also, addressing your comment about the other den leader possibly being annoyed - is there real or perceived competition between your dens? Is this really likely to cause hard feelings? Obviously you shouldn't hold your den back, but you may have to be prepared to smooth some ruffled feathers with the other den leader, parents, or pack committee when you start doing things different from the way "we've always done it".

MNBob,

What about boys who have never been in Cub Scouts - do you propose that the joining requirements for them be also altered to "be 11 or be in the 5th grade"?

(I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to follow along your logic here.)

FWIW, I believe that the "Lions" name was resurrected by National, not Northern Star - Northern Star happens to be one of the councils participating in a pilot of the program.

In our pack, I have seen Tiger dens that work really well, and some that didn't go so well. I hadn't thought about it until now, but it does seem that the common thread in the ones that worked well was a TDL with prior scouting experience.

That being said, I'm not sure that I want my youngest to sign up for Tigers when the time comes. My Webelos son is really enjoying the activities that his den is doing, and starting to get excited about choosing a troop to cross over to. But when it comes to pack meetings, pocorn sales, PWD, B&G, his attitude is very been-there, done-that. (Yes, I know that there will still be popcorn sales in Boy Scouts...)

When I was first exposed to Cub Scouts, it was 2 years working on Wolf/Bear ranks, and one year as Webelos. I'm starting to think that 4 1/2 years is just too long, let alone 5 1/2 years with Lions!

No, they need to wait until they are officially Webelos (June 1 or end of the school year, depending on how they do it in your neck of the woods).

Interesting...

Note also the wording "When you complete your Bobcat tests..."

Lisa,

I had the same reaction when I heard this brought up at Roundtable. The question was "How can we get families to participate in the spring? No one come comes to anything they get their rank badges at the B&G."

My thoughts - (1) Don't focus on getting everyone to earn rank for the B&G. (2) Plan some Spring activities that folks will be interested in participating in.

(Sorry for hijack continuation...)

Our pack is dealing with this right now - we have scouts who joined in 5th grade as part of the Webelos II den, but could not bridge with the rest of their den because they did not earn the Arrow of Light (and are not yet 11 or finished 5th grade).

Every situation is different, but I think the right thing is to put them in the Webelos II den, if you have one. (Why would they want to be part of the 4th grade den? In most cases, they probably join because they have school friends in Web II. Obviously, your situation was a little different.) Then have someone take on the task of helping them "catch up" so that they can earn AoL by the usual time. I know this is easier said than done, but I think it is important to that someone "volunteers" to have specific responsibility for this - if the den leader doesn't have the extra time, then ADL, CM or committee member. In our situation, it seems that the new scouts just went along with what activity badges the rest of the den was doing, no one worked with them on Webelos badge or Aol requirements (earned Bobcat, at least), and then they were shocked at the bridging ceremony when their names weren't called.

It sound like you have the right idea for next year.

OSS -

Welcome to the forums, and welcome to Cub Scouting. I'm glad to hear that your Tigers are having a good year. Lots of good advice given in this thread already.

I'm curious as to where this pressure is really originating - is it coming from a Tiger parent who doesn't want their son to feel left out? Is it the CM/pack leaders who have perhaps "always done it this way"?

Another thing that you may want to look at - I have heard from other packs in our district that they have issues with attendance dropping off in the spring due to sports and other activities, so for all intents and purposes their program year is over when they award rank badges at the B&G. (I think this is sort of a chicken and egg situation, but that's just a personal opinion...) Is there a similar situation in your pack?

Just working from memory here, but I think that he does need to re-earn the LNT, as the requirements for a Bear to earn LNT are slightly different from the requirements for a Wolf to earn LNT. You might want to check the Wolf and Bear handbooks on that.

Also, I believe that all of the requirements to earn the Outdoor Activity Award have to be completed within the specific rank year.

In our pack, the Webelos do not usually meet over the summer. Scouts who are interested in working on advancement can work on the activity badges that would typically be done more at home than with the den (Traveler, Family Member come to mind, also Aquanaut is usually done over the summer). The den leader will make suggestions as to which badges the scouts can work on outside of den meetings.

However, I would be in favor of the den getting together to work on badges over the summer if the rest of den was interested in doing it - especially some of the requirements that need to be done outside.

They usually earn their AoL and crossover by February or early March. Our AoL ceremony and crossover for this year's Web II group is tomorrow. We are doing it as a separate event from the B&G this year.

Our pack traditionally does a pot luck for B&G. Each den is assigned a category (main dish, side, etc...) and each family is asked to bring a dish that serves 8-10 people. Pack provides beverages, pizza, and a cake. It generally works out fine, but most everybody already knows what to expect.

We do not give out awards at B&G.

Here's my funny pot-luck story. At a church pot-luck a few years back, the main dish table had 18 dishes of mac & cheese and 1 dish of chicken nuggets - that's all!

I think that the information provided by ScoutNut applies to currently registered scouts remaining/rechartering in the pack, while Rick's quote applies to a new registration. Don't know if anyone can find a hard quote that clarifies this, or not.