Snow_White

First, a technical correction - Wolves are second graders, Bears are third graders.

This sure presents some logistical challenges - I have never heard a school system set up this way. How far apart are the schools geographically? Does each K-2 have its own sister 3-5, or is it more of matrix arrangement?

There might be some considerable effort in moving some charters around, but I would think that it would be worth the effort to have each pack include the full range of Tigers - Webelos. (I've not yet seen the Lions program in action, so I'll leave that out for now.) I'm guessing this would be easier for families with boys in different age groups. I think a pack works better when there are a variety of age ranges with differing skill / maturity levels. And the younger Scouts are always looking forward to moving to Webelos when they've seen a taste of the more involved activities that they can participate in at that level.

Just my two cents... Obviously, you need to figure out how to make the logistics work for your situation.

My interpretation is that "do as many as you can" refers to as many reps as you can of each activity - not as many of the activities as you can.

Did you discuss issue of the quarter mile time with his den leader? If any of the other Webelos in the den are having the same issue, it should be handled consistently for all of them.

I too am concerned about the impact of this new rule on recruiting leaders, particularly at the Cub level where you are more likely to be looking for new leaders among new parents that do not have prior scouting experience. Also, from the information that I have received locally, I understand that this applies as well to Tiger registered partners. I can see it now - Mr. Smith, we'd love to have Billy join our Tiger den, but before he can, you need to go home, take this online training, print out a certificate of completion, and bring it back to us along with your completed application authorizing the background check. I'm not sure we'll see Billy again after that...

WCS,

Just out of curiosity, what is your position in the pack leadership? Are you responsible for making a decision about his situation, or just trying to advise others? (Feel free not to answer if this is too intrusive.)

In any event, please let us know the eventual outcome.

Can't figure out how to edit a post when I submit before I was really done thinking...

Anyway, I'm glad that you are looking into this in advance and making sure the family understands. I've seen a some hurt feelings, upset scouts, and irate parents when these kinds of issues come to light at the last minute.

In some cases, the troop will allow the scout, along with a responsible parent, to visit and participate in some troop activities, although the scout cannot earn any advancement.

I hope that this situation does not sour the family on Scouting and that the boy will choose to join a troop as soon as he meets the requirements.

"Boy Scouting, one of the traditional membership divisions of the BSA, is available to boys who have earned the Arrow of Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade and are at least 10, or who are 11, but not yet 18 years old."

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/BoyScouts.aspx

Sounds like he has to wait until he turns 10, even if he has finished the fifth grade.

"Telling me that an ASM is not allowed to be female, tells me that you do not feel that women make good role models, and do not have good values."

This is one possible interpretation of the CO's policy, but there are certainly other reasons that the policy could exist. My position is that we don't have enough information here to make a conclusive determination.

Bottom line, of course it is the parent's choice to allow her son to continue in the troop or not. No one stated otherwise. Folks here are just trying to provide some different perspectives for the OP to try on for size before making a decision.

Sounds like you have answered your own question.

Over the years, our pack has had many families with 2 sons in different grade levels / different dens, some only a year apart. Have never known of a family to ask for them to be in the same den or come to the same meeting.

Ah, sounds easy to nip this one at this point. After June 1st, younger son registers as Tiger, can earn Bobcat right away (since he already knows his stuff). Next thing you know, he'll have a whole den of new friends to do things with.

If it were me, I'd be firm with dad on this one.

I'm not entirely sure how some of us got all twisted up in "beliefs" and "values" on this issue. The OP stated that the CO has a particular policy. Without knowing the reason for the policy, I think it's a bit a stretch to extrapolate what this means. Must we assume that it means the CO feels that women are somehow inferior to men or not qualified to adequately lead young men?

I get a sense here that OP's feeling bit put out that a.) her experience as a scouter doesn't seem to be recognized by the troop and b.) she is being denied the opportunity to be leader of the troop that her son is part of. Nothing wrong with feeling that way. But still a bit of jump to get from there to the troop instilling values in the boy that are contrary to the family's beliefs.

I think some good advice has been given here - always good to get a variety of opinions, right? Opens our minds to new ways of looking at things. But always so good to get all tied up in the emotions of the moment, I think.

I meant to add...

If the dad is new to scouting, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, assume that he meant no harm and didn't realize this wasn't appropriate.

But how to handle it now? I would say that the younger son needs to repeat the Tiger year, although it sounds a bit like punishing the son for a problem caused by the adults. He would probably still have fun repeating those activities at this level. But three years of Webelos? I can't see a kid wanting to do that, especially when the other scouts that he has been with for years move on. Best to try and convince the parents that it is better for the younger son to be with friends his own age and participate in activities designed for that age group.

I have to agree with NE-IV on this one.

The CS program is designed with age-appropriate activities for a reason. And if it's ok for this kindergartener to be a Tiger, why not all kindergarteners? Why can't any first grader be a Wolf? (I assume that the younger son is not yet 7, which would trump the grade-based requirement.)

I'm curious as to how long this has been going on - if it's been going on all year, why has no one made an issue of it until now? As the others have said, the records couldn't be going into Scoutnet, right?

E92, is that a trick question? :-) In most cases, the folks here have had better information.

Couple of examples... They have only pulled the standard (non 2010) rank badges off the shelf in the past month; prior to that, I don't think they had enough in stock to meet the need. They told me that they had problems getting them in (which I believe, and it's not their fault), but they also told me that they were not told to pull the others and believed that the 2010 were only supposed to be "collectors items".

They also are still telling CS leaders and Webelos that only green unit numbers / trained strips can go on Centennial shirts.

"I've always seen and done 6/15 to 12/15. Six months. If the previous BOR was on June 15, the earliest the next one can be is December 15. Never had that rejected."

Coming from a background in financial services and many years of doing interest calculations on debt, I would say that this is exactly what is meant by assuming that all months have 30 days.

(Unless they mean that a four-month tenure must always be at least 120 days, but it doesn't sound like that's where this is going.)

FWIW, our local shop has no Bear neckers and is saying they will not be able to get more until September. Also, they have not heard that Webs neckers are changing, but are now out of them are not currently able to order any.

Read into it what you will. I usually get a different story from them than what I read here.

You're right, sasha, I was not considering a situation where a prospective Tiger is already 7, as that fairly unusual around here.

In his usual manner, ScoutNut has explained it more clearly and eloquently than I can.

As dg said, a boy going into first grade will not be able to register until June 1.

If, for example, you have a boy who is finishing 2nd grade interested in joining, it would be a great idea to have him join a Wolf den now, work on Bobcat, and be ready to start on the Bear badge with his den mates over the summer.

Just make sure that the family understands that he will not be working on his Wolf badge - there is no "catching up" on things he missed. Having the conversation now may save some heartache and hurt feelings later down the road.

Ian Anderson awesomeness aside, I assumed that the OP was referring to the video game...

It sounds to me like Bert is giving some great advice on this one.

No reason for a Wolf badge to become a committee issue. As far as I can recall, virtually all of the Wolf requirements can be done at home with the parents. As his wolf den leader (whether he comes to meetings or not), you should sit down with parent, cub, and book, and review what he has done. Ultimately, the parent has the right to sign off on requirements, but I think it's not out of line to have a friendly conversation with the family about what activities he enjoyed the most, what new things he tried, etc... Den leader (you) can then report to advancement chair (you) that scout has earned the badge. After all, as advancement chair, you don't normally communicate directly with parents about their scout's activities, right?

Sometimes it's hard to keep the person and the role separate, especially when you need to step and fill multiple pairs of shoes.

Keep dad's performance as DL a separate issue.

Bert, thanks for the clarification - you've answered a number of my questions about the new program in just one statement.

I have to disagree with the idea of requiring worksheets to get the belt loop or pin - to used the much dreaded phrase, this is adding to the requirements.

However, a diplomatic conversation with a parent can clear up a lot of misunderstandings about the program. Some of us who have been around Scouting for a long time forget how much new parents don't know.

If that doesn't clear up anything, the parent is the Akela and you have to live with that. Of course, if the requirement says "discuss with your den" or "display at a pack meeting, you can state if that wasn't actually done; a Tiger can't earn more pins than belt loops; and it's up to the pack who has to pay for them (policy applied consistently to all scouts).

Good luck - we all end up dealing with similar situations now and then.

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.

(Quoting Abraham Lincoln)

G2SS states (in bold) "When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian."

I have always understood this to mean that the situation you describe is prohibited, even if his own parent is also in the tent?

"Sharing tents is okay as long as each scout in the tent also has his adult in the tent."

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here - isn't this against YP rules?

Jeffrey, I think you misinterpreted ScoutNut's comment.

He didn't mean to imply that Tigers can't camp with the Pack, only that a Tiger could not camp with another responsible adult as outlined. Tiger parent/adult partner is required for all activities at the Tiger level.