SM_Travis

Thanks for comments. I don't disagree with election comments, this is our 2nd cycle with this system. Problem we had 3 elections ago was no one really wanted SPL, and the scouts ended up electing a scout who had no leadership experience and not much interest. It was a rough 6 months for the troop. We had heard of other Troops using this method and last cycle worked well for us. Now not so much.

We have 5 patrols, so we should be able to have a functioning PLC. We haven't really had one, at least not one that worked well. That's another question for another day. I will probably have several over the next few months as I take control of the Troop.

We elect ASPL for 6 months, who then becomes SPL for 6 months. This solved one problem (scout thrust into SPL role with no preparation), but created another that we hadn't considered. The SPL is a rule stickler, and a bit bossy. The ASPL has more respect from the Troop, and has a more laid back style. He is equally able to get the Scouts to do whatever task needs done, but in a very different way. His biggest maturity issue is that he is pretty openly disrespectful of the SPL, at least when adults are not present.

If they were being honest both scouts would tell you that the other is the one person they would least like to work with. I think they are both capable leaders, but I'm not sure how to get them to work together. Further complicating matters is that the ASPL is my son. He and the SPL have annoyed each other since they were cubs together. The SPL's parents and I have had some minor conflicts in the past. In my opinion they treat their kid like he is infailable, which leads to some of his issues. Apparently at the camporee last weekend, his favorite phrase was "well I'm in charge". The source for this is not my son.

I'm a new SM, any advice from those of you more experienced? There have already been a couple of things I have done differently based on the advice I got here. Thanks.

Twocub

I know both the fathers, and I think they are more stubborn than the 15 year olds.

I get what you are saying about the attitude, but I guess my point is that if they are only there once a month for meetings and not at campouts, then I don't have them poisoning the well every week and at every campout. I'm not naive enough to think that I can permanently fix this problem. A 15 year old with a bad attitude isn't going to change just because I try to guilt them into it. But I can try to isolate it so the infection doesn't spread.

A couple of points:

I am only using the merit badge because it is a convenient way for me to get those boys together to drop the hammer on them. Otherwise, it will be weeks before I can get them all together, and I don't have that kind of time. The bigger issue is that they are going to need me as Scoutmaster to sign off on Scout Spirit, and them actually doing something with their POR beyond accepting a position to fill a check box. At this point I'm not inclined to do so.

At this point I actually do only care if they give me a few weeks. I want them to help for recruitment. After that, I don't care as much. I have a young but good group without them. But they are going to kill our new class of Scouts if they don't step it up for the next few weeks. Frankly if they weren't there that would be better, I think they are going to be there and providing negative leadership to our younger Scouts and the Webelos. And it isn't fair to the younger boys for me to step back and let the older ones kill the program.

I have no problem letting a patrol suffer through small amounts of crappy food when they drop the ball. But in this case the older group all got together and collectively decided to just not go. The one younger guy in the patrol (which was a provisional patrol created for this campout only) was out of the loop completely, and did everything he was supposed to do. He is one of my strongest young leaders, and I think by Sunday he was ready to quit Scouts. Now I have to worry about his bad attitude infecting others down the line.

As an aside, 2 of these Scouts have been told by their fathers that they can't get a drivers license until after they earn Eagle Scout. And I'm pretty sure that they also won't be allowed to change Troops. So I think that I am going to be able to force them to help the next few weeks. After that, I'm probably going to let them coast as long as they don't cause problems with the others. I don't think any of them need POR's to advance, and I'm going to highly suggest to the SPL that they are not given any.

Quick background on me since I'm not a frequent poster. My son crossed over into this Troop about 18 months ago, about 6 months ago I agreed to take over as Scoutmaster, I am officially taking the position at our next court of honor (end of this month). I've gone through Woodbadge, but haven't completed my tickets yet.

I have a small group of 15 year olds who revived a nearly dead troop when they crossed over from Webelos. For the first few years, they did everything. Now they are burned out, and I understand that. But they are dropping the ball with a really motivated group of 11-13 year olds. This past weekend, we had a camporee that the older boys had signed up for, but didn't attend. One dad made his son go to the church parking lot to tell me that he wasn't going, the others just didn't show up. They also have run for and held leadership positions, including SPL, and dropped the ball on their responsibilities the last few terms. The newly elected SPL was supposed to be in their patrol for this camporee (he's 12), and he was the only one to show up. The other boys (including grubmaster) were no shows. He was mad, and also wondering why if the cool older kids are blowing off Scouts he even ran for SPL. I think if he could have undid the election from a few nights earlier, he would have.

All of this is happening in the middle of Webelos recruitment. We have dens coming to our Troop meetings the next 2 weeks, and then Webelos Woods the following weekend. We have 4 Troops in our town, so it's a big deal to have a decent showing or these Webelos will just join a different Troop.

Most of these 15 year olds only need the personal management merit badge and to finish an Eagle project to get their Eagle Scout rank. I have been working with them on the merit badge. We are supposed to have a meeting about the merit badge tomorrow night an hour before the Troop meeting. I am planning on telling them I am dropping the ball on them at the last minute on this badge, just like they did to their younger Scouts. If they want to me to continue, they need to bring their A game the next few weeks, and make it right with the Scout who showed up at the camp out with no food. If they aren't willing to do that, they should probably find a different merit badge counselor and a different Troop to finish out their Eagle, because right now they are hurting our Troop more than they are helping it.

I will run this by 3 of the 4 dads tonight. If they aren't going to back me up I won't do it. However, I think they are madder at their sons than I am. One of them is the son of the outgoing Scoutmaster.

Thoughts?

SP,

A couple points. As much as you try to avoid it, some judgement is always involved. What if it is a sports illustrated swimsuit edition? A picture of a girl in a wet t shirt?

I realize that I may have a legal obligation to have a blind zero tolerance policy. I also have a moral and ethical obligation to protect those boys. Both from pedophiles and from people who in their zeal to protect us from pornography would label a 14 year old showing his buddy a playboy as a sex offender.

An economist would say I am making an irrational decision to jeopardize my freedom and net worth to protect the youth from getting his life ruined due to getting caught showing his buddy porn. So be it.

I get where some of you are coming from about erring on the side of youth safety. And I am a former attorney myself, so I even sympathize somewhat with the CYA aspect.

But seriously, anyone who thinks that two 14 year olds looking at porn should be reported to the authorities and potentially subject to being labeled sex offenders by an overly zealous prosecutor needs to quit working with scouts now before you screw up some kids life for doing what all of us were doing at his age.

We have historically done 2 camps. One for the local council camp and one farther afield. The local option is nice for the guys who can't seem to check out of baseball for a week, as they can just leave for an evening and come back a few hours later. It also lets some of the new boys who may have homesickness issues feel like they aren't so far away. The third reason is that having the council camp close by is a great resource, and I want to support them as much as possible. I really push the first years to do the local camp. If they can afford it and do well at the local camp they could then go to the other one, although no one has lately. If I had a first year who could only make the other camp, I would probably send him as long as I wasn't worried about homesickness.

The reason for the second camp is that many of my boys have gone to the local camp every year since they were tigers. And we end up at a couple of things a year out there anyway. They would rather stay home than do another summer camp at the local camp. Plus they need to spread their wings a bit.

This year we have 3 boys doing both. Mostly we end up with first years and a handful of others local, and the rest go out of council.

Thought I would give an update.

Somewhat to my surprise, the changes appear to have stuck. And I haven't had to send any emails or address the issue at a Troop meeting. The adults are giving their announcements to the SPL before the meeting, and the adults are staying at the back of the room. I have probably been the worst offender, sometimes not giving the SPL enough information before the meeting so he has to ask me to make an announcement for something or other. I have also caught myself a couple of times stepping forward to help him out. Fortunately, I only get a couple of words out before I apologize and ask permission to address the Troop. Hopefully as I get a bit more experienced, I will do a better job preparing myself and the SPL so I am not feeling the need to address the Troop. We still have room to improve towards being boy led, but it really feels like we have taken some good steps that direction the last couple of months.

So we had the Troop meeting last night. Overall, it went pretty well. I sent out emails to the parents Thursday, Monday, and Tuesday reminding them to pass along any announcements to the SPL so no adults talked during the meeting. Much to my surprise, all announcements were handled by the SPL. We also had all the adults behind the boys, rather than on the sides where it is easy for the ASM's to add, and easy for the SPL to call on the adults for help. The SM did walk up to the SPL and start giving him info, and eventually the SPL asked him to step back and ask for permission to enter the meeting. I also made a couple of announcements, and my plant asked me why I was giving the information rather than passing it through the SPL. We tried talking loudly enough in the back to have the SPL ask us to be quiet, and everyone except the SPL was staring at us. He just tried to ignore us and keep talking. Eventually we got it straightened out. I suggested to the SPL that he cordon off a quiet area, but I didn't force it and he didn't bite.

Good: The adults all stayed back, and stayed quiet during the meeting (except for a couple of planned interruptions)

Bad: A couple of announcements were botched, the SPL wasn't as prepared and confident as I would have liked to see (sounds like a normal Troop meeting, right)

At the SM minute, I asked who was told by an adult what to do today at school or home (all hands go up). Who wants to come here and have more adults telling you what to do? (all hands go down). I tried to really emphasize to the boys that this was their Troop, not the SM's, not mine, and not their parent's. If they want changes, they need to talk to the SPL and make it happen. They seemed excited, but like was said earlier, a little hesitant to believe that I really mean it. I am hoping if I can keep the adults off their backs for a few more weeks, it may start to sink in that this is their Troop. I don't remember where I saw it, maybe on this forum, maybe Wood Badge, maybe somewhere else, so I apologize for not attributing the quote (and not using it verbatim), but someone said something like "This is supposed to be a club run by the boys, not a club ran by the adults for the benefit of the boys". I am trying to get my boys (and adults) to see that.

I was thinking about having some physical object to indicate authority. Maybe a gavel, maybe something else. I'm thinking of my fraternity meeting days, but basically something to indicate that whoever holds the object holds the floor (95% of the time, the SPL). Make a production of giving it to the SPL, have him hand it to me during SM minute and then I give it back to him. Have him give it to his successor at the Court of Honor when a new SPL is sworn in. I'm kind of thinking out loud on this one. Anyone do this or have any thoughts?

I don't think adding the requirement would be keeping anyone from being 1st class in 6 months (2months at each rank). The problem is that since they work on these ranks at the same time, sometimes you have a scout getting 2 or 3 advancements pretty much simultaneously. We recently did the swimming portions of 1st and 2nd class. Several scouts were tenderfoot, but only needed an hour in the water to become first class. I don't see much need to make them be 2nd class for 2 months before giving them 1st class. Not doing anything positive, just discouraging the boys.

jblake,

I get what you are saying. But I don't think right now the boys are empowered enough to stand up to the adults. I am trying to get them some breathing room. My hope would certainly be that in the future they will be able to handle this. I will point out to the SPL that the PLC can make other changes (or undo mine) if they don't think the meetings are going well.

I do want to address a couple of your points. You asked "What say the boys about these rules?" When I approached the SPL with the proposed changes, his response was a big smile and to say thank you. He wants to run his meeting, but the adults aren't letting him. So I know that at least the SPL (and my 2 boys who are in the Troop) are wholeheartedly on pushing the adults out of their meeting. I know the boys didn't originate the rule. But they don't think they have the authority. That needs to change too. I will tell the SPL that he didn't need to wait for me to step in, he could have done it himself.

Also, we are in serious violation of your rule "have fun". Before that meeting, my son didn't want to go, because he is sick of the adults treating them like little kids. When the ASM was barking at the boys, my son looked at me and mouthed "this is what I am talking about".

The bottom line is that I have some adults who aren't letting the boys run their own meeting. And I don't think they are going to back off unless I tell them to. So that's what I am going to do. I get what you are saying, but I don't think we will get to the point that the boys can take control without this interim step. I may talk to the SPL about the chatter in the room, and let him come up with an appropriate way to deal with that, rather than me making a quiet zone behind the boys. That could include the idea of having the adults go elsewhere, although I think he will get a lot of pushback on that one, and probably the committee will not let him move the adults completely out of the room. Some of my opinionated committee members are the biggest offenders about talking during the meetings.

Our Troop has been moving this way for several years, and I have only been with the Troop a year. The 2 problems we have now are 1 the parents who were here from the beginning where it was a few 11 year olds not realizing that they can step back now, and 2 the couple of adults who have an overwhelming need to make sure everything is run by the boys, but only so long as it is run to the standard of adults. I am taking over as SM probably later this fall. Here is what happened this week. (apologies to those of you who read the story on the introductions forum, but it seemed more relevant here and I am guessing quite a few of you don't read the introduction forum closely)

During the meeting one of the ASM's stepped to the front of the room and barked at the boys (for a valid reason, but I don't care, it wasn't the proper way to handle the situation). We also have many adults making announcements that the boys could handle themselves. And we have adults standing in the wings when the boys are trying to conduct their meeting, making occasional comments (helpful usually, but again not the proper place). Later in the meeting last week when the boys were doing an activity I told the ASM's (and the SM, as I don't hold that role yet), that I was instituting a new rule. From now on, unless a boy is in imminent mortal peril, no one over 18 is to speak at the meeting without raising their hand and waiting to be recognized by the SPL. I am also putting a line behind the last row of boys that no adults are allowed in front of without first raising their hand and asking permission to enter. I have already lined up for the SM to cross the line to talk to the boys without permission, and for the SPL to put him in his place and make him go to the back of the room to ask permission before he crosses the line or addresses the group. I'm also going to make some announcements to the Troop during the meeting, and one of the boys has been planted to ask me why I am giving them the info directly instead of through the SPL. I plan on tying it all together in the SM minute, which will be aimed at the parents as much as the boys. We also have a problem of parents talking too loudly right behind the scouts. So I'm going to partition off a "no talking" zone for about 20 feet behind the last row of boys. Just as well deal with all of my boundary issues at once.

Should be a fun meeting, I'm kind of excited.

Our Troop has been moving this way for several years, and I have only been with the Troop a year. The 2 problems we have now are 1 the parents who were here from the beginning where it was a few 11 year olds not realizing that they can step back now, and 2 the couple of adults who have an overwhelming need to make sure everything is run by the boys, but only so long as it is run to the standard of adults. I am taking over as SM probably later this fall. Here is what happened this week. (apologies to those of you who read the story on the introductions forum, but it seemed more relevant here and I am guessing quite a few of you don't read the introduction forum closely)

During the meeting one of the ASM's stepped to the front of the room and barked at the boys (for a valid reason, but I don't care, it wasn't the proper way to handle the situation). We also have many adults making announcements that the boys could handle themselves. And we have adults standing in the wings when the boys are trying to conduct their meeting, making occasional comments (helpful usually, but again not the proper place). Later in the meeting last week when the boys were doing an activity I told the ASM's (and the SM, as I don't hold that role yet), that I was instituting a new rule. From now on, unless a boy is in imminent mortal peril, no one over 18 is to speak at the meeting without raising their hand and waiting to be recognized by the SPL. I am also putting a line behind the last row of boys that no adults are allowed in front of without first raising their hand and asking permission to enter. I have already lined up for the SM to cross the line to talk to the boys without permission, and for the SPL to put him in his place and make him go to the back of the room to ask permission before he crosses the line or addresses the group. I'm also going to make some announcements to the Troop during the meeting, and one of the boys has been planted to ask me why I am giving them the info directly instead of through the SPL. I plan on tying it all together in the SM minute, which will be aimed at the parents as much as the boys. We also have a problem of parents talking too loudly right behind the scouts. So I'm going to partition off a "no talking" zone for about 20 feet behind the last row of boys. Just as well deal with all of my boundary issues at once.

Should be a fun meeting, I'm kind of excited.

Yeah, interesting that you bring up not talking until the SM minute. Last week one of the ASM's barked at the boys (for a valid reason, but I don't care, it wasn't the proper way to handle the situation) during the meeting. We also have too many adults making announcements that the boys could handle themselves. And we have adults standing in the wings when the boys are trying to conduct their meeting, making occasional comments (helpful usually, but again not the proper place). Later in the meeting last week when the boys were doing an activity I told the ASM's (and the SM, as I don't hold that role yet), that I was instituting a new rule. From now on, unless a boy is in imminent mortal peril, no one over 18 is to speak at the meeting without raising their hand and waiting to be recognized by the SPL. I am also putting a line behind the last row of boys that no adults are allowed in front of without first asking permission to enter. I have already lined up for the SM to cross the line to talk to the boys without permission, and for the SPL to put him in his place and make him go to the back of the room to ask permission before he crosses the line or addresses the group. I'm also going to make some announcements to the Troop during the meeting, and one of the boys has been planted to ask me why I am giving them the info directly instead of through the SPL. I plan on tying it all together in the SM minute, which will be aimed at the parents as much as the boys.

Should be a fun meeting, I'm kind of excited.

A couple of points:

1. If you become the COR, that pretty much makes this a moot point, doesn't it? Because if I became COR of a Troop with that rule, one of my first items of business would be to question the reason for the rule and then to eliminate it. Assuming that your CO will back you. (I'm male, by the way, in case anyone thinks that matters)

2. If that doesn't happen, I think that you can simply decline the invitation when it officially comes, once they make it clear that you are not welcome to attend. I think your obligation to the Webelos is to simply make them aware that there is another pack, and if they want to visit here is the SM's phone number. Your obligation is not to assist this Troop with their recruiting.

3. I would encourage you to become an ASM with the Troop that your son does join. The majority of the ASM's in our troop are male. However, we have a female ASM who is one of the people I can rely on most. She is Wood Badge trained, and goes on probably more than 1/2 the campouts. I think if she was the only leader that wouldn't be good for the boys, but as usually one of 3-5 adults, it frankly gives them a good impression that women are capable of doing things.

3.

Hello all. I've looked here briefly a few times, but just felt compelled to sign up and make a post for the first time (about something in Wood Badge, if you haven't been to the course yet I recommending not reading the "Win All You Can" thread, if you have been, you probably know why I had an experience I felt compelled to post about).

I have been on the committee for a cub scout pack for several years, and followed that role with my oldest son last year when he joined a Troop. I am now an ASM, and will be transitioning to SM sometime in the next year. I'm a bit overwhelmed. As stated above, I'm on my off weekend for Wood Badge.

My Troop has gone from about 6 active boys to around 20-25 in the last few years, largely due to the outgoing SM in my opinion. Big shoes to fill. However, he has had changes in his life that necessitate him not keeping the SM role. He will still be around quite a bit as an ASM, just not as the person with the primary responsibility. I'm taking on the role because I love what he has done with the program. I still see some areas where positive changes can be made, but if I can impact someone else's son the way he has impacted mine then I think I am on the right track. We have a ton of parents who are active, so that is a huge benefit that I have. The biggest areas to improve are transitioning to running a pack with 20-30 boys rather than 5-6. I know that's pretty vague, but if anyone has experience with changing from a small start up Troop to a midsized Troop, I would love suggestions (especially if they can be worked into ticket items)

I just played this last weekend at Wood Badge. I am not a fan. I think our debriefing was ok, but the problem was that I was mad enough at that point that I wasn't really listening to the debriefing that closely. (Note to self - the scouts are probably the same way when I try to explain to them something that they are upset about) I felt that it caused quite a bit of tension between the groups, and was a disconnect with the bonding that we had going.

I won't go as far as some posters have about it being anti-capitalist or whatever, but you have to put things into context. Based on this game, I am not following the Scout Oath and Scout Law if I go to a car dealer and try to mislead him about what my top price would be to purchase a car. We were set up to believe this was a competitive game. Our patrol has a couple of very competitive people in it. We mislead the other patrols and got an advantage the first round after negotiation. After that, we played nice, as did the other patrols. We drew quite a bit of ire for this behavior. I am hoping that this does not follow me home, as a couple of the people who appeared most upset with us are people I need to work together with on a regular basis.

Probably the thing that salvaged the night for me was my scouting mentor (who was on staff) pulling me aside later that evening. He asked me what I got out of it, and I said something about cooperating and everyone wins. He told me he didn't think I got it at all, and asked me to take a walk with him. Basically his take on it was that the Oath and Law matter, 24/7. I'm bungling the quote, but Socrates said said something like "Character is what you do when you think no one is watching." He always reminds the boys of this when they have a scoutmaster conference, and reminds them that those obligations don't end when they walk out the church door at 8:00, or when they turn 18. The Oath and Law are a lifetime commitment. You can't use dishonesty in this situation to get ahead, and then not expect they boys to pick up on that and follow suit. I still think that context matters, but I did see his point. I still hate the game and think it does more harm than good, but for me personally I got a good lesson from him after the exercise was over. I'm not sure about the other 30 people in the room.