SM_Travis

This got put off because of holidays and illness at the Treasurer's house, but is being readdressed. We have a committee meeting this evening. That is when the Treasurer and CC are going to explain the situation to the parents. I'm sure that will go well, especially since the CC is the one who allowed this to happen when he was Treasurer.

It looks like an even bigger problem than I thought, probably $5,000 after we account for a few "negative" scout accounts from boys that have quit and who have parents whom I am guessing will not pay. On the other side, there is over $1,000 in a scout account from a boy I haven't seen in a year. I would like him to return, but I am guessing that his account will end up in the general fund eventually. We have 25 scouts, plus at least 6 Webelos crossing over (possibly more).

The sad thing is that we don't really have a bunch of new shiny equipment to show for this. I think much of this debt is due to the boys not being charged for gas when prices went up a few years ago. There were big $$ being paid in reimbursements to drivers, but that wasn't ever charged to anyone's account. There are also numerous activities that were not charged to any scouts, and others where some of the boys but not all of the boys were charged who attended some event.

I'm going to give a few of these suggestions to the Treasurer and let her take it from there. Part of my issue is that I have a hard time recruiting Webelos when I know they are going to end up eating some of this. I also am having a hard time as a parent pushing my boys to build up their accounts much, since I know there is nothing to back up the Troop's "moral debt" back to the boys. The whole situation is a big distraction from what I am supposed to be doing as SM. Through a combination of poor record keeping and wanting to be generous to some of the active boys who were going on these big trips, a well intentioned Scouter has caused a pretty big problem.

Thanks for the tip, I am guilty of sometimes pushing the envelope on leftovers. However, with this cobbler it was probably colder than my fridge by the time it was finished, and it was a bit frosty in the morning. So I think we were ok.

Update: Made a pork loin roast with rice/vegetable mix for lunch. Dinner was beef stew and biscuits. Cobblers for desert/left over cobbler for breakfast, along with quiche. Spent less than $8 per Scout. Boys all were impressed. Hopefully we will see the food improve at campouts. Also we are going to try the "pick an item to make" idea from above. Also going to try a "mystery ingredient" that each patrol gets a few weeks before the campout that has to be incorporated into the menu. Maybe give some special prize or privilege to the winner of the best dish using the ingredient (as judged by the SM, of course).

More information: I just spoke with the treasurer. I don't think this accounts for everything, but there are numerous scout accounts that are negative. Some should be easy to collect (my boys are down about $70, I think that is because they didn't get credited for a couple of fundraisers last year, but I'm just letting it go at this point and will make them current). Others will be difficult, like one scout who quit owing $400 and another that transferred Troops owing $350. Why those were allowed to happen I have no idea. I think with the current Treasurer Scouts won't be allowed to run a big deficit in their personal accounts. I have a bad feeling that the Troop is going to end up eating at least $1,000 from boys who have quit the program. Maybe 1/2 of the rest is from Scouts like mine that don't know they are in the red, and the other 1/2 is a true spending more than we make problem.

We don't pay for summer camp. But I am guessing that at least $2000 of the $3000 in scout accounts will need to be paid out for summer camp. And right now we can't cover it.

Clarification - I know the scouts can't "cash out", but they can draw down for summer camp, etc. Last year we spent over $5,000 on summer camps, so I can see us needing to fund some of the $2300 "moral debt" that exceeds our funds in the next several months.

Another question. I am Scoutmaster, as of a week ago. The old treasurer is now committee chair, and a new treasurer has just come on. How do I handle this without overstepping my bounds? The old SM pretty much left this to the committee, I'm not sure if he is even aware of the situation. I think it needs fixed, I just want to do it without causing extra drama with the adults. I'm going to get together with the new treasurer in the next few days and discuss with her. She is freaked out by the situation and wants it fixed.(This message has been edited by SM_Travis)

Thanks for the replies. I have not inserted myself into the situation yet, so I can't say with 100% certainty, but my understanding based on talks with the new and outgoing treasurer is that we are in the red about $2300 if we were to need to pay out all the scout accounts.

We give the boys 90% of their popcorn money, and there are a few Troop level incentives on top of that, so the Troop ends up making not much off of that. We have a soup supper where the boys keep 75% of the ticket price, after we buy soup I don't know if the Troop has enough to break even. Other fundraisers the boys keep 80%.

We do charge the boys dues to their accounts. The troop pays the registration fee for the adults. The troop pays for patches, etc.

I would love to see more responses as to how fundraisers are split up, and as to what the troop pays for and what the boys pay for. Obviously what we have been doing isn't working.

We have what I think us a pretty normal system for keeping track of fundraising done by the boys. When we do fundraising, the money goes into their account, with a small amount going to the Troop for general expenses. I just found out we have $700 in the Troop checking account, but collectively the boys should have $3000 in their accounts (this is pre popcorn numbers). I have a couple of couple of questions:

Is this deficit normal?

How much does your Troop keep when the boys do fundraising?

FYI - I don't think the money has been taken. I just think we have been running at a deficit and not dealing with the fact that we need more Troop level funding.

I've had a couple of other posts about this. I'm having a campout for the PLC -- SPL, 2 ASPL's and 5 PL's. I'm not sure exactly I should be doing with them (Troop hasn't done this before). What I really want them to do is to take more ownership of the program. In the past it has been more the SPL working with the SM, with not much input from the PLC. My ultimate goal is for them to embrace taking control of the Troop.

We have a very sketchy annual calendar, so that is going to get addressed. Also, the meetings have been planned last minute. I'm going to have them look at the program guide and set meetings for the next couple of months. What else should I have them be doing? What does your PLC do?

We are having a PLC campout this weekend, at our regular campground. Some of the things I want them to do are plan the annual calendar (what we have currently is a joke) and plan the next 2 months of meetings. What I really want them to do is to take ownership of the program. We have not had a PLC that did much for a while. It has been an SPL run Troop, with quite a bit of involvement from the SM and ASMs. There are some tasks I want them to accomplish, but this is the real purpose. To let them know that they have the reins.

I am encouraged by the fact that my new SPL asked if we could camp in a different spot, so that the leaders' tent was not right next to the Scouts' tents. I have been talking to them the last couple of campouts about how we need to spread out, it's nice to see that he was listening.

When I said low quality I was thinking about the tortilla pizzas they always seem to make. Tortilla, dump on pizza sauce, precooked sausage and cheese, warm up and eat. They also almost always do breakfast burritos. That's not bad, but I think some of those patrols have had breakfast burritos on their menu for every campout this year. They need some imagination.

We don't normally allow hot dogs or poptarts. You aren't learning anything by eating something already precooked. Depending on what we are doing, sometimes we allow for cold sandwiches based on time constraints. So it's not that they aren't cooking, they just aren't cooking much quality or variety.

This next weekend I am taking the PLC on a planning retreat campout. One ASM and I will be with them, and will be doing all of the cooking. I would like to give them some good ideas of fairly easy to prepare food that would step up what they are eating when they cook. They seem to do the same low quality meals every month.

I am a reasonably good cook, but not very experienced with camp cooking. I also tend to use ingredients that would not appeal to the boys and may be out of their price range. We will have access to propane stoves and fires for dutch ovens. Any ideas for some easy to prepare, cheap to make dishes that might spark a PL to step up the cooking his patrol does at the next campout?

I would be afraid the debate could run negative pretty easily. We have the boys address the Troop. Last time we asked them to discuss their strengths and weaknesses, and tell the guys why they thought they should be SPL. I was impressed with how insightful some of them were about strengths and weaknesses and how they affect the troop. The boy who won was the only one who had well prepared with a 60 second speech about what he planned on doing for the troop. I think the speech helps weed out the guys who want the resume entry but haven't thought about the responsibility.

Thanks Packsaddle.

I agree that it's pretty hard to have a meaningful conversation without more info. Maybe I am giving BSA too much credit, but if this is Eagle required (at least as an alternate) I would think they are going to make this a real merit badge somewhat equivalent to Environmental Science. I would be surprised if it becomes fluff or political like some people are afraid of.(This message has been edited by SM_Travis)

Seriously, take it somewhere else. The Internet is full of places for you to compare me to a North Korean dictator. This isn't supposed to be one of them.

CC -- Not to sound like a jerk, but take your propaganda to the issues forum. I avoid it for a reason, and this is why. Please keep the rest of this scouting related. And btw, TR may have been a republican, but he was a progressive, not a conservative (his words, not mine). He would not find a welcome home in the current Republican Party.

I get what you are saying and agree to a point. But another 6 months as we were going probably would have cost us 1/2 the Troop. We had to do something that worked with the resources we had. It was decided by a vote of the boys to try this for 1 year and to reevaluate.

I am usually the adult advocating for us to do the program as intended. Now that I am SM, I should prevail more frequently. However, I don't necessarily think the BSA program is infallible, and there are times when if you refuse to be flexible you can run the program into the ground.

Lol Seattle. The election was a bit over a week ago, these boys haven't even officially taken over their positions. They were functioning in them at the campout this past weekend because the SPL was not there.

So I we have 6 months and one week before their 6 month term ends. I'm sure that there will be more drama to unfold. Hopefully they will both learn to tone it down and work for the betterment of the Troop. They ran the meeting two nights ago (again SPL not there) together without major drama. Either way both boys should emerge better for it. Just driving me nuts!

I'm guessing that this "rule" transferred from Cubs. I would doubt that the CO would have set the rule. The consensus of the adults (including the outgoing SM) was that this was a BSA rule. If it is not, then I am more comfortable letting in slide and if someone wants to challenge me on it then I can give them the task of finding out whose rule it is. I would guess it is "unwritten", or in other words, not really a rule at all.

Compared to where they were 4 years ago, this is a very boy led Troop. Compared to where I want to take them, there is still a long road ahead. Getting rid of 1/2 of the parents at campouts is a small step the right direction. Not that they are necessarily a problem, but it's hard to keep that many parents away from the Scouts (and the Scouts away from their parents). It also gives us less of a family camp/babysit feel if there aren't as many adults.

Our Troop seems to think there is a rule like I stated, no more than 1:5. I have just always accepted it. But when I mentioned that I couldn't find it anywhere in writing, everyone looked at me like I was on crack. Good to hear that it isn't necessary. Not that we don't usually hit it, but there are times (the local summer camp, in particular) where we struggled to have our necessary 3 or 4 leaders there at all times. Now I'm not going to worry about it.

We more commonly have the problem of too many adults. Never 1:1, but 1:3 is normal. Last weekend I had 5 adults and 13 Scouts. That's too many adults for me to keep them all away from the boys. Someone always manages to sneak by me so they can "help".

I know we need at least 2 leaders regardless of the number of youth. My question is whether we need more with a larger group. I have always believed that we needed a maximum of 5 youth per adult. So 1-10 Scouts need 2 adults, 11-15 Scouts need 3 adults, 16-20 Scouts we need 4, and so on. I can't seem to find this in writing, although I haven't looked that hard. Is this right or am I adding a requirement?

I know we need at least 2 leaders regardless of the number of youth. My question is whether we need more with a larger group. I have always believed that we needed a maximum of 5 youth per adult. So 1-10 Scouts need 2 adults, 11-15 Scouts need 3 adults, 16-20 Scouts we need 4, and so on. I can't seem to find this in writing, although I haven't looked that hard. Is this right or am I adding a requirement?

Stosh - I agree with everything you said. But at the time I didn't know enough (or have the standing) to do it. That is how either problem would be handled if it came up in the Troop now.

Was - I disagree on 2 levels. First, As SM it's my job to give guidance but not to tell which Scouts to run or not run. FWIW, my boy would have been my 2nd choice to win. However, I think once he realizes he has to be ASPL first before he is SPL he will be fine.

Second, maybe you have had an easier time than me, but I've spent quite a bit of time working for bosses that I had trouble respecting. Somebody once told me, "If I only judged my job by how much I liked my boss, I'd still be a lifeguard at the public pool. (his summer job at age 15)" I knew these 2 Scouts would have some difficulties, although they appear to be more than I realized. However, learning how to deal with that is part of life. Even though the next few weeks may be ugly, I think both boys will grow from this experience, and the Troop will be better off having 2 more seasoned leaders.

The outgoing SM and I discussed this situation and agreed that it would be better for him to handle it. Not really from the point of view of my son, more to avoid the other Scout's parents telling the Scout to ignore me because I am favoring my son. I overheard about 1/2 of the conversation, and it seemed like it was pretty balanced towards teaching both boys to get along. Show respect for leader, don't just make arbitrary decisions and expect everyone to follow, etc. Actually used some of the things you guys said above.

Later in the evening I told my boy that by disrespecting the SPL he is making my job of moving us towards being more boy led more difficult. THAT seemed to sink in. So hopefully he will just QUIETLY think the SPL is an idiot for the next 6 months, rather than making sure everyone knows his feelings.

Thanks for all the advice.

Well, a couple of days to cool down before I had a chance to meet with the boys was probably a good thing. We had more of a conversation than a butt chewing. It started with letting them dig a bit of a hole on how much it stinks when they are let down by someone they look up to. Then they realized that we were really talking about them. I think that at least on some level they didn't realize how much they were hurting the Troop, and how they made the boy who did show up feel stupid for caring. I think they see the harm they caused, and they did seek out the jilted scout before the Troop meeting to apologize for standing him up.

We did talk about some of the source of the problem, which is basically that these guys are bored silly on our regular campouts. We talked about some different things they could do. I brought up the 300 feet issue, which our Troop has never done (I'm working on it). I also told them if they wanted to do their own schedule that might involve sleeping later or doing other "privileges" that were not given to the rest of the Troop I would consider any request, with a bias towards letting them do their own thing.

I told them that we could resume the merit badge in a few weeks, as long as they started showing scout spirit that I would not be embarrassed to sign off on. We'll see what happens.