SMT376Richmond KY

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I know what you mean by trashy Scouts. Here in my area I have seen some very trashy Scouts. It seems that alot of Troops are not impacting stweardship of the environment much. We constantly are finding trash at camporees and at summer camp last week the place was trashed with stuff from the trading post. The Troop sharing our campsite wasn't very good at cleaning the place up. They left the night prior and didn't do a trash walk down.

When I was a Scout MR. Woods our SM would rip you a new one if you droped trash or even left trash in camp and didn't pick it up. I'm starting to believe that many SM's are gaffing off leave no trace. The leaders are as much to blame as the Scouts in this one for not properly teaching fire safety and when to use a fire or camp stove. This would be a good teaching tool as this is a Second class requirement. The summer camp and Scouts should have been aware of the fire risks and not had a fire. However, I was at a family camp out once when I was Cubmaster with a high fire risk even too high for a burn barrell and when I wouldn't let the boys build a fire a high falutin (SP) mother was quite upset that we were not having a fire. When I told her the risk was too high she said "so they should have a fire". Doo! She didn't get it as I have found many, now I don't mean to tick anyone off her, "yuppies" just plain don't care or don't and never will get it.

OK off soap box.

Thanks lasteagle. This is sad indeed that this happened. I hope the Scouts and leaders are all doing well. Hopefully the investigation will be posted as well so we can use it as a learing opportunity. The story is ambiguous where they on a trail or climbing. If climbing why wasn't this lad belayed? If they were free climbing, from recent BSA climb on safely training this is not allowed. It will be interesting to read the results of the investigation. this would give this boys family some comfort. Sad indeed.

Anyone have any details on the report in my sunday paper of a Scout falling apporx 2000 ft to his death in Utah? The story in my paper was just a few lines and no details of what happened. Would like to know what went wrong so as not to have it happen on one of our outings. My prayers go out to the Scouts parents, family and Troop.

Tenderfoot scout at last weeks summer camp telling one of the ASM's that he found a Brown Rectum spider in his tent.

I'll start off with don't take this the wrong way, but with all the women volunteers and professional staff around in Boy Scouts. Why does not BSA just change from Boy Scouts to just plain Scouts and allow girls 11-17 as well join. I volunteer in my daughters GS Troop as well. She many times asks if she could come along on the BS Troop outings as the girls in her Troop are, these are her words now "to sissyfied". She has 4 that insist on having makeover parties during camp and don't like to camp in tents, go hiking, canoeing etc.

I've told my daughter to join a venturing crew but she want's to finish her gold and doesn't want to take on another activity now at 16. She started complaining at 12 that the "girls" always shoot down anything "cool".

Update!! Since I was at council yesterday afterwork turning in final SC paperwork. I decided to resubmit the tour permit and our float plan for the canoe trip I had mentioned in my orginal post. Guess what? The permit was approved this time around with no questions asked! It was the exact same wording we used last month nothing had been changed from the orginal that was denied as "high adventure activity". After I had the approval in hand I asked why it was denied last month. I didn't really understand the answer it sounded like gobble-d-goop to me. Oh well the permit was approved and the trip is on for July perhaps since I had my copy of G2SS that I took the tour permit out of in front of them they knew that I was armed and dangerous. Thanks for the ideas guys.

I want to clear a point on my post. When I said "what do I do not file tour permits?" I was being facetious. I will continue to turn in tour permits for outings. I would be setting a poor example for the boys if, because I didn't agree with a rule, that I simply break it for our benifit. Are we not to teach them as part of citizenship that if they disagree with a rule, policy or law that they obey it until they work to change in it? Our tour permit will be turned into this afternoon I should know something soon. But please do not misunderstand that I condone putting myself or any other adult leader in jeopardy for lack of a tour permit. We simply would cancel the event if we do not have a tour permit. That is our task that the PLC assigns when planning events so if we drop the ball it is our responsibility to take the heat with the boys.

The Troop I serve makes a budget for outings including gas and any Troop gear needed if we do not already have it or can obtain it on loan from a benovolent benifactor in town. Personal gear is just that personal gear. The Troop just can't afford to outfit every member with gear. We do fund Troop T shirts after a fundraiser and the PLC has decided what that fundrasier is to be used for. On outings everyone pays what the cost would be for the group the more that participate the lower the individual cost including gas for those driving.

Now as far as the extra's go I have personally donated most of the equipment the Troop has in it's quartermaster locker except for the tents they boys held a fundraiser for. For me it was a pleasure as the enjoyment the boys have had and the look on their eyes when they saw the equipment santa left them was far more worthwile than the tax deduction I received from the IRS for my volunteer time that I give to Scouting. In fact, most trips I fill the tank myself and then forget to write the mileage down so I do not get the deduction any way but the other benifit is far more worthwile.

Thanks to everyone that posted a reply. I learned alot. I now have some ammunition to use if needed I will be taking the canoeing merit badge book and my copy of G2SS with me when I resubmit the tour permit and float plan for the canoe trip that we planned for May. We're going to resubmit it for July's activity (nice hot weather activity huh)? If it comes back unapproved I'll post again but it I will not stand for "high adventure activity" as a reason for denial. Thanks again

Ahhh now I remember Eagle, thanks for reminding me. That's what my council as a youth when I was a Life scout merged into. I can see the summer camp restrictions and perhaps a "special program" restriction but when the Troop tries to do some of these things the boys were sold on itself and gets shot down for something that's not in G2SS then I get a little miffed especially when I have to constantly tell the boys "no council says we can't do that till your 14." Come to think of it no wonder they don't come up with any ideas anymore we constantly. With my next tour permit I'm going to take my rolled up G2SS with me when I turn it in so the Nazi says no I'll have some ammunition. The boys want to take a canoe trip so I'm going to try it again with this amminution and see what goes.

Further follow up (ff/u) This is what I found on national's web site http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?c=xds&terms=high+adventure titled Scouting's Adventures for Older Boy Scouts Older Scouts (those who are at least 13 years old or have completed the seventh grade) seek challenge and variety. How does Scouting capture their interest? Through diverse high-adventure and outdoor opportunities. Scouting not only provides adventure but also emphasizes values through ideals that reinforce God, country, and personal growth. I double checked my hard copy of G2SS and the web link I can't find any metion of this 13 year old limitation. I'll take some of your ideas and present them to our UC he's very supportive and helpful. Since SC is in a couple of weeks I'll attack this one when we arrive at the Scoutmasters meetings. As far as training goes we seem sufficiently trained except for BSA lifeguard which one ASM is doing at SC this year. The ASM that is rifle certified took the couse at National Camping School so I'm sure he knows his stuff of certainly they would not have let him pass. As far as planning goes I thought we had planned everything correctly we consulted G2SS didn't find any restrictions completed our tour permits with our SSD/SA card numbers training was not mentioned in the denial not even for the outfitter!

Bob, f/u=follow up. Not what you thought. We use it frequently in my professional life as a nurse. I certainly would not use the conotation you took and I'm sorry you took it that way I do not use that type of language. I hold my self to the same standards as the Scouts I serve and that language is certainly not helpful, friendly, curteous, nor kind. As to the MB's, yes the books have no age restrictions I know but the age restrictions are posted in our councils summer camp merit badge requirements list that is in the summer camp leaders packet. Also, council on numberous occasions has instructed that "shooting activities can only take place at resident camps on an approved range under the instruction of a BSA instructor". The denied tour permits were denied hand written statement across the top was the "these activities are high adventure and thus are limited to Scouts 14 and older". Since we only have 11-12 year olds and the council knows this that's why we were denied. GSS does limit caving beyond simple guided tours to Scouts greater than 14 so perhaps this is where council is getting their ideas.

F/U Bob our Council denied our tour permits due to age restrictions for two canoeing trips. One on a tibutary of the KY river that you can stand up in and is mid thigh deep very slow moving water, and another trip to an outfitter for class 1 rapids. Council also would not allow the boys to register for the councils ski/snow tubing trip this winter due to the age restrictions. Summer camp program has the age restrictions on the MB's I mentioned. Training we have trained leaders myself Boy Scout leader essentials, woodbadge, YPT, Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat, CPR certified for heatlh care practioner, certified pediatric trauma nurse and one ASM Boy Scout leader essentials, woodbadge, YPT, Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat, CPR certified for heatlh care practioner, who also is a BSA certified rifle range instructor, as well as an EMT/firefighter, and ceritifed in water rescue as a firfighter. Another ASM has Boy Scout leader essentials, YPT, Safe swim defense and safety afloat and was a Star scout. Our other ASM is a firefighter also Boy Scout leader essentials, CPR and YPT. So I think we are well trained. If council is putting on these restrictions and not national then something is rotten in KY then. Eagle have you not had this occur? I thought we were served by the same council?

Our activities have been mainly camping since we started the troop. Several hiking trips including the trail gaining elevation or 950+ feet. Swimming, communtiy service projects flags on veterans graves, road side clean ups, toys for tots. Like I said all the tour permits I submit to council for higher stuff are disapproved. What should we do not turn in tour permits?

I throw this out to ponder for the group. The troop recently lost 3 boys and held a school roundup at the area elementary for the 5th graders before they get to Middle school. Out of 50 boys that attended the presentation no one showed up that evening with or without parents to sign up for boy scouts.

The 3 boys that left the troop told me they were leaving cause they never get to do the stuff the DE told them they could do when he came to school. White water rafting, shooting, rapelling etc. All high adventure stuff that they are not allowed to do due to their ages being under 14. They told me they were tired of camping and hiking yet when asked for age appropriate activities that they wished to do during program planning in February they had no ideas.

So my question is, if we are not targeting the higher age boys (DE says you can't get middle school or high school boys by a round ups) then why the heck is he selling high adventure activities to 5th graders that can't participate in these for 3-4 years then they leave disenchanted. When I asked he told me that was the program. No one would join with out showcasing high adventure stuff. Two dropped out of summer camp cause they couldn't do the rifleing MB, climbing, or motorboating due to the age restirctions. These boys were all just 3-4 requirements short of FC so MB's are obviously what is next for them. Beside FC first year would put a 12 you up for these MB's. Ideas?

It's been awhile so I thought I'd update everyone on the "rigged" election and our bullying Eagle PL. I had a nice SM conference with the Joe on his bullying behavior after I elightened and provided highlighted the appropriate section of G2SS for each boy.

I informed Joe during the SM conference tht I was a little concerned about his recent unscout like behaviors. I even provided examples of which scout laws and part of the oath he was defecient in. We discussed how living the scout oath and law were part of advancement and that since he was up for advancement to Second class we're new and have no first class or higher scouts)his unscout like behavior did not meet the requirement of demostrating scout spirit. He hem hauld around trying to deny he was having any problem until I brought us a specific incident that occured during out most recent car wash in which he purposefull broke a plastic 5 gal bucket that belonged to our CO. I saw him do this maliciously and called it to his attention at the time in which he said "I didn't do it". Which he recanted once I informed him I was looking right at you when you stomped on it. He agreed that he was after all not doing what he should and wanted to know what he needed to do to improve. I told him remember the law and oath and live them.

Update is it's been three weeks and there have been no more incidents from Joe. In fact, he showed great leadership on a recent recruitin hike with 5 new boys. He actually showed them the correct paths and things to avoid etc. I had another SM conference this past Monday night and Informed him that in the past 3 weeks he has shown inprovement in his scout spirit and that he was clearly ready for his Second class BOR which is scheduled our next one is set for in two weeks. So it worked boy changed his behavor and we have a new leader that is able to teach something he has learned to others.

Hi all

Being Chair of the district camporees I'm trying to come up with some new ideas for activities for the fall camporee in October (I believe in early planning for a great camporee). Anyway since it's an olympic year and the theme for October is athletics I thought nothing better than a Scout Olympics We traditonally do first aid, lashing, blind fold tent, orienteering course etc for camporees but I'd like something different for this one. So I'd like to pick your brains for some really neat ideas that the boys wouldn't normally get to do that often seeing how olympics are every 4 years.

We have the McKee Scout reservation book so we have plenty of room.

Thanks

Just thought I'd clarify an item or two. We are a small new troop started last March. We only have young boys 11-12 year olds. We started with 12 boys so after about 3 months had them elect to start patrols and chose patrol members (drew names from a hat their choice of method). As stated in my post we've had two move and two drop out for various reasons. Two had joined during the year and have decided that baseball is more of what they are into. We actually have a total of 9 but two were absent from the meeting.

I really don't care that my son wasn't elected SPL as I told him he will have plenty of opportunities and besides the POR's at this point are so they can gain experience in leadership and will not count for rank advance for S,L,E as you have to been in a POR for 6 mo as a FC,S,L.

At our SM meeting we have been discusing creating a new patrol if we do not pick up any new boys in next weeks roundup and only having one patrol for the 9 scouts we have. As far as Joe goes he wants his buddy to be SPL as he is pressing him to make him ASPL which we have told him will not occur for some time as we are not a large enough troop to need an ASPL.

I'm going to have a SM conference with Joe and the reelected SPL and the other newly elected PL of the Cobra's on their expectations. I handed them their POR handbooks after the meeting and asked them to read them (knowing full well I can't force them to). Then each will know what is expected and Joe will be receivng a little extra attention. Also, I can't see sending Joe to BOR as I take the responsibility assuring to the BOR that he has met all requirements for rank and clearly SS in a requirement that this lad is lacking in.

Uncleguinea

I'll relate a good reason for the date and day on the watch. Prior to moving to a management position I was an ER nurse. Working in a level 1 trauma center we took care of very seriously injured patients and many near death or dying ones. One night about 2:30 AM (as usual) we had a UFO (unidentified falling Ohioan seems they like to come to Red River Gorge famous for 60-100 foot drop offs from the trail)flown in with sever head trauma. Normal procedure is to assess some ones mental status by asking them simple questions and to see if they are oriented to person, place and time. Now we the nursing staff do this every 15 minutes and of course a neuro surgon wants to do their own assessment and not trust the judgement of a lowly nurse that has been treating the patient for two hours during the truama work up.

When the neurosurgon asked the patient what day it was, without missing a beat the fellow held up his arm looked on his watch and answered "according to my watch it's 5:30AM on Saturday morning." We all broke out laughing.

Actually a Webelos that has earned the AOL they have done everything for the scout rank all they have to do bascially is turn in the application. The other requirements are the same for the AOL. With a good Webelos den that camps etc. the boys should be able to earn tenderfoot right away. We had two new Webelos come in and we just happend to be going camping in two weeks. They had Scout the first meeting and worked on the tenderfoot physical reguirements that night too! Went to camp out and next month had tenure for physical requirements and showed inprovement. But to come in and be a tenderfoot right off I don't see how.

Thanks KS. I agree there's nothing we can do about this election but you can sure bet there will be an election booth at the next one. Joe's dad is one of our ASM's and he and I discussed his behavior after our last campout. He agreed with holding him from BOR for second class due to his lack of scout spirit. He had already left after last nights meeting so I'll have to talk with him later regarding this episode. I'm considering a SM conference with Joe to inform him that his behavior is going to be watched closer.

Need some opinions on how to handle this one. We had Troop elections last night. The problem involves the race for SPL. It was between two boys, my son and the current SPL. Let me start off my saying I was quite surprised when my son threw his hat in the ring and he made a very convencing presentation on why he thought he would be a good SPL ("I'm a second class (all we have are tenderfoots and scouts)and am trustworthy, and will respect others and if there are any arguments I will listen to both sides and help you come to an agreement.") Pretty good for a 12 year old thus far and I didn't coach him on that he developed his own speech.

It was a close race 4 to 3 infavor of the current SPL who is 12.5 and second class as well. My son took the loss like a man and heartly congratulated his opponent. I couldn't have been more proud of him when he did this on his own.

After the meeting the boys were playing the post meeting game of football when my son came back into the hall and informed me and another leader that "Johnny told me he wanted to vote for me for SPL but his PL Joe told him "if you vote for SM son I'll punch you in the face." Johnny is a new webelos cross over who has only been in the Troop since February and happens to be a good friend of my son. I asked Johnny on my way out if anyone forced him to change his vote and he said "No" but I'm not sure if he would actually say anything out of fear of being beat up.

On our recent camp out Joe was bully 3 other boys and it was brought to his attention that 1. it is not tolerated in Scouts 2. he will not be going before BOR for Second class as he is not showing scout sprit.

Now the question how would you folks handle the rigged elections? Also, I'm considering removing Joe from his PL office as he is clearly not setting a good example for his patrol or the Troop.

Thanks

Nope the boys hate it.

We had a smilar incident with our fall camporee. We were told by our DE that if we set camporee fees higher then the profits from camporee could be used to purchase training materials for our defunked district training program. When it came time to purchase the manuals etc. there was no money and line item for the district stuff at all. Thus we have decided to do camporee's as cheap as possiable since a Scout is Thrifty. I personally have lots of boys that can't make camporee at $15-20 per Scout.

I'd say since your COPE course makes a profit call for an audit to find out where the money went. They'll have to account for it. If they won't audit and tip to the local news media on possiable missing money at the local council is always and option. Happened at our Council last year.

Don't think I'd be using that dive service again nor those dive buddies. Gee wiz how can you forget a diver that entered the water with you? Be interesting to hear how this turns out. Good example of the buddy system to use for the boys though.

I'm looking for ideas to get the boys to take a more active role in the Troop. The Troop is now a year old (all were 11 when started) and we have been guiding them to boy lead. They have had PLC and leaders and JLT however, at the PLC they sit and look at each other. The only discusions that occur happen when I (SM) bring something up. How do you get a group on young Scouts to run it themselves?