SM in NJ

Congratulations on your Eagle Horizon. I'm sure you worked very hard for it. The only problem I have with the way that your Troop was run was the MB counselors spoon fed to the boys at every event. Part of the experience (and EDUCATION) of the MB is to get the boys to do their work and then contact the counselor on their own to set up a meeting to review their work. This helps to prepare them to make calls to set up meetings and interviews as adults. By having a staff of councelors sitting in wait for the boys defeats this purpose and takes that learning experience away from them. It wasn't so much the providing the water for them to drink as it was taking away the experience of digging the well themselves that I have issue with.

Other than that ... it sounds like a very well run and organized unit that used its resources to their fullest. Well done.

SMNJ

I'll jump in on this one too ... actually both beavah and Bob White are correct in a sense. Here is a direct quote from the Troop Committee Guidebook as to the Committee's responsibilities "The troop committee does the following:

1) Ensures that quality adult leadership is recruited and trained. In case the Scoutmaster is absent, a qualified assistant Scoutmaster is assigned.

2) Provides adequate meeting facilities.

3) Advises the Scoutmaster on policies related to Boy Scouting the the charter organization.

4) Supports leaders in carrying out the program.

5) Is responsible for finances, adequate funds, and disbursements.

6) Ensures the troop has an outdoor program (with a minimum of 10 days and nights per year).

7) Supports the Scoutmaster in working with individual boys and problems that may affect the over program.

8) Assists the Scoutmaster with handling boy behavioral problems.

9) Serves on boards of review and courts of honor.

10) Provides for the special needs and assistance some boys may require.

Now ... I see the word "support" an awful lot as it relates to the Scoutmaster. I also see "assist" and "advise." Beyond the statement that the CC ensures that quality adult leadership is recruited and trained there is nothing that says the CC supervises or has any dominion over the SM. As a matter of fact the Committee Guidebook states that it is the CO that "owns" the troop and that it is the CO's responsibility to "assure a meeting place, select a Scoutmaster based on the committee's recommendation, appoint a troop committee of at least three adults, and choose a charter organization representative."

Now ... the Scoutmaster Handbook states that the "relationship between the Scoutmaster and troop committee should be one of friendship and trust. Difficult issues are sure to confront troop leaders now and then. The Scoutmaster should be able to turn to the committee at any time for assistance, support, and encouragement." Nowhere in there does it say that the SM has to go to the committee or the CC for permission or direction or that the SM "reports" in anyway to the CC.

If anything, the way that I read the material - the SM and the CC are on equal footing with the SM in charge of running the Scouting program while the CC is in charge of handling the business end of the troop. With both individuals being in place at the discretion of the CO and the COR.

So ... getting to the issue at hand - I think that Victonate should have a long heart-to-heart with the SM as to what each expects from the other. If in fact the SM does not have the proper amount of time to devote to the job then perhaps he should delegate more to his ASMs. If that is not possible then perhaps additional alternatives could be discussed. If that is not possible then the COR should be brought into the discussion as both of yours "boss." At the very least the SM's wife (the ex-CM) should be reminded that she no longer holds that position and should leave well enough alone.

JMHO

SMNJ(This message has been edited by SM in NJ)

Excuse me fgoodwin but did I read this correctly???

"I suspect part of the reason is that the SM sits on all BORs and his presence probably discourages the boys from openly criticizing the program"

Your Scoutmaster absolutely should NOT be sitting in on BoRs. BSA states so in his training and he should know better. The reason is exactly what you fear. The Scout should be in a position at a BoR to offer his true feelings on whatever topic is raised. With a SM sitting as an apparent judge (even if he doesn't say anything or offer any opinion) his presence alone is enough to intimidate ANY Scout. Your Advancement Chair also should know better than to allow the SM to sit in on a Board.

You should discuss this with the SM and with your AC and put an immediate stop to this practice. If you feel that you cannot for some reason approach either of these individuals then contact either your UC or your DE. They should be more than willing to assist you.

SMNJ

Calico brings up a very valid point ... are there any ACMs? If so, what is there function within the Pack.

Also as has been pointed out - the DLs should have been behind this person from the get go. Apparently they were not and for that, they should all be ashamed of themselves. Its all well and good for them to point fingers at the CM and say he's doing a poor job and whine about wanting to go elsewhere ... but what have THEY done to improve a situation to which they have contributed? It sounds like they've done nothing but complain.

You as the apparent voice of some reason need to bring everyone together and get your Pack working in a proper fashion. That means a proper division of responsabilities ... starting with a trained CC and proper board.

SMNJ

Hi KISMIF -

Interesting dilemma you've got. As someone who was an ACM for the 6 yrs my son was in Cubs (and now SM for the better part of 3 yrs), I've had a bit of experience dealing with what appear to be less than qualified individuals. When I was an ACM our CM was beyond less than respected (nor was he respectful of others), however (and unfortunately) no one was willing to ask him to step aside. As a consequence, we were forced to "work around" him. In my case, we were fortunate that we had a solid group of Assistants as well as a solid (and separate) committee. This made "marginalizing" the CM's less than stellar performance much easier.

In your situation, I'd say the first thing you need to do is make sure that your Pack as an executive committee that is NOT the uniformed leadership. Forty Scouts = 80 parents. Surely you should be able to get other parents involved from and organizational standpoint. It seems to me that your CM is doing alot more than he should be, as has been mentioned by others, I think your SM is probably overwhelmed and possibly in a position that he wasn't really interested in taking over in the first place.

I wouldn't worry about "going behind the CM's back." Your loyalty needs to be to the boys and to the Pack. Hurting an adult's feelings should the last thing you worry about. Definitely get in touch with your local Council and see what they can do to help. Perhaps the DC or UC can get involved in straightening things out.

Also talk with your COR ... after all HE had to approve the CM before he could take over in the first place. Perhaps the COR can have a word with the CM to see if he feels overwhelmed.

Though, I do believe your first course of action should be to establish a separate committee that is independent of the uniformed leadership.

JMO

SMNJ

Wasn't quite sure if that was a reference to The Boss or if acco40 had figured out what Troop I am from and actually knows a Bruce from our Troop (I do know of several). Usually you don't get alot of people from Michigan making Springsteen/NJ references. : - ) Besides ... Bruce is spending most of his days now in LA with BonJovi!

SMNJ

Acco40, you are correct ... "[T]he Scoutmaster and their assistants do NOT sit on Boards of Review ... f you feel that the Scout should not pass a BOR, due to actions of the Scout himself or the Scoutmaster, you do not have to have the Scout pass the review." This is aboslutely correct - assuming that the individual in question is sitting on the BoR for that Scout. The point that I was making was, that if the Scout had his SMC, the BoR passed him for advancemt and person filing the paperwork did not SIT on the BoR, it is not up to that person to make an individual determination that that Scout should not be awarded his rank based on his/her own personal feelings.

As I'd stated - the culture of this Troop needs to be changed and that has to start by addressing the issue at the leadership/committee level.

As a further note - while this may be a topic for a new thread ... item 3 on Joni4TA's examples (the MB Weekend) is exactly the reason that I discourage my boys from attending these functions. I've seen far to many "merit badge fleamarkets" for me to lend my support to such an event. Our Troop had an issue 3-4 years ago where a group of our boys went to a merit badge fair - earned a bunch of badges - and at the end of the day it turned out that because the event was so heavily attended and poorly coordinated that a majority of the people signing bluecards weren't even registered mb counselors! There isn't enough room to go into the problems that were caused by this snafu. Suffice as to say from that day forward our Troop has not attended another MB fair as a group!

SMNJ

I'll jump in on this one ... I've actually put this question to my Scouts on several occassions. There has been more than once in the 4+ years that I've been a leader in our Troop that we've been at functions where our boys were in uniform (in my opinion you are either in uniform or not - there is no partial uniform) and other units simply had their shirts on. When I asked my boys about this they all said the same thing ... they felt the other Scouts should show more pride in themselves and their unit.

As I tell the parents of boys joining our Troop ... Part of the pride of being a member of Boy Scouts is the PRIVILEGE of wearing the troop uniform. The uniform is an important item. We wear the uniform because not only we require it but also because it is a means of identifying ourselves with the principles to which we are committed - character development, citizenship training, and physical and mental fitness. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of scouting. When a Scout puts on the uniform, he makes a statement that he is a certain kind of person. One who is commited to: a belief in God, loyalty to country, and to helping other people.

And yes ... I believe that wearing certain clothes for certain activities creates a certain mindset and attitude. Just as I would never go to church, court, a wedding or a funeral in cut-off shorts neither would I go to a Scouting activity out of uniform.

Just my opinion.

SMNJ

Will gladly say "hi" to Bruce ____ ? You seem to have me at a disadvantage. Do we know each other?

SMNJ

acco40

Senior Forum Member *

Registered: 7/5/2002

Location: Southeast Michigan

Posts: 2386

RE: Greetings from NJ

Posted: Friday, 2/15/2008: 1:59:44 PM--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Welcome - say high to Bruce for me.

Interesting article. Your point in posting it without commentary???

SMNJ

Uhhhh.... nope. We only use our bridge for the "Bridging Ceremony" when the boys cross over from Webelos. I think the Boy Scouts might look at it as childish. But I will certainly ask their opinions - just to see what they say.

SMNJ

Greetings Joni -

I certainly do empathize. I do not feel that your expectations are out of line. Unfortunately your expectations seem to far exceed the individual with whose responsibility most of your issues lie ... the Scoutmaster.

As someone who has been around Scouting my entire life ... I can tell you that which you already know ... the ones suffering most in your Troop are the boys. Unfortunately, I do have to concurr with Calico. As the Advancement Chair, as with all board positions, your roll is mainly adminstrative. The responsibility for supervising and ensuring the completion of advancement requirements falls to the SM and ASMs. The Troop Committee is, as BSA has set it up, there to support the uniformed leaders. What you need to do in this situation is address your concerns with the SM. It is his expections that need to rise. Your threatening to not process advancement or withhold awards is inappropriate. As was pointed out by Calico - if the SM says the boy has had a SMC and is ready for a BoR then he gets a BoR ... its not up to you. If the BoR says the boy is ready to advance then he advances ... its not up to you. If a MBC signs a bluecard and says a Scout has completed a MB then the boy gets the badge (unless you can prove to the MBC that the badge was not truly earned and the MBC takes the bluecard back) ... again ... its not up to you.

Clearly there needs to be a culture change in your Troop. I urge you to continue your fight. It is not fair to the boys (past and present) for your Uniformed Leaders to continue to allow things "to slide." Focus your attention on the SM. Get Council involved and don't be the heavy all the time. I can assure you that at a certain point the SM will look at you like a lunatic and will simply dismiss everything you say out of hand.

Just my opinion .... good luck!

SMNJ

Interestingly, I actually did my first SM Minute at my very first CoH on just this topic. There was a question from on of the "helicopter moms" (you know ... the ones that hover over everything little Johnny does) as to why her son's friends were advancing faster than he was. I explained to her (though she didn't want to hear it) that her son's advancement (a 14 yr old 1st Class Scout) was HIS responsibility. I reminded her that Boy Scouts is not Cub Scouts and that her son does not automatically advance when his friends do.

I've give you a quick quote from my SMM that got caused the biggest controversy: "It depends upon the maturity, experience and most importantly (in my opinion) the leadership, he has had at that point in time. I know of several GREAT 14-year-old Eagle Scouts. Conversely, there are 12, 13 and 14 year olds who say that they're Eagle Scouts, can produce a $10.25 medal and a $.55 card which supports their assertion, BUT, can't convince me that they're SCOUTS, let alone Eagle Scouts!"

As has been mentioned by others ... I have nothing against a 13 or 14 yr old Eagle as long as that Scout has EARNED it and not had it spoon-fed or watered down just so that Troop can scarf another Eagle.

As a SM of a 97 yr old Troop that has over 130 Eagles in our "nest" (and by no means are we an Eagle Factory!) - I tell all of our new parents the same thing ... we hold our Scouts to a higher standard in our Troop. We really do feel that our boys are "that much better" because of it. We need to hold our boys to a higher standard. If we dont, scouting will be just another club to join. We need to set the bar higher challenge them more expect more. And when we do, and have done, our boys meet and often exceed our expectations. They are all more than capable of it WE just have to let THEM do it.

Just my opinion.

SMNJ

Interesting dilemma you've created for yourself. I say you've created for yourself because, unless I read your initial post wrong, the decision to switch from 1yr to 6mos SPL term, and the implementation of that decision, was yours alone. No offense, but you're decision to place the loser in the SPL position for the 2nd half of the year was your first mistake (and we all make 'em!). Clearly just because only 2 boys were interested in September your thought that it wouldn't change in 6 months was short sited at best. Now it looks to me like you're asking your PLC to clean up your mess. If I were in your position, since I made the initial call ... I'd discuss it with the PLC but make the call myself - I'd also tell Scout #3 that the SPL position is set for the remainder of the year. If he is THAT interested in the job, he needs to make some serious choices come next fall.

All that being said ... personally, I have to agree with AvidSM ... I do not believe that a 6mo SPL term is a good thing, nor is it really fair. As a SM of a Troop that, like yours, has 70+ Scouts - I couldn't imagine half way through the year, just as the SPL is getting comfortable in his job, telling him he's done. Beyond that ... if your SPL is doing his job correctly, by February the year should be pretty well set and autopilot should kick in. The only thing your SPL should be dealing with the second half of the year are any scheduling or personnel conflicts. So whoever takes over for the 2nd half of the year should, in a very practical sense, have it easier.

Just my opinion.

SMNJ(This message has been edited by SM in NJ)

The statement: "The point is that Scouting is not the place for sex education. When a leader makes an issue of another's sexual preference, it makes it impossible to remove sexual conduct from the Scouting realm." is a quote from statements from Gov. Perry. If you read the article, I believe his point really has more to do with what he sees as the ACLU's agenda to impose the beliefs of the minority on everyone else and less to do with anyone individually making an issue of sexual orientation.

SMNJ

Hello fellow Scouters,

I started in Scouts as a Bobcat back in the mid-70's. I worked my way through the ranks and got my Arrow of Light. I crossed over and joined Boys Scouts. Over the course of the next several years I worked my way up to the rank of Life Scout. Unfortunately do to adult politics in the Troop and a personal issue that I had with the "powers that be" I left Scouts as a 16 yr old Life Scout with 23 merit badges. Unfortunate!

Time passed .... tick tock ... tick tock. Next thing I knew I myself had a son who wanted to join CubScouts. Since we live in the town where I grew up - my son actually joined the same Cub Pack I was in as a child. Given my work schedule I had to decide between volunteering to help out with Scouts or his baseball team. I made, what I believe was the best decision of my life. Truth be told ... the pack chair came to me and said "hey you were a Scout right??? Excellent you're an Asst CubMaster now."

Anyway ... my son got his Arrow of Light and crossed over into my old Troop. I, of course, came with him and volunteered as an ASM. Within 2 yrs our SM's sons both made Eagle after which he stepped down. Needing someone to step up, I had a long talk with my wife - and especially my son - and stepped up. I'm in my 3rd year as SM now which have been some of the best years of my life! My son is now a Life Scout and is deciding on an Eagle project. Over the course of the last 3+ years our Troop has grown from 45 Scouts to over 70!!! I must say that I'm fortunate enough to have 13 ASMs!!! Yes the Dads in my town do a great job of supporting us - and for that I will forever be thankful.

So ... I found these boards a couple weeks ago and finally decided to join the party. I'm glad to meet all of you and look forward to lots of interesting and informative discussion.

SMNJ

Greetings all,

I've been following these boards for a couple of weeks now and felt I needed to respond to Pappy on his re-orgainzation proposal. While I understand where you are coming from in your interest to broaden the "client base" for BSA, I have to disagree with your route. Taking out the moral/values componants and making uniforms optional would dilute the Boy Scouts into nothing more than a glorified CampFire Boys/Girls organization.

As the Scoutmaster of a Troop that has been around since 1911 and has over 130 Eagles in our "nest", I can assure you that the thing that sets the Boy Scouts apart from other outdoor organizations IS the value componant. If, as a parent (and former Scout myself), I was interested in my son only learning "scoutcraft" and "scoutskills" then an organization like CampFire would have been just fine. That's not what I felt I wanted for my son. Now I know you're going to say that by leaving it up to the CO, I could simply find a unit that offers a "traditional" form. While that is true, quite frankly, however, I'm not interested in associating with, nor having my son associate with, an organization that would/could have for example a satanic scouting unit. I can assure you, that is not what Baden-Powell had in mind.

Yes, BSA needs to find a way to bring in more members, but selling out our heritage isn't the way to do it. We need to make sure that all of our adult leaders are properly trained and encouraged to offer a fresh and exciting program to their boys.

Thats my opinion

SMNJ