ScoutMomSD

thanks Eammon! I have talked to some folks who are close to me and in the pack and realize that its a deeper issue than I first thought.

I have done my share and now its time to pass the torch. You are so correct about that.

Sometimes you have to be hit over the head with problems to realize some things cant be solved and fresh blood needs to look at it.

And my daughter's troop and her friends are at an age where their issues are much more complex so they actually need me more at this point. Being there for teens I can see is so critical. This is when we can most impact them and their future.

again I so appreciate the input!

This is a good mix of folks I know have good insight.

I am getting ready to pretty much fully divest myself of our pack. I just posted the gory details in another thread of mine you can find.

The term I find interesting is this:

"This Lady had over the years got a reputation for being very vocal and at times very emotional. While no one ever said it out loud, I think many of us (Me anyway!!) Tried really hard to avoid her and have as little dealings with her as possible."

I guess this is me (not actually but my personality). Having worked years in a corporate position where my boss literally told me "I dont WANT you to have friends in your job (CFO)" I think a part of that still stays with me.

I turned 50 this year but have 2 kids - the cub age 8 and a daughter age 13. So I have had a lot of life experiences that, lets be honest, folks in their 30's havent had. And we have experienced a lot more loss, of parents, siblings, etc as you do when you age.

How that translates is I am just at a point where I cant tolerate folks who dont practice what they preach. I have seen this alot in the pack. Christian values - not exactly.

I also cant tolerate martyrdom. With this years popcorn sales, several of the moms have complained to myself and many I know that they have basically not been able to do anything other than popcorn as the rest of the unwashed masses arent pulling their weight. The word they dont know is NO. Or "I need help". Or "can you give me some ideas".

This summer I also had a great experience of being a volunteer at a girl scout camp where my daughter was a youth leader. I was the leader for the male siblings, ie Cub Scout age - a group of 9 boys ages 6 to 8. At the end, I asked my son if he had to pick Cub Scout Day Camp or this camp, and he said "this camp, it rocks".

Why? women are more likely to offer help. I was told again and again to ask if I needed anything. It was a very nuturing situation and the boys and girls felt it.

So I am now going to be pretty much backing out of a group I gave a lot of time and money to and doing more and helping with the group that is more of a true family - my daughters cadette troop. Their goal is to go to England in high school together. A very challenging yet great goal.

90% of the Cub/boy scouting goals and projects I absolutely love. And our CM and CC are incredible folks. But now with the pack around 60 boys (from 3 to 5 starting a mere 5 ish years ago) the "cracks" are showing.

To the folks on this board, while I have vehemently disagreed a lot, I got a lot of perspective and will still provide input. But as to being active with our pack, I am done.

correction - I was inline to be the next CC/Commitee chair NOT cub master

I have not posted for quite a long time but with what has happened in our Cub Scout pack in the last few weeks, culminating in being yelled at yesterday for putting my family above popcorn sales, I am out and have some input.

Cub Scouts should be fun and about the boys. Yes its hard work and yes as with all organizations the few gung ho tend to do most of the work. But in exchange for the hard work the pack should be there for folks when they are struggling.

I was in line to be the next CM. I had misgivings due to the time element and the fact that the person who started and was/is the CM is kind of the Mother Theresa of scouting - how do you compete with that? Then at a planning meeting when she brought my name up, another mom said in regards to my position "oh I think xx would be great at it", xx not of course being me. The conversation then evolved into who would be good for the position that at that point I had been told was mine.

Dont get me wrong, my husband had already suggested I not take the job. And I felt a huge sigh of relief when I "officially" declined. But to have other people discussing the position in front of me was just hurtful.

Since that our family has been going through some hard times. The bad economy has finally come home to roost at our house. I have only shared this with close friends but this past week the problems intersected with popcorn sales.

My husband had been called to sell popcorn. We had no master schedule, no emails with the schedule on them, just a phone call. I do cookies with my daughters troop so my husband does popcorn.

On tues I realized we had a scheduling conflict. I emailed about it. Then we had computer connection problems and I didnt see the emails until yesterday. I didnt realize til too late that the slot they moved my husband into overlapped with a dental appointment. And this was basically an emergency dental appointment, serious problems. So I called and emailed a number of times to the popcorn chair.

Bottom line is I was called by someone other than the popcorn person who proceeded to berate and insult me about not being a "good scout" and doing my "fair share". Note I know from experience that this person in general never attends events, cleans up or shows up at committee meetings. She went on for at least 15 minutes. She said that the head of the popcorn drive was working all the shifts that no one else worked and if I didnt work the pack would lose $300 and it was my fault.

Then I got a call from a friend in our Den who said SHE was yelled at also and told if she didnt sell she would have to buy out and pay $300.00.

What does this have to do with the OP and thread?

Burnout happens when you already are questioning some of the decisions and the time vs benefit. This also occurs with relationships. And the scouts is a relationship.

So I penned an email stating that my priorities were my kids, my husband, my house and my job. And that anyone who was working more than two shifts on the weekend and telling all that they had to and couldnt put their kids in sports or anything else should just say no.

Bottom line is I have gone from someone who would lay down their life for this pack to someone who is hurt emotionally and very angry.

I agree with the above poster- where are the other leaders? if this truly is a christian based organization, when people are hurting you reach out and ask what you can do to help.

Cub Scout folks need to realize that the best thing they can teach their kids is kindness and empathy for fellow students. I think our pack would be better served at this point visiting homeless shelters than trying to make a buck with popcorn.

So do what you need to. I know with corporate experiences, in a year no one will care what you did. Everyone is replaceable. You have to look after yourself and family first - all else in the scheme of things is not important.

Good luck - sorry again to pour my heart out but there are a lot of really good folks on this forum.

in response to NJ blog:

1) Yes Thin Mints are that good - Boy Scouts will never have the cache that girl scouts do with their cookies. Popcorn just isnt as good.

2) Disney I am sure purposely didnt ask Disney. Disney has had partner benefits for a long time (like most healthcare organizations) and is very much in the front line of support for Gay and Lesbian rights because a large percent of their workforce is gay compared to many companies.

3) I love Scouts but lets be honest - the Boy Scouts have a reputation for being overly religious and extremely discriminatory. I have had a number of friends who gave me the evil eye when they found out my son was in scouts. But they also give me that look for shopping at walmart (see the new show on ABC "the goode family")

Look, I am in scouts for my son to have fun and learn something. All the stuff about religion, building "men", being tough, etc, well whatever floats your boat. Thats not my goal.

And to guy in Highland Ranch - its a cool area. I wasnt putting it down. Very much like Irvine in California. I'm a CA Native so probably wont move but its a super nice area.

If asked to give more for scouts I would be gone, period. I love scouts but enough is enough.

I already passed on the FOS and if this singles me out, too bad. When I was in the corporate environ in healthcare, as a Controller/CFO there was a "voluntary" PAC contribution. And I knew 100% if I didnt contribute, my boss would be po'd and my name would go on a list that went to the CEO of the COMPANY. But that was a case of protecting my job.

In this environ we have to protect our families and our spending. Yes there are folks that live in high priced homes with large payments. Many of these folks also have lost their jobs or part of their income due to the economic downturn.

The bottom line is that its about the kids - and if KIDS cant do scouting because of this its a shame. Anytime you start saying so and so "should" be able to do something, you have to really look closer.

I know folks in very expensive homes only because their parents gave them the money. I know people in smaller homes where parents both work. Both situations the folks are pretty much at the extent of "extra" spending.

In this day and age we need to be helping not asking for more.

We have a campout coming up and I will be doing the shopping and calculating of food.

I thought I remembered years ago seeing something for large groups or Girl Scouts. Something that converts people to portions and shopping lists?

If you have anything let me know. And yes I can guess, but the accountant in me is thinking there must be a more semi-precise way

thanks so much

I have been to Highlands Ranch, did a project with Centura years ago. Its a pretty sanitized version of Denver. Even the garage sale signs have to be pre-approved.

I went through South Park and also Littleton. It was close to the time the shooting happened as there was still police tape up and the school was closed. Wow I guess then it was 10 years ago.

South park is a microcosm of what people really think and talk about and brings together a variety of folks who push the envelope (did anyone see the Somali pirate episode, or the Jonas brothers one - the writers definately still have it!) It takes events and pushes them, much like Saturday Night Live.

to disqualify after the fact isnt fair.

This is for the boys, NOT the dads, not the adults. I would bet money the kids could give a darn about most of it and its the dads that are the ones getting into a testosterone frenzy.

Kids goal - make car with wheels, watch it go.

WOW - that is a lot of events.

I know with one cub and one middle school girl who is also a cadette scout, this is a LOT to put on parents.

Also if the boy is in sports, there is no way you can do both. My son is in Baseball and there is a minimum of one game and one practice (some weeks we had two practices). Then at the 1st to 4th grade there are usually at least 1 to 3 birthday parties per month.

Many of our scouts are also catholic and have requirements for church that are once a week.

I think one pack meeting, one event and one or two den meetings is more than enough. In April and May I literally have NO weekend days without something going on for one of the kids, and many times both.

Without adult involvement you will sink your pack and as a parent I know I would have to pass on 75% of the activities if there were that many

My 13 year old (girl) has seen PARTS of south park that I have taped. Trust me, middle schoolers have heard or seen worse with their friends. My 8 yr old cubbie, only the commercials for it.

I like that they attack both sides equally.

The pinewood derby episode had my husband laughing hysterically especially when the mom comes down as they are up into the wee hours and the dad says something like "Youre a girl, you dont understand how important this is to stan", and of course stan did nothing. And to be blunt, our beautiful car was mostly done by my husband (I stay out of the "pinewood" decisions).

I think the moral is that its a race and as cubs especially tigers and wolves, their skills overall arent going to create anything that is overly fabulous. But thats okay.

just wondering why its insulting to see what looks like a cub scout pack in something cut in a similar manner and color to Brownie outfits? If I recall a while back there was a thread about the women on Deal or No Deal in Boy Scout outfits and as I recall the consensus of the (male) posters was "they looked hot".

So women with big yabos can wear a boy scout uniform but if a boy is put in a brownie look alike outfit its a problem?

go to "buycostumes.com" and key in camper girl adult costume. THAT is okay?

this week South park will skewer the Pinewood derby - if you are a fan you know that this show attacks both liberal and conservatives.

input?

my bad - sorry I was reading 23 and thinking ALL, didnt see the little "b".

Thanks for clarifying it.

thanks - here is where I got the info - let me know -

in Wolf elective 23 I believe you have to do ALL of these to achieve this elective:

LET'S GO CAMPING (Page 222)

Participate with your pack on an overnight campout.

Explain the basics of how to take care of yourself in the outdoors.

Tell what to do if you get lost.

Explain the buddy system.

Attend day camp in your area.

Attend resident camp in your area.

Participate with your den at a campfire in front of your pack.

With your den or pack or family, participate in a worship service outdoors.

from:

http://usscouts.org/advance/cubscout/wolfarrow.asp

its in my handbook page 224, item F

I have a question - if they dont go to resident camp they can never earn this, right?

I was going over it and it looks like for a lot of the younger boys thats all they are missing

spiral absolutely.

Our pack gives out books as part of the advancement at year end. What I have done as they buy the "regular" books, is take it to staples (most office supply and printers do this) and have them cut the spine off and put a spiral on it.

I have found it so hard to check off all the stuff with the regular one.

Also I do a lot of cut and pasting into word for certain advancement stuff and achievements. The books are so small and my old eyes have a hard time reading. (ie from online info - you can get 100% of what you need online without the book, I just use the book for the physical checking off).

good luck

I will clarify a couple points then I am so done, you can stick a fork in me.

first I said I DID make a good income. I GAVE IT UP to be a mom and be there for my kids. Someone in a prior post had thought I was working full time. I know thats the problem with these disjointed discussions. It was only the point of the fact that as to being there for the kids we have done as much as humanly and financially possible. nuff said on that one.

the reason I started this thread is because I have seen a trend especially with younger parents to just let kids do whatever the heck they want, and then the kids become ultra brats. Watch a few episodes of Judge Judy to see how that ends up when they are in their teens. It is very easy to let kids do whatever they want. It is very hard to set up and maintain controls on kids.

And I will say I just dont agree with this "we have to toughen them up" attitude. My son it 8. I dont care if he toughens up. I have seen a real trend specifically with the dads about how they need to not be coddled, ad nausea.

Despite BB guns, target practice and all the rock throwing you can do, some of these boys will be hairdressers, some will be actors, some will be musicians, some will be even worse -- politicians!!! Many will not continue with the religion they are raised in. And that is OKAY. Its our job to make them good people. And part of being a good person is being kind and considerate to others and playing nice.

done with this thread - take care.

as a mom I want to note that the way mom's interact with their kids is different than the way dad's do. And in general mom's spend way more time with their kids and in many instances understand their limits much more (as we see them tested on a daily basis). I love my husband but for every hour he spends with him, I have probably spent 3 or 4.

Which is WHY these weekends are great.

Plus mom's tend to try to prevent problems and men tend to pick up the pieces after the fact. Even in business I saw this time and time again.

Boys need and crave BOTH sides. Yes they love to run and jump on rocks but they also love to cuddle up to mom with a blanket on the couch at night. At least for now.

a note - I work out of my house so am home and do all the stuff for the kids. In fact I gave up a 6 figure job 13 years ago to work out of my home when my daughter was born. So now I clip coupons, buy my clothes at Target and drive an old Volvo which needs a paint job. Because that was MY/OUR parenting choice. I am just lucky we are old enough to have owned property for a long time - we have friends who do not have the ability to make this choice AND put a roof over their heads. Just to clarify.

What I am advocating is that parents realize that when they are somewhere with the ability to impact children other than their own, they need to really PARENT and watch their own kids. As to what BSA can do, based on my understanding of the BSA, I doubt there is much they can do other than make sure their you know whats are covered in that they are not responsible for poor choices people make that result in injury.

Its like smoking or extreme religious beliefs. I am fine with what you do in your home, just dont advocate smoking or your religion to my kids. Flip this argument around. What if I was gay and I went to a weekend campout with my partner. And I went up to your kids and told you all about how I was gay and this is my partner and that is okay as all people are created equal. I know a number of you on this board would not be cool with that.

What I am saying is that when you are in a contained area that is not YOURS you need to respect other people, part of that being that your child does not have the right to upset the enjoyment of others.

Let me also tell you I have a difficult child. I love him more than anything but if unchecked my son would be the one climbing to the top of a 50 foot tree and trying to fly down like batman. I know first hand how challenging parenting is because I have to actively parent my son DAILY. And I also have a 13 year old daughter - heaven help me (if you have had or have a teen girl, you understand).

I have heard the "in my day" story from my in-laws as well as my husband who grew up in the midwest with houses backing up on open spaces and no fences. I am a native Californian who has grown up in the suburbs like my kids. There are pluses and minuses for each.

I am cool with parents chosing how they want to raise their parents in their own houses, as long as it doesnt impact on my kid. At a camp setting, I just feel that logic dictates that you keep control of your child.

Also in the "old days" parents were younger and lets be frank, knew less about raising kids. Many parents were in their 20's, and also most parents had a mom at home. Not so today. My son was born when I was 42. Twenty years gives me a lot more input into what the dangers are and possible implications.

I just dont agree with the "old days" concept. In the "old days" there were no seat belts, smoking was not considered unhealthy and there were a lot more TBI's (Traumatic Brain injuries) especially in CA as folks rode with no helmets. The average age you lived to was younger and there was much more "suffer in silence" with abuse to women and kids. Not so good.

My favorite saying to my kids is I dont care what other folks let their kids do, its me that makes YOUR rules.

I want to clarify one thing also - I am very grateful that we as Scouts have the opportunity to avail ourselves of this opportunity. In fact I am surprised that more families in our pack dont go (maybe because we have such awesome campouts?).

But to have the ability for a dad to spend a weekend with his child (I do the same with my daughter with Girl Scouts) and have a true "camp like" experience where all the activites are open. Its great.

One of the other things I wanted to point out is that apparently they had anticipated 400 people and over 500 showed up. So possibly there is some additional planning that could go on at Council level. Good thing "Mom" (aka ME) spent Friday running around getting food for my guys as they were the ones who ate well (the main complaint - the food stunk and there wasnt enough) - as my hubbie got up and cooked them bacon and eggs over the camp stove.

I agree there is a happy medium. I WANT my son to be able to run around and play "Clone Wars" with sticks, as long as the sticks arent pocket knives. In fact my husband really wanted to do the BB guns but my son had more times doing the things that arent readily in his weekly plan living in a suburb. But they did both catch really big fish and got to go boating.

I just dont like seeing kids paying the price when adults make poor choices - can we start a thread on OctoMom???

My husband returned yesterday from a council sponsored "fun with son" weekend at a local bsa camp in the mountains.

My husband relayed to me several stories about the poor leadership and parenting of the scout parents.

I will give these events but I guess if you are on BSA property, do they have any ability to "manage" folks who obviously do not have great parenting skills?

1) first was that at the camp where he was located a there were a large number of boys just running around while the parents were in their tents reading or somewhere else. My husband and one or two other parents were watching the kids. Periodically people would come over and say "have you seen so and so??". I am not saying in any way that kids should not be allowed to run around but in an area that has some steep drop offs, several bodies of water and lots of rocks, etc. shouldnt parents be required or have to sign something that says they will be accountable for their own kids?

2) second was worse. Before the evening campfire, there was an ampitheater that the kids were running up and down on. Your basic logs uphill around a cetral fire. My husband told my son to stop it as a couple of times he slid a bit. (NOTE my son is a 12 on a 1 to 10 activity scale). NO OTHER PARENTS said anything to the kids. Suddenly one of the boys slipped and hit his chin on the edge of one of the logs. His chin was sliced open deeply and the father (finally) came over. The fathers first comment (didnt even ask to call for help - someone else did) was "son lets pray about this".

The medical staff showed up and was asking questions to the kid who obviously has suffered some type of concussion or head injury (remember a short week ago actress Natashia Richardson DIED of what appeard to be a minor head injury). The child did not know where he was, or what day it was. My husband was there as he saw it happend (the parent DID NOT).

The father then said "well I will just drive him down the hill myself". Huh? The closest Emergency room (which on average has a 2 plus hour wait) is 60 to 90 minutes from the camp. The medical staff said they were going to lifeflight the kid out (ie the medical helicopter) and they had to TALK THE DAD INTO IT.

Hasnt the dad heard the saying "pray to god but tie your camel?". Ie GOD expects us to do what we need to help ourselves (remember Jesus was tempted to throw himself off a rock, he was smart enough to know personal responsibility wasnt he?). I am really shocked an appalled at a so called parent and so called scout member act like this.

PLUS if insurance costs go up (lifeflight is I believe at least $10,000 per flight) due to poor parenting, it makes me really angry.

Input? I know we are older parents and our son is IT, there will be no more and he is more precious than anything to us. We cant have another. We cherish our kids probably more than a lot due to this and what was involved in becoming parents.

I just dont understand with all the "codes" and "rules" why this happens and why parents dont seem to give a darn. I just hope these folks arent Den Leaders.

Input? I know I will get some "how could you say that" but come on. Arent our kids our most precious resource???

what part of Arizona? I know Flagstaff, Phoenix and Tucson all have different climates and types of available vegetation.

I agree - ask where you are going if you can plant trees - depending on where you are not sure if will be saguaro, palo verde or pine!!

Trash pick up is a good project also. Even at boy scout camps there is always trash there when you arrive (with girl scouts we always were told leave it cleaner than when you arrived - havent seen this as much with Cubbies).

I am unclear, is this ALL ages or is your den just doing the planning? we have found and are getting better at having stuff for each age. Tigers needs and ideas of fun are MUCH different than the Webelos. I know the younger kids could spend all day picking up sticks and playing Star Wars the Clone Wars.

Another fun snack is make your own Trail Mix. Get the big boxes of Raisins, Nuts (keeping in mind allergies), M&M's, etc and get a big thing of plastic gloves (from a place like Smart and Final) - Sprouts (which I think is based in AZ?) has great stuff for this. Give boys a baggie, and plastic gloves and monitor so M&M's dont go first.

Good luck

thanks Beavah - I know. Its just the BSA has a severe case of OCD in most areas and for this is like "whazza big deal, go ahead, take it, hope for the best". See "atheist in pack" to prove my point. Or discussions about forms, or legal issues, etc.

We are WAY over the threshold for this year and probably for the 3 years again based on Gross Receipts. The large popcorn sale volume was what started me wondering.