scoutingagain

"is a willingness to compromise values."

I don't know about that. The Republican Party has essentially capitulated on the immigration issue based on the results with Hispanic voters in the last election. It will be interesting to see what other issues they give in on if they percieve they need to, to keep their seats in Washington.

SA

Have you read the report?

The official report is available on the CIA website at:

https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/chap6.html

Read through it and you'll eventually find the following paragraphs.

"While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdads desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered."

and

"In practical terms, with the destruction of the Al Hakam facility, Iraq abandoned its ambition to obtain advanced BW weapons quickly. ISG found no direct evidence that Iraq, after 1996, had plans for a new BW program or was conducting BW-specific work for military purposes. Indeed, from the mid-1990s, despite evidence of continuing interest in nuclear and chemical weapons, there appears to be a complete absence of discussion or even interest in BW at the Presidential level."

SA

"So in my opinion any automatic or semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine and say 12 grains of propellant in the cartridge should be declared an assault rifle, Irregardless of whether it is in military service or not. "

Well with that approach when you get into a firefight with your fellow citizens armed with previously or illegally obtained 30 round magazines, taped together and can re-load in a matter of seconds, your toast.

or the zombies will get you when you have to re-load.

SA

"So Iraq didn't have large stockpiles of chemical weapons? Oh I know different."

Then you know something the Bush WMD inspection team didn't know or was unable to find.

Now I honestly don't believe the wackos in the story represent the majority of gun owners but many of these nutters either already own guns or want to own them.

SA

And then there are these nutters that make the Climate Change deniers, Birthers and those that still believe Iraq has WMDs look relatively sane;

http://news.yahoo.com/why-sandy-hook-massacre-spawned-conspiracy-theories-184323398.html

SA

"So lobbyists get congressmen to write and PASS legislation in both houses that can't go into law without the president's signature, correct? I'm curious, how long have the Republicans held the house? How about the senate? Who is president? Why weren't they doing their job?"

Good question. Who was in office in 1996 - 1998 when much of the CDC funding into this research was cut off? Who was in office when this little tidbit was added to CDC funding,

SA

I confess I don't hunt but have done some fishing. But at one point in my life did spend a fair amount of time off the New England coast diving for lobsters. It was kind of a high tech approach to catch frogs, or other critters as a kid. They could be crafty, hide in cracks, under rocks, etc. and in open water not easy to catch. But once caught and of legal size they were doomed.

Talk about repressed aggression. We would boil them alive and then rip them apart with our bare hands, pliers, hammers, nut crackers etc. to get at the sweet juicy flesh and consume them....with melted butter.

SA

I'm not opposed to the idea of arming teachers or staff, but agree that they need to be specifically designated, known to local law enforcement and train regularly them, and demonstrate equivalent proficiency. Ideally these might be former military, reserve or national guard personnel.

However, this should be considered the last line of defense. At the point you have armed educators responding to a shooter you have someone in the school with a weapon with intent to do harm. We need to look at policies, legislation and programs that makes this scenario much more difficult to even contemplate. This means doing a better job of identifying people that should not have access to firearms, and developing systems to limit their access.

SA

(This message has been edited by scoutingagain)

Delusional paranoia aside, if one reads the article linked by Barry, as Beav notes, the executive branch is basically indicating that SOME actions don't require legislative approval and they are absolutely correct. Among those are increased enforcement of current legislation. Or do folks believe current gun laws shouldn't be enforced?

Some of the other articles have left out the qualifying statement and have implied much more that was actually said. These articles and the other thread where an MSNBC commentator took an NRA analogy about the appearance of guns and compared it to racism show everything in the media, particularly media with know biases need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Jeepers.

SA

"but if teachers or other school personnel are willing and able to do it, where is the harm? "

Agreed, one part of an answer might be to have appropriately trained and qualified personnel armed or with access to a weapon to defend a school or other location. However this should be a last line of defense. This still means someone has gotten into the school with a weapon and is firing on or about to fire on students/people. The other part of the equation as has been pointed out is the confluence of metally disturbed people getting their hands on guns. While increasing the defense capability in schools may be one part of the answer we also need to look at the other end. How do we keep firearms out of the hands of metally disturbed people? Or at least make it more difficult for them to get their hands on guns? Is there any reason to believe that the individuals involved in recent mass shootings would not use fully automatic weapons if they could get them? For some reason they are not using maching guns. Why? If we can keep machine guns out of their hands, why can't we keep semi-automatic weapons out of their hands?

Or as noted, we can just say oh well, the best we can do is arm more people and just with the mentally disturbed with guns when they start shooting?

SA

"Well it depends on whether children are taught about guns or not doesn't it? "

Well why bother with armed police or specially trained teachers in classrooms. Let' s simply train children about guns and let them defend themselves. If 14 year old can carry, should 12 year old? What would be the recommended cut off age for children to carry in school? If any?

As

Back to the thread.

"Soon after, the teen heard a loud bang on the door, rushed his siblings upstairs and got a handgun from his parent's bedroom."

Do we really think it's a good idea to leave a loaded gun around where chidlren can get access to it?

SA

For Pack and Everyone Else

So This is Christmas

J. Lennon

So this is Christmas

And what have you done?

Another year over

And a new one just begun

And so this is Christmas

I hope you have fun

The near and the dear one

The old and the young

A very merry Christmas

And a happy New Year

Let's hope it's a good one

Without any fear

And so this is Christmas

For weak and for strong

For rich and the poor ones

The world is so wrong

And so happy Christmas

For black and for white

For yellow and red ones

Let's stop all the fight

A very merry Christmas

And a happy New Year

Let's hope it's a good one

Without any fear

And so this is Christmas

And what have we done?

Another year over

And a new one just begun

Ans so this is Christmas

I hope you have fun

The near and the dear one

The old and the young

A very merry Christmas

And a happy New Year

Let's hope it's a good one

Without any fear

War is over over

If you want it

War is over

Now

Barry, I believe beav answers your question about why liberals now need guns in the other thread.

"Intimidating fellow citizens they disagreed with or assisting in redistributing wealth would, I suppose, be optional. "

Sa

Since the "liberal" establishment is disappointed with Obama on a number of issues from not insisting on a single payer government health care system, no action on gun legislation, not committing to fully protecting Soc. Sec. and Medicare from budget negotiations and believing he has basically rolled over to satisfy the right side of the aisle I'd say "hyperpartisan" is a bit of a stretch. Sure he's certainly not a conservative Republican but "hyperpartisan" ?

Although I can understand that the view from 20yds past the right side goal posts would make someone on the 40 yd line appear to be hyperpartisan.

SA

This was posted in another forum I follow. Provides food for thought in the national debate about the role of firearms in the US.

Source

Department of Health Services, UCLA School of Public Health, Los Angeles, California 90095-1772, USA. erin.richardson@gmail.com

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Violent death is a major public health problem in the United States and throughout the world.

METHODS:

A cross-sectional analysis of the World Health Organization Mortality Database analyzes homicides and suicides (both disaggregated as firearm related and non-firearm related) and unintentional and undetermined firearm deaths from 23 populous high-income Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development countries that provided data to the World Health Organization for 2003.

RESULTS:

The US homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. For 15-year olds to 24-year olds, firearm homicide rates in the United States were 42.7 times higher than in the other countries. For US males, firearm homicide rates were 22.0 times higher, and for US females, firearm homicide rates were 11.4 times higher. The US firearm suicide rates were 5.8 times higher than in the other countries, though overall suicide rates were 30% lower. The US unintentional firearm deaths were 5.2 times higher than in the other countries. Among these 23 countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States, 86% of women killed by firearms were US women, and 87% of all children aged 0 to 14 killed by firearms were US children.

CONCLUSIONS:

The United States has far higher rates of firearm deaths-firearm homicides, firearm suicides, and unintentional firearm deaths compared with other high-income countries. The US overall suicide rate is not out of line with these countries, but the United States is an outlier in terms of our overall homicide rate.

SA

"Well, if we follow the logic being espoused lately that one=all, we "...would all walk around with a personal armed guard.

As usual, in the extreme politics of the day, we get absurd arguments from both sides and nothing really get accomplished.

My thoughts:

1. When law enforcement response in minutes is insufficient there needs to be some ability for local school staff to respond ASAP. This doesn't mean arming or requiring all teachers to be armed. That's an absurd notion. Having an armed LEO at each school would be nice, but probably not realisic given the financial resources available to most school districts. And please don't talk about volunteers. If there is a someone with a weapon around school children I want a fully trained professional not some Rambo wannabe. I'd support the idea of training one or two teachers as auxilliary LEOs with supplemental pay just like they do for the football coach or drama advisor. They could train during the summers and would need to demonstrate competence to the satisfaction of local police. Our High School Principal is a former marine, and I have no doubt given the proper training he could be trusted with a weapon, I would prefer a hand gun. The school responder does not necessarily need to take the attacker out, but sufficiently engage and distract the individual long enough for local LEO to show up.

2. Mental Health care and recognition needs to be studied. The association between violent video games and mass shootings need to be looked at. Improvements need to be made in limiting access to weapons for those under treatment. If your Doctor can say you can't drive due to mental health concerns he/she should be able to due the same for access to firearms.

3. In another thread someone noted that criminals and crazies hardly ever use fully automatic weapons. Either this is because there is an effective means of keeping these weapons out of the hands of criminals and crazies or the criminals and crazies don't use them simply because they don't want them. After all the counter argument is that if they really want them their going to get them. Well, I highly doubt that criminals and crazies don't use fully automatic weapons because they don't want them, although I have never taken a poll to find out. But we need to recognize it is possible to limit access to certain classes of weapons and ammunition throught the legislative process. We need to limit access to military style semi-automatice weapons and hi-capacity magazines. These are not needed for sport, hunting or legitimate self defense.

4. Private gun sales need to be banned. Purchases should only be through licensed dealerships where every prospective buyer undergoes a criminal and mental health background check.

5. Ownership comes with responsibilities including training on use and security of weapons.

Just some random thoughts.

SA

Stosh,

It makes no difference to me.

You'll have to as the Bushmaster marketing folks why they chose that tagline.

SA

Pretty amazing considering the President and Speaker were only $300 Billion apart on a package totaling more than $2 Trillion. I suspect this move is as much about the frustration Boehner has with members of his own party as anything else. He was pretty close to cutting a deal with the President, but can't get members of his own party to back his own bill.

Likely scenario is this will get resolved in January when there are fewer Republicans in the house and more have been cowed into submission once their constituents see their first paychecks of 2013.

SA

"I think we reduce the discussion to pure silliness when we start talking about impressing women and making fashion statements.

Of course that might just be the intent. "

Well at least one add for the Bushmaster apparently used the tagline, "Your man card reissued."

So the gun manufacturer's after doing marketing research on how best to connect with their target market apparently came to the conclusion that one approach would be to appeal to a prospective gun owner's lack of self confidence in their own masculinity.

Some of us unarmed folks are quite comfortable with our sense of masculine identity without the need of a firearm. Others I guess need to make up for their own misgivings.

SA

I've often thought that prepping for the Zombies would be a good excercise for the Emergency Preparedness MB, for the same reasons Homeland Security did it.

SA

"that was widely criticized by fiscal conservatives).

The Bush Tax cuts were also criticized by fiscal conservatives, notably McCain, Rudman and Stockman.

Republicans economic cycles for the past generation have been to cut taxes then increase deficit spending. Of course that creates short term economic spurts and then becomes unsustainable and the economy crashes. The last two deep recessiions, the early 90's after Reagan and the late 2000s after Bush's foley. The idea that Republicans represent fiscal responsibility is laughable. Don't favor Tax cuts and then say we need the world's most expensive military, most expensive health care system and can't make any changes to Social Security and Medicare. The Democrats are at least intellectually honest in that they believe in tax revenues for the programs they want.

Now we're stuck with extrodinary peace time deficits and have to begin paying it back. The reason to increase taxes on the wealthy is not necessarily because they don't pay their fair share, it's because that's the only place to get the money from. The poor have no money, and the middle class is tapped out. The only group that has benefitted from the tax and economic policies of the last 35 years has been the wealthy, disproportionately. The rest have at best held their own or have seen a decline in their standard of living. So it's either beging to pay the debt we as a nation have incurred by voting in leadership that have brought us here, both Republicans and Democrats or continue to kick the issue down the road for our children and grandchildren to deal with.

As of today it seems we're headed for the cliff, at least for the short term. Folks are waiting for the markets to react to create a sense of urgency for our so called leadership in Washington. However the collective wisdom of the markets appear to be treated the "cliff" as a minor bump not the economic disaster the media is predicting.

There's really not much different from an economic standpoint from the cliff or any of the proposals that have been put forward. They all represent increased tax revenues and cuts in spending on the order of $1-2$ trillion bucks.

SA

"So we created a massive wealth transfer from da worker to the financier on top of da general trend of capital to accumulate."

Not to mention the tranfer of risk from the financier to the taxpayer.

SA

"It's kind of hard to imagine the response time for the police is measured in minutes"

Newtown police were on scene within 10 minutes. When a shooter can get off 30+ rounds in less than a minute, a response time in minutes is insufficient.

I have no objection to allowing trained citizens, who have demonstrated knowledge and responsibility carrying a handgun for self protection. I personally do not see the need and have to admit, wonder why anyone would have such fear in their lives to feel it necessary. I'd more understand having a firearm at home for home protection.

On the otherhand I wouldn't object to the idea of having a handfull of well trained educators, again who have undergone training, demonstrated competency to the satisfaction of local law enforcement having access to a handgun in a school for school protection.

As I questioned before, your a local cop, and summoned to an active shooting incident with limited information on the shooter, you find two or more persons shooting at each other, with other civilians in the crossfire, what's your response?

SA

First, I hear very few talking about banning all firearms for civilians. Most are talking about restricting access to military style rifles and/or high capacity magazines/clips. How many rounds does one need for target shooting, hunting or basic self/home defense? What's reasonable? 6, 10, 30, 50? Just asking?

Like I said, I somehow manage to live in an urban environment totally unarmed, but manage to maintain my manhood anyway.

Next, as a first responder, a report comes in that an active shooter is at the local movie complex. You show up to find three people shooting at each other, who do you shoot first?

Just asking?

SA