rdclements

The guys described in the OP might not have realized that their actions were inappropriate. This case might be best handled with a "let's clear this up" chat.

I've seen responses to alcohol possession at extremes in the past. Some have felt it acceptable to drink away from the youth and others freaked out because the dinner recipe that the adults were making called for a bit of cooking wine.

If you are an adult participant on a youth outing, you are "on duty" until everyone is home or returned to parental custody.

Maybe you could lighten up on the guy for a few years. I've worked with youth in the church long enough to know that belief systems change over time. Maybe if he can see others live by the Oath and Law he might catch a little himself.

I heard a great sermon yesterday from some high school seniors on doubt:

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=171354517

-R

Whether you cut the flag into pieces or not is dependent on your individual preferences. When I did it with Webelos, we wanted the extra complexity and pieces so that each scout could be an active participant and not just watch some other guys burn up a flag.

Don't cut it in advance. It's not a flag anymore. Those big ones can be tough to cut. I had good results with my emergency shears - they'll cut through most stuff.

When I was a scout, my scoutmaster would collect the grommets from a retirement and use them as impact awards. Tie a grommet into a leather cord. Catch a scout doing something special, extra mile, etc - and you call him out and present him with an impact award. It was an item of honor.

Something that we've done at Webelos-ree:

We have a big campfire, and do the retirements last as the fire is down to coals and the evening can end on a serious and respectful note. We have many average-sized flags to retire as well as (usually) a garrison flag. Each den/patrol in the crowd gets a flag from the collection to process and a group of staff or a patrol is selected to handle the garrison flag.

With the "Georgia" ceremony, we cut the flag into 4 parts: the bottom 3 stripes, the 4th stripe, the other stripes, and the union. Each piece is carried forward and placed on the fire in that order. So, we get all the 3 stripe sections done, then the 4th stripe sections, etc. The union is always last, and the union from the garrison flag is last of all. As it is consumed, the bugler sounds Taps, and the assembly is dismissed.

The significance of the 4th stripe is that Georgia was the 4th state to ratify the Constitution. That's not going to work for California, so you'll have to come up with another local plan.

-R

Fish:

1. The advice regarding the AHA option is good. If you can get hooked up with an AHA instructor, they can usually operate with more flexibility than the Red Cross courses.

2. Make sure that your group gets AED as well as CPR training. Help your charter org get your meeting location equipped with an AED.

3. Check out this link about the BSA ARC relationship. If your council is not working with your ARC chapter, maybe you're just the guy they need to get something moving.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/ConservationAndService/amredcross.aspx

-R

I don't want to sound judgmental, but if you need a nuclear scientist for range safety, you're probably using inappropriate guns.

I've wondered about this as well. I have never known of someone being rejected. There are some in my district who are registered for all MBs.

If you don't want to completely get out but you want to give your son some space, maybe you could leverage your CM experience and serve the district/council as a trainer or commissioner. You could also pick a couple of merit badges and register as a counselor. You might suggest that spousal unit register as a counselor and gain that perspective.

dscouter, I stand corrected. Your problem was with the enthusiastic bystander. My police and firefighter colleagues have training in managing folks like that while maintaining professionalism and effectiveness. I'm sure it's a challenge.

There's not often a pro around when you need one. That enthusiastic bystander with his questionable training conducted with dubious oversight is the kind of guy who will most likely be the first to reach you when you go down.

Hi miksmi, welcome to the discussion.

I don't know about running NYLT this way, but if you haven't yet, check out the information on Kodiak training.

http://www.kodiak-bsa.org/

Kodiak is an advanced training course in the Venturing program that is designed to be run in a trek format.

I doubt that I will ever go through the training and certification to be a professional medic. I got my first real first aid training in '81 and have had the opportunity to continue learning and to occasionally be helpful. I have never represented myself as anything other than a volunteer lay person, or exaggerated my training/skills/expertise.

I have responded to and have multiple saves in an interesting range of situations from basic whittlin chip trouble to multi-day technical rescues. In each situation, I have never received anything but respect and appreciation from the pros when I handed off the patient to their care. I'm convinced that lay training has a valuable place in the chain. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but many others do.

BSA has a requirement and expectation for a certain level of training in the volunteer corps. They are partnered with ARC to get people 'certified' to that standard. As long as I have the means, I will continue to serve as a volunteer instructor for them.

If someone gets confused and mistakes "certification" from a Red Cross course as a more professional rating, they are responsible for their own ignorance and present us with another opportunity.

As a professional first responder, you have significant influence over how others think about preparedness and how lay persons deal with professionals. Be careful how easily you throw around terms like 'dubious' and 'questionable'. Just because a lay person has limited training and experience does not diminish their value in an emergency response.

I have advanced skills in my profession too, and I can easily point out the ignorance of those without it. I prefer to offer my assistance and coaching when and where it might be helpful.

It is possible, maybe even likely, to encounter enthusiastic lay responders who believe that they are more capable than they really are. If persons exceed their abilities does not indicate a failure with the training course. The ARC stresses that their lay responder courses are for lay responders. They don't suggest anything more.

I was in a situation responding to an athletic injury (fibula fracture). A parent who was a orthopedic surgeon came over to help. He then yielded 'our case' to an EMT because the EMT had more experience with field work. It's about leveraging abilities at the right place and time.

The term 'certification' is used by ARC and by BSA, not to suggest a professional capability, but to quantify training in consistent terms. There are also lay responders who need 'certification' in order to satisfy an employment requirement. That doesn't make them professionals nor does it make them pretenders.

Maybe you'd get a better response from your patients if you approached them with less arrogance?

Yes, a simple kit like the Wizard uses the 18mm diameter engines. The larger ones are 24mm.

It does help to have someone with experience, so grabbing a starter kit and learning by doing is a good suggestion.

As 5year mentioned, brush fires are are possible, so have some water buckets standing by.

There are some good resources on the Estes web page for teachers. Here's the link:

http://www2.estesrockets.com/cgi-bin/WEDU100P.pgm

Here's a link to their recommendations for the size of the field needed for each engine size:

http://www2.estesrockets.com/pdf/launchsite.pdf

I built a 4 position launch pad. If you have multiple single launch pads you can get the same setup.

Use some stakes and flagging to mark out the launch safety area.

Only scouts loading their own rocket along with their helpers are allowed out to the pad.

Once a set of rockets is loaded and wires connected, everybody gets behind the safety line.

Safety check, circuit check, launch warning, clear range, countdown, launch - either singly or in a group.

If you plan ahead, model rocketry can lead to many scientific learning activities. Each age group can do their own thing to prepare and enjoy the launch event.

Eliza,

The letter codes on the engines indicate the 'impulse' range of the engine. Impulse is calculated as how much force for how much time. As the engine letters go up, the total impulse roughly doubles.

Look at a common engine, like an A8-3.

The A class indicates a total impulse between 1.25 and 2.5 Newton-seconds.

The 8 indicates that the engine produces 8 Newtons of thrust (average).

The 3 indicates that the delay time from the end of the thrust phase to the ejectino charge is 3 seconds.

For the average kit rocket, overall height for a flight will roughly double for each succeeding class of engines. This means you can fly the same rocket in a small field on an A engine and then fly it in a larger field on a B or C.

The basic launch gear that you find in a hobby store, like the Estes controller and tripod pad, works fine. It is a lot more fun to build your own. I still use some stuff that I built in 1974.(This message has been edited by rdclements)

Seattle,

You're right; those are important considerations. A common element in each of the WRFA course sections is how to prevent injuries, manage situations, and consider the impact of the event on the rest of a group. It is a real challenge to get so much into only a 16 hour course, but those topics are some of the best ones for participants to learn from each others' experiences.

Your comments remind me that one of the challenges that I've seen multiple times is the tension that can occur when the first aid expert is not the group leader. The leader must maintain command and control of the overall situation while listening to the recommendations of the primary aider. That can be a serious challenge for some.

Seattle:

From your description, it might be that the mountaineering course is more detailed about specific situations and environments. In creating the ARC WRFA course, the goal was to get more training that the basic FA course, and fit the most common situations/environments. Technical rescue techniques often required in mountain settings are also outside the scope of the ARC course.

I never realized that fear of water was so common. That's just not something I've encountered often.

Knowledge of what to do and the skill to do it are more valuable than the specific content of a kit. I don't think that the wilderness training is over the top for cub leaders. Have a few in your unit with training, not just you.

The kits that you can get at a store are often a good start. If you're doing mostly unit camping at council facilities, you can assemble stuff in a tackle box / tool box. The GTSS has a good list of items for a unit box.

I have several different 'kits' for different situations, for example the stuff I take backpacking is a lot smaller than the go bag that rides around in my car.

The Boy Scout Handbook, and Webelos Handbook have good suggestions on personal kit contents.

Things to consider for group outings: any pre-existing problems (diabetes, etc), size of group, duration of trip, environment.

I've participated in the SOLO course too. It was well presented by experienced instructors. If you can get to one, it is worth going.

In any training situation, there will be differences in experience and effectiveness of instructors. We've all had good and bad teachers. I'm confident that the BSA health and safety folks were aware of that when they decided to leverage the Red Cross with the new course. I'm not likely to ever be as qualified as many who I have learned from, but I've been told that I run a good class by folks who know more than I do. I've learned a lot since I did my last one in September and that will make the next one better.

There are over 11,000 volunteer leaders in my council, serving nearly 51,000 youth members. My district had 3,100 youth and 1100 volunteers in 2010. By running the ARC WRFA course in my district, I can help get s few more leaders better prepared to serve their units. There are folks on this board who can do it better than I can. Look at building your own training capabilities in your councils and districts.

Although the ARC course was constructed to match the BSA requirements, the material covered in the course easily fits many other situations. One of the scenarios we use is based on encountering injured persons after a tornado. I guess that's one reason for the course title being Wilderness and Remote First Aid. The skills and situations covered in the class can obviously be useful in many settings. I'd like to compare the ARC WRFA to the material covered in CERT courses.

To add to Brent's comments...

The ARC course was developed to address the BSA requirements. In March 2010, BSA Health and Safety Support Committee published the Wilderness First Aid Curriculum and Doctrine Guidelines, as developed by the Wilderness First Aid Task Force. The document can be downloaded from links on the WFA info page: http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/home/healthandsafety/training/wilderness_fa.aspx

Wilderness First Aid Task Force

William W. Forgey, MD - Task Force Chairman

Buck Tilton, EMT-W - Co-Founder, Wilderness Medicine Institute

Christine Cashel, EdD - Outdoor Leadership Educator

Charles (Reb) Gregg, Esq - Outdoor Education Legal Expert

Jeffrey L. Pellegrino, PhD - American Red Cross

Arthur (Tony) Islas, MD - Wilderness Medical Society

Loren Greenway, PhD - Wilderness Medical Society

Richard Bourlon - Boy Scouts of America

Ruth Reynolds, RN - Boy Scouts of America

Lindsay Oaksmith - American Red Cross

Richard M. Vigness, MD - Boy Scouts of America

Jennifer Surich - American Red Cross (Staywell)

Consultants:

David Bell, Ph.D. - BSA Aquatics Expert

Pat Noack, - BSA Aquatics Expert

Sven Rundman III - BSA Safety Expert

Brad L. Bennett, PhD CAPT USN (Ret) - Military Trauma Expert

The document also has this text on the title page:

Certification: Organizations and individuals may provide students who successfully complete the attached 16-hour curriculum a certificate of completion of a class that meets the criteria of the Boy Scouts of America for Wilderness First Aid (WFA). The content of this course may not deviate, either through additions or deletions, from the approved curriculum. This certificate will be valid for two years.

The most impact in the class environment comes from the practice scenario sessions. A good instructor helps facilitate the discussion with participants of their past experiences, leveraging them to increase the value to other participants.

I don't know if WRFA training is the "answer to everything". I think we're struggling to define a reasonable level of training: adequate for the field, but also attainable by many volunteers.

If your council is not already taking advantage of the BSA partnership with the ARC, make some calls and get a starter program going. Here's a link to some information about the BSA/ARC arrangement:

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/amredcross.aspx

The "new" ARC Wilderness materials were release early in 2010. A great next step would be to update the First Aid Merit Badge to the same level. BSA was a major contributor in the development of the new course, so it only follows that the course content represents the training that BSA desires in the field.

The ARC course addresses "Heat-Related Illnesses" in lesson 13, suggesting an hour to cover the lesson. After the lesson, participants should be able to:

- Define heat exhaustion, heat stroke and hyponatremia

- Describe the prevention of heat-related illnesses

- List the signs and symptoms of heat exhaustion, heat stroke and hyponatremia

- Describe the emergency treatment of and long-term care for heat exhaustion, heat stroke and hyponatremia

- Describe situations that would require an evacuation versus a rapid evacuation

For comparison, lesson 12 covers Hypothermia in about 45 minutes and includes a hands on exercise constructing an improvised hypothermia wrap.

I agree with the comments that there are limits to what can be expected of volunteers as well as limits to what is reasonable in a remote setting.

The new Red Cross Wilderness and Remote First Aid course was made to fit BSA's needs. It is a good course, well structured, runs a minimum of 16 hours and includes field practice scenarios.

Getting certified to teach it took some effort, but now our district training team is running the course twice a year; next in March.

Unit by-laws are not be needed - everything needed to run a unit is provided by the BSA. In my experience, by-laws are created to address other problems in a unit - and not successfully.

A well running PLC will comfortably and effectively establish and manage troop traditions. They can't change advancement or other major elements, but there are ways to have unit identity and the PLC should own those.