packsaddle

In the spirit of George Bush, I respond with one word...fabric glue.

In the klutzy circles I frequent, we tend to fall on our scabbards. They tend to bruise but then we also tend to make a lot of mistakes. Reminds me of my childhood with the little circles all over my body from girls taking dares and touching me with ten-foot poles.

Our troop is heavily weighted toward the younger boys. I have an instinctive caution regarding sheath knives because I see their cheap, ineffective sheaths and the rather careless way the boys carry them. But I can take care of this problem in my troop. It's the Rambo wannabe in the other troop that I worry about at camp. On the other hand, that razor-sharp folding knife...oh well, I guess I just worry a lot. Now let me see...where did I leave that scabbard?

mk9750, OK, the golf thing was a little tongue-in-cheek and a little personal humiliation. The only time I ever played a full round (and last), I teed off on the first hole and the club tipped the ball so it went perpendicular to the intended direction, across a highway, bounced off a pine tree back across the highway and into a pond. Then my game went bad. My partner nearly died from laughter. Needless to say, my score would have been the envy of Dow Jones. And I have since maintained a certain sympathy for Gerald Ford.

My assessment of Env. Sci. is from, let's see, 7 years of trying at camp and they simply haven't invested in a good counselor yet. So I have written that one off. But it seems that we are establishing a pattern on the others. The shooting sports do sometimes fall flat (I caught one counselor failing a lefty to whom he had assigned a right-handed bow for archery MB. The boy was literally in tears until we corrected the handedness problem.). But for the most part, camp at least gets the safety thing and that occupies a lot of my mind. Fore!

KS, I want to second your frustration with MBs and the need to tighten this area of scouting. I have also seen nearly identical problems, mostly associated with our camp counselors but not exclusively. I try to limit the damage by telling our boys to focus their energies on active badges (waterfront, shooting sports, etc.). In my experience these are usually fairly well-done at camp and the only opportunity for some of them. For all the others I try to know the program in advance of camp. Craft badges are so-so and mostly fun anyway. Scoutcraft badges are often well-done and sometimes the First Aid Lodge is super for their stuff. The knowledge-based MBs such as Citizenship X, Env.Sci., and the nature stuff are spotty and I try to visit in advance to identify the duds (most of them are). I flatly refuse to give permission to do Env.Sci. at summer camp, for example. And how does a boy complete Oceanography in a couple of days in the mountains? Hello? And Family Life? Please! In general I try to make sure my boys spend a minimum of time sitting idly for a MB at Camp. The more physical activity and outdoor time, the better, even if it's Golf.

OGE, I complain loudly about this to the council. They do understand the problem but they say their resources are limited, and they are right. I say, in that case, limit the MBs offered and do a good job with those.

Bob White, I think I understand you on all this. I mentioned the instructions we received at camp because at the time those instructions were the only authority for that camp. You may be correct that they disagree with BSA but it is a BSA Council-run Scout camp. FYI, on those occasions over the years I make myself unpopular by protesting loudly if tobacco is forbidden for the boys, the adults ought to be able to do without as well. Perhaps we have another rogue council in need of a good rebuke. I could also mention the Council camporees where entire troops attend with 'alternative' uniforms composed of full camouflage with BSA and Troop emblems on them.

Also, I assume you meant "illegal drugs" rather than "controlled drugs" because it seems perfectly right to advocate the appropriate use of prescribed medicine.

Bob White, I'll try to address your questions as I understand them. The difference is that the leaders who use tobacco or drink alcohol in public (and I know plenty of these leaders) are not dismissed - as long as those leaders do not promote the practice to the boys. This difference is quite clear. Regarding tobacco use, for example, at our camp such leaders are explicitly instructed by BSA "to try to keep the boys from seeing it" (use of tobacco). Thus it is clear that 1) BSA has knowledge of the leaders' addiction and 2) BSA actually condones the practice on BSA property (just try to hide it). Alcohol is strictly forbidden at camp but I know plenty of leaders who 'share the spirits' in public on numerous other occasions (beer preferences have been discussed peripherally in the past in these forums). As long as they don't promote alcohol use by the boys, BSA does nothing.

Legal drugs, as far as I know, have no restriction whatsoever for use by leaders (aside from whatever prescription limits apply). Illegal drugs, obviously, are illegal and their use constitutes an actual crime. In that case BSA not only can dismiss a leader but it also has the obligation to report the crime for prosecution.

Nice to hear from you again, Rooster. I don't remember saying that it is BSA policy to allow gays. What I said is that in application, gays are allowed as long as they keep quiet about it. It may not be a consistent matter as you point out in the Dade case (BTW membership in a gay college organization isn't exactly in the closet), but it does happen. Executive William T. Dwyer III confirms this if the quote by Lattera is accurate in the aforementioned url.

Lattera's statement, "He (Scout executive Dwyer) said, 'Well, there ya go.... You went and made your sexual orientation open. If you had just kept your mouth shut and been a good scout and employee, you wouldn't have this problem.' I (Lattera) said, 'I have a few more questions,' and Dwyer said, 'God bless you, Greg,' and hung up. That was the end of the conversation."

Scout executive Dwyer may or may not said what Lattera quoted him as saying, but I am waiting for Dywer's denial. But assuming the quote is correct, that particular executive seems to be saying precisely that if Lattera had not gone public, he would have been safe with BSA.

Regarding hypocrisy, I understand that you view the policy as rigid and clear. In that view there is no hypocrisy. However, if in practice, BSA turns a blind eye to quiet practicing gays, as I believe they do, then a judgement of hypocrisy seems accurate. Yet another element of hypocrisy also occurs in that case if in this practice, BSA condones the lie.

Any logical inevitability for this situation does not relieve BSA of that judgement. The only way to avoid it is to take the extraordinary measures you mention and root out all immoral persons. Rigid and clear. It would be interesting to see who was left standing at the end.

Because the subject is "here we go again....", here we go again.

Ghostdancer, the article cited by 'Its Trail Day'

demonstrates a long-standing problem with the policy that has been discussed ad nauseum in earlier threads. Specifically, BSA does allow gays as members and leaders so long as those gay members and leaders keep quiet about it. Gays are only dismissed when they proclaim such publicly. The hypocrisy of such application of the policy should be obvious.

Additionally, this leaves you (and us) with the knowledge that: 1) we do have gay scouts around us anyway, they're just quietly in the closet, and 2) BSA's policy will likely keep them in the closet for fear of being dismissed...and keep them quietly around us. We'll just never be quite sure, will we? Have a nice day.

janssenil, I just noticed your reference to the famous persons who either were ADD/ADHD or suspected that way. I just want to add that we are also superior at... ahem, how to put this delicately... romance. Not much relevance to the boys now, but they certainly have something to which to look forward.

Ed, my heart goes out to you and to the family of the young man, especially the parents. To lose a son or daughter is my worst dread, I hope that in time they can find peace.

Dsteele, It was my question and thanks for an informative answer. I tend to agree that there are few persons who would 1) have the time or expertise to wade through those documents (not me for sure) or 2) would want to anyway. But for anyone who challenged their council's funding decisions, an invitation to view the books might be a quick way to quiet them. Like you said, most of the persons at the top are human and they would probably be very capable at answering queries if asked directly. You know, since all this stuff is in spreadsheet form anyway, why not just put it on the web, you know, a button to download a copy?

Zahnada, I didn't see the 'us' vs 'them' element in BW's reply and I think he did not mean to be taken that way at all. I don't deny that such exists but it seems to just emerge from a lack of positive outreach by BSA (their policies don't help much). BSA's comparative silence often seems to provide silent confirmation of the characterizations that you describe. I think I understand your thoughts regarding the polarization of people and society...I guess I try to ignore the ugly side of all this and keep my sights on the boys and their program. It's hard to do. BSA rigidity has closed many options by making what seem to be unchangeable policies, nearly impossible to rescind. I have decided that any disagreement I may have with BSA will fall on deaf ears so I complain loudly anyway, if I get the time, and then I get on with the troop.

What's the chance that councils would open the books so we could explore their budgets? Or is this already possible? A lot of these questions would be laid to rest fairly quickly, I think.

Zahnada, I have heard those six things in different forms as well. Some have an element of truth. Good evidence to the contrary exists for 1), available to anyone with a critical view. The second misconception is held by many persons and certainly not confined to BSA. However, I just scanned my latest Eagletter and saw a very white document, probably dominated by Christians. 3) is obviously wrong but also an easy misconception. Any church with dominance in membership will tend to exert its influence, in this case LDS. The last one is curious because although not exactly correct, I cannot envision strong denials by BSA. I would indeed enjoy seeing a publicity campaign to counter these things (doth they protest too much?). Does anyone seriously think such would change many minds?

But your point is taken regarding the fit of BSA with a broadly-based organization like UW.

Dsteele, Wow and thanks for that great reply! I'm glad you did not take offense, it was not meant that way. Your reply was straight to the point and I learned a lot from it. A quick response to a couple of your comments, though. 1) We primarily see the DE and very little of the rest of the council (outside of camp) and our DEs have been so-so over the years. New ones arrive at regular intervals and we feel like there's nearly a year of training during which time we're left on our own (OK by us). Then there have been a few duds that actually cost us in terms of families leaving scouts (our Cub Scout pack nearly died from recent DE neglect, hopefully cured now). Others have been useful in different ways.

The point of this is that the DE is not necessarily the best ambassador for the council.

2) I believe that for our region (SE U.S.A.) a consolidation of some of the offices (or office functions) could happen with minimal pain, thereby reducing costs. Actually, some functions might be consolidated at a larger scale, considering the widespread use of media such as this, thereby taking some pressure off numerous local offices.

Lastly, and one my worst criticisms of BSA, I think that one area of the program needs to be repaired and maintained even if other areas receive cuts - database management. I sincerely believe that BSA, councils on up, does not understand the magnitude of time expended needlessly trying to clean up the mess of record-keeping that councils seem to have. Oops, this is getting too specific and into a gripe session. I did appreciate the info, though. Thanks.

Saltheart, I think I share your view. The early comment that BSA loses either way in the court case was right-on. The decision is in and there is no point to bellyache about the fallout. Just get on with the program with the resources we have.

Mark, I am afraid I don't have good solutions to your summer camp problem. The only problem you mention that we have confronted has been the food thing. We never schedule for the first week or two in order to avoid that problem. Even if the cook is back from previous years, they seem to have to climb a learning curve. Good luck.

My YPT stuff says, "The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organization as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders." Not sure this has anything to do with personal secrets. Oops, I thought this was the "Confidentiality" thread, oh well.

Certain leaders and boys of our troop keep secrets from each other all the time, especially the new guys. Such as the correct way to draw the 'man-in-the-moon' or how to cross the sticks in those two popular campfire games. One patrol keeps their killer recipes secret from the others (and, alas, the leaders). Seems trivial but BW, your rigid view doesn't seem to allow much opportunity for case-by-case judgement.

Back to the real topic, though, dsteele, I'm curious as to how the funding breaks out in application. Where does it all go. Outside of the summer camp, our troop sees zip from the council. In some respects (again outside the camp) the council could go away and we would be just fine. Supplies are shipped to us, we send forms by mail, I have hardly any idea who all those people are in the council office at those infrequent times when I go there.

Oops, off the subject again, to follow up on the funding allocation, if UWay bugs out, which areas of the overall BSA program take the hit?

I have observed (in a non-scientific manner) that when adults are not themselves ADD/ADHD, or if they do not personally have an ADD/ADHD child, such adults are less likely to understand 1) what the child is experiencing, and 2) appropriate responses to superficial behaviors. I wonder if anyone else out there has a similar observation.

In reference to the original question, a practical measure I try to use in behaviorally difficult situations is to feed everyone. And not with junk food but with something with protein and calories (meat, cheese, cream, noodles, etc.). As you might surmise, our troop eats very well. At their age, boys quickly focus on the food and afterwards they seem a little more manageable. It seems to level the field and provide a common focus, even if for only a while. And....it really does taste great, perhaps altering the mood of the leaders?....H'mmmm.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

OK, I share some of the skepticism and doubt expressed here. And I have learned a new term, "pencilwhipping" (I hope I have the correct meaning). BUT, it IS possible and until I see evidence to the contrary, I give the boy the benefit of my doubt and a verbal pat on the back. I have never seen anyone even come close to doing this, most of mine take years just to complete Env. Sci., for that matter almost any 500 word composition for any badge. But it is possible. My question is...can you really fit that many badges on a sash? Without using the back side?

Rooster7, it must be spring, you've come out of hibernation.

Joni4TA, I'm about to go TDY so I'll try to make this short. Neither you nor any other honest volunteer is a 'sucker'. The 'suckers' are the ones who don't get the benefit of your dedication because of their lack of it. You will get a lot of advice on how to tackle the problems you list: equipment, records, advancement, treasury, etc. I recommend that you do NOT quit, but keep trying.

Fighting the fight might help one's mood but I try not to let things like these affect the real goal that I believe exists for good adult leaders. This is not to say I don't get frustrated, I do. I have felt much of the same frustration you feel during my stints in various positions. I try to keep my focus on the only thing that is really important...the boys. When I do that, and see their bright faces, so full of promise, it is clear to me that they really are the ones who make the troop and the program...all we do is give some help and guidance to keep things on an even keel. All that other stuff just seems, well, petty.

Trying to keep this short, don't quit, the boys are better with you than without.

(or as my coffee cup says, 'Don't let the turkeys get you down')

dsteele, in my humble opinion, you'll never get what they're really worth on eBay, no matter what the bid. This would be a different matter if you had, say, bought them at a garage sale. The difference is that they are things that mark your life's accomplishments, no-one else's. Also, after dabbling there for a while, I have concluded that if you have managed to avoid eBay this long, keep up the good work, there are better things to do.

OK, I'm curious, what are the characteristics of a 'difficult volunteer'?

Indeed, this is interesting! I am a research scientist for the U.S. Army (no lie) and if I tell you more...well, you know. (just kidding I wouldn't do that) But in my spare time I also teach at a local university and quite a while back I was full time faculty. In the distant past I worked for industry...sweating long Southern days in the hot sun fabricating rebars for prestressed concrete structures.

ASM7, I very much sympathize with you. A few years ago, a drunk driver crossed the center line and nearly killed my entire family while on their way to school first thing in the morning. We (they) are still trying to recover fully.

TwoCubDad, good one.

mschwartz, I took both courses in two back-to-back summer sessions. Brutal! Because of that experience I take great pleasure in abusing my scouts by singing to them...shamelessly. Don't ask me what the connection is, I don't know.

Bob, I've been enjoying this from a distance but I must now confess:

I wear cheap ties, cost less than a gallon of gas, and I probably don't qualify as a clothes horse (my daughter is rolling her eyes in emphatic agreement). But I do like the fit and feel of the official scout pants (and the rest of the uniform for that matter) although I agree that the shorts are, well, hideous. I realize that I am in a minority opinion but I wanted you to see a positive statement in this thread. I do agree that they don't work well for some activities, swimming for example (although I've tried that by accident a few times).

Zorn, it is good to know that you didn't fall off the edge of the earth.

FYI, our troop does not allow camo or BDUs. If a family says they can't afford the pants we allow blue jeans or something similar. However, I agree with the cost comparisons.

Thanks!

Overtrained, can an out-of-council leader take the training on another council's web site? How do you arrange for the documentation (cards, etc.)? This would save a tremendous number of man-hours and open the training to many more persons.

OGE, I say that everytime I...uh, probably can't say that here. Wait a minute, are you clairvoyant? How'd you know about my slippers? Shhhhh, remember that 'over the rainbow' thing from another thread? I don't want the secret to get out. "I can always rely on the charity of strangers", can't I?

OK, my disclaimer for those of you who are, well, you know, 'wound just a little too tight' and you know who you are, ok no names, we're just joking. You're joking aren't you, OGE, right?

Saltheart, I'm with you completely. I too hope for his quick safe return and for similar return for all of his fellow soldiers.