packsaddle

I think Beavah pretty much nailed it. And I am also persuaded by what Bando wrote. Why do we do it? As far as I can tell, we do it because we always have...tradition. My memory goes back to the sixties and at that time there was no question about the service. We all attended and it was definitely Christian. Jews were incredibly rare in scouting and they just endured the experience. Other faiths were invisible to the point of practically being non-existent. This is not the case today. And this unit exercises the local option to break tradition, this one at least.

OGE, yeah I understood what you meant but it was a way to emphasize that in other areas, these services are sometimes weighted toward the majority faith...not a shock to anyone's intuition, I hope. Kahuna wrote, "They may not understand those views, but they would at least know they have to endure a certain amount of it." I agree. This fact is not exactly a good thing. I also consider the woods to be a superior venue. BadenP wrote, "If all your camp services are just Christian only in its orientation and content then you do a great disservice to all those non Christian scouts in your units." I also agree. These camp services are not mine but rather organized by the camp. I think I've noted before in older threads, that this unit has rarely chosen to have unit-level religious services (outside of Scout Sunday at the CO), partly because we do have a diverse group of boys. With regard to the generic service idea, I'm not even sure that there CAN be a religious service that is truly neutral and as someone else noted, if there was such a thing, THAT would probably cause concern for some people. With regard to the 'opt-out' approach. In my opinion if such an option is open to one or a few boys, then that option should be open to all of them. And in a boy-led unit, if the boys decide as a group to exercise the option not to attend a camp religious service in favor of some other activity, I support their decision.

"Camp wide worship services are not Christian based..." OGE, you need to visit some other parts of the country. WOW. In this unit the boy gets some free time back at camp, as Beavah suggested, along with at least two adult leaders and often along with the entire rest of this unit - if we give ALL the boys the same choice. Sadly, the alternative of letting a boy be excluded, even if by 'choice', is often viewed by the members of the majority faith as being fair to those in the minority.

A lamb her thirst was slaking, Once, at a mountain rill. A hungry wolf was taking His hunt for sheep to kill, When, spying on the streamlet's brink This sheep of tender age, He howl'd in tones of rage, 'How dare you roil my drink? Your impudence I shall chastise!' 'Let not your majesty,' the lamb replies, 'Decide in haste or passion! For sure 'tis difficult to think In what respect or fashion My drinking here could roil your drink, Since on the stream your majesty now faces I'm lower down, full twenty paces.' 'You roil it,' said the wolf; 'and, more, I know You cursed and slander'd me a year ago.' 'O no! how could I such a thing have done! A lamb that has not seen a year, A suckling of its mother dear?' 'Your brother then.' 'But brother I have none.' 'Well, well, what's all the same, 'Twas some one of your name. Sheep, men, and dogs of every nation, Are wont to stab my reputation, As I have truly heard.' Without another word, He made his vengeance good-- Bore off the lambkin to the wood, And there, without a jury, Judged, slew, and ate her in his fury. La Fontaine

Yikes, after reading these last responses I think I'll calm down for a while and just listen to some Mel Gibson phone recordings. Such emotion and passion and such anger! Dang that rap music! But I HAVE learned something in these last few responses: I have evidently missed a LOT of war movies somewhere along the way. That said, it is now time for me to teach you guys a lesson: If you had been picking blueberries with me (yes, those wimpy dark blue things that don't cause injury) none of this would have happened..or at least there might have been time for things to cool off a bit. I fear that the black berries are done. I'm going to have to really work, or else seek higher elevation, to get another pie full. But the blueberries, they're just hitting their stride, I got a gallon from just one bush last night...and it's just a taste (literally) of what's ahead. Yes, I agree, time to stick a fork in this one. Actually, no...in that pie I have waiting for breakfast. If these are the last words, I apologize for taking that from Beavah. Now...to gain some weight!

Buffalo Skipper, your unit is going to a great place. When I was a scout our troop did our summer campouts in the GSMNP. We had the base camp and we'd radiate out to hike to the top of Mt LeConte, or to the top of the Chimneys, or out to the Jump Off or Charlie's Bunyan, so many other possibilities. So many great memories. Your guys are going to have a great time.

" When yeh don't use Philmont or Seabase or whatnot, the lads get oodles more experience planning, yeh get to tailor your trip to their interests and needs and ability, and yeh can run a 3 week adventure for less money than the shorter High Adventure Base treks. But it's more work, takes more skill and experience and commitment than average." I completely agree and these are several of the reasons I prefer the non-BSA alternatives. The boys have a much better time as well and ALL of the boys in the troop can go, including the young ones less than 14 years old. If the young guys have a problem, the older ones help them learn solutions...or just help. The sense of camaraderie is much greater. Edited to add: It isn't a necessary part of the experience to work on merit badges. I support the idea of just having a great time exploring or (horrors!) working on scoutcraft and pioneering skills. These are the kinds of things that some of us complain about later (not being able to tie xxxx knot at BOR). Let these wilderness companions experience real companionship. Let the MB process be truly individual as it should be - at some other time.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

Gern, I confess you lost me with the jelly doughnut. But I'm tired and completely lacerated from picking blackberries all afternoon. Got a few gallons, this year is a great crop and it's almost over. It's amazing how no matter what care you take snaking an arm through the brambles, at least one of those recurved thorns will hook into skin and then as you pull back with a hand full of berries, it will pull more thorns into the arm...but the berries are worth it so you just drag yourself out bleeding and full of thorns broken off in the skin and....say, is that poison ivy in there as well?...oh well, the berries are still worth it....hey, there sure are a lot of yellow jackets buzzing around suddenly...but the berries are still worth it...and, well, each of them evidently can sting more than once so you jerk your arm out a little carelessly and now that set of canes that you had carefully avoided right behind you...now you just bumped them and a couple are embedded in your scalp...but the berries are worth it as you turn, bleeding, covered with sweat and bees, and man, the last time I felt anything like that in my scalp was when I took a girl friend fishing and she stuck a Kastmaster into my head at high velocity but at least that was just a treble hook, this thing is like a saw blade leaving teeth behind...I gotta get away from those bees, but the berries are worth it...and chiggers and oh heck, I just spilled the berries - I have to pick all of them off the ground in all these brambles, this will take a while, they're worth it...eeeeyoooowwwww I've been squatting on a fire ant mound. But the berries are worth it. Just like when I was a boy...without the snakes. I long for those snakes. I'm home now, berries packed for the freezer to be carefully rationed until next crop. H'mmm, that's gotta be the 10th tick so far...and embedded too. Worth it. I think I feel a chigger bite starting to itch. Those berries are really going to be good. Now, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, Eagledad, I intended that to be speaking to myself, no need for me to read further but I did anyway. Oh well. The berries are really great this year, I think I'll do it again tomorrow.

I wasted my time and read the entire thread. Kahuna gave the answer...no need to read further. This unit has had a broad range of faiths as members, including the adult leadership: Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Jainism, Baha'i, Sikh, as well as some of the usual '28 flavors' of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Kahuna's response applies to all. If the applicant is able to agree to the terms, that is all that is needed...indeed, all that CAN be required. For this and other reasons, I consider the DRP to be stupid and ineffective, kind of like the stupid and ineffective approach to gays. I do know Buddhists who are atheists in scouting. If Merlyn's point is that an atheist is an atheist, no matter what else a person calls himself, and BSA ought to exclude all of them, then I think Merlyn is consistent with his point. The fact that BSA doesn't apply the DRP to exclude these scouts and scouters indicates to me that BSA also agrees with Kahuna. It helps keep the numbers up while insincerely placating the '28 flavors'.

I'm a member. It's little more than a subscription as far as I can tell.

Gags, I suspect you know this already but....the bulb of the thermometer is in the center. The stem extends out from the 'immersion' point. Actually mine has a thermistor in the center, connected to a electronic readout. It's pretty old, I think it originally had a thermocouple. You can make a pretty good approximation of one if you seal a stick thermometer with a 76 mm immersion length into an old copper or brass toilet float. You still need to 'smoke' it with carbon black. I just love antique instruments. Makes one appreciate the new ones as well as the ingenuity it took to do the work way back when.

Moosetracker, thank you for your sincere thoughts. I have another question. Do you think that something that is man-made is not real?

Ed, yes, a belief and an opinion are basically the same thing. As I've posted in the past, hell is a myth and Satan (whatever name) does not exist, also a myth. There is no positive evidence for the existence of either of them. Moosetracker, I'm curious as to why 9/11 affected your faith in any way? What about 9/11 raised questions in your mind, questions that can't be asked for any other human-caused tragedy? Actually, my question applies to 'natural' catastrophes as well. I add that the only time I have had a scout 'grilled' about his faith was by a district Eagle coordinator/advancement person who had a different faith. When he learned the faith of the scout, the district person proceeded to hold an inquisition. He is no longer serving in that capacity. So....someone help me connect all this to the thread topic on homosexual scouts?????

Sheldonsmom, Without knowing ALL of their qualifications or seeing their application materials I couldn't make a good judgment with regard to your son and daughter. And, like I wrote, I can't speak for all colleges. I can say that a college that turns down a better-qualified applicant because of gender alone tends to weaken that program. As for scholarships, it depends on the nature of the scholarship. Private ones can target whoever they want. Athletic scholarships are indeed often aimed at certain students, sometimes specifically women, and some of this is due to Title IX which was specifically aimed at bringing women's sports into some kind of parity with men's sports (which, I add, still get most of the attention among those whose idea of college is centered around sports). The athletic scholarships at this school are privately funded so they have complete discretion during recruiting. Purely academic scholarships at this school only take academic qualifications and financial needs into account. Targeted scholarships do exist for the purpose of recruiting minorities, for example, into programs like engineering. However, those applicants must first compete for admission head-to-head with others without regard to gender or ethnicity. If they are accepted, THEN they get access to financial assistance. If your son was the superior applicant, he will have no trouble being accepted to even better quality programs than those to which he applied. Congratulations to your daughter. I add that in the past I have noted in these threads that after reviewing scores of competing projects for special recognition in the sciences (the process was blind to student names or any person information), and the selection committee having agreed on a hierarchy of merit, when we then attached names and gender to the hierarchical list, the list was almost perfectly sorted...with all of the best ones completed by females, males having been eliminated early in the competition. We were shocked the first time this happened. But over the years, we have seen this pattern each year with an occasional exceptional male (usually from another country) making it into the top group. This is a pattern that I also observe in my classes. Women are not necessarily the best of the class but they are consistently more represented in the top group. I repeat these things because again, I think that if the males were isolated from these excellent young women, I doubt their academic performance would improve. On the contrary, I think it is good for them to know they just got their academic butts kicked by the women. Maybe they'll grow up, leave the skate board and games at home, and learn something from the women who DO take learning seriously.(This message has been edited by packsaddle) Naaaaahhhh!(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

My wife calls me a 'moron'. So I guess that will have to be, "Cool, I am a moron." Now, once in a while she calls me a "humorless WASP with thin Nazi lips". And I object strongly...I DO TOO have a sense of humor! OGE, don't even think about it...

"...college admissions are weighted toward women." I can't speak for all colleges but I think this school is fairly normal with regard to admissions and I know the criteria. There is no weighting "toward women" in any of the programs. Some programs do have a greater proportion of women but that reflects either the gender ratio of the applicants or a gender-associated ratio of academic qualifications. The dominant weighting is for well-prepared, smart people.

Scoutfish, you asked what you would be called. Why do you ask that? If someone did apply a label how would you respond? Since you evidently don't have a label in your own mind, I suppose that you might be critical of any label....therefore, why ask for one? Alternatively, you do seem to WANT to have a label. So why not create one for yourself? It might be unique but at least you'll have that label.

One point of clarification, small point...I actually have a globe thermometer. It is used to measure the resultant temperature due to radiant energy from ALL sources: sun, sky, ground, trees, buildings, water, etc. That's why it is spherical, it presents the same absorbing surface in all directions (sometimes they are referred to as a 4 pi collector) and a thermometer is mounted at the precise center of the interior of the sphere. They are usually painted black with a special paint that absorbs radiant energy very well. I saw one that had to be coated with carbon black. The idea is to make it close to a black body absorber. The resultant temperature integrates the net result of all radiant exchanges, even the losses from the sphere to the environment. It is an easier measurement than trying to measure or calculate all of those radiant sources and then integrate them mathematically. But for some wavelength ranges (i.e. visible or PAR) a similar approach can use a light detector in an integrating sphere. I'm guessing this is more than anyone wanted so I'll stop here.

"I don't see it happening though until the LDS church backs out of the BSA. Many church members don't see that too far away, maybe 5 years at the most!" jhankins wrote that back on page two. I have no idea what that is all about. I also have no idea who it is you think is trying to nail LDS to a tree. To me the fundamental issue is whether individual CO's and units can exercise freedom of choice with regard to membership. As I was one of the respondents who mentioned their daughters and precipitated this thread, I would extend membership choice to include female youth members. To the extent that refusal to allow this choice inhibits competition, it tends to go against market forces. I find this ironic for an organization whose membership sometimes claims to embrace what some consider to be 'conservative' values. I put apostrophes around the word 'elite' to indicate that seems to be a (false) self-image.

I was writing about BSA. I consider religions to be inherently closed to market economics, by design. By 'elite' I meant the BSA leadership who seems to be resistant to opening things up.

...or they could allow options for the CO's to choose from. I don't understand why this organization is so dead-set against an 'open market' approach. Is it because they want to keep power consolidated in the hands of just a few of the 'elite'?

Thanks for that perspective, Moggie, I was completely unaware of most of that. LIBob, (yes, I understand you're not really listening) the local option would allow you (or your CO) to continue as is, excluding whoever. And it would allow, say, this unit to throw the doors open. We would have little or no effect on you and yours. In both cases the unit, through a variety of mechanisms, would more closely reflect the community it serves. I am having some trouble in finding the bad aspects of this. Help me out. Edited part: Beavah, my curiosity has finally taken over (and since I'm not a cat, I think I'm out of danger), but I keep asking myself, "What, exactly, does 'jumped da shark' mean?" Also, Thomas54, you wrote, "Here's why I wouldn't want girls in the Boy Scouts. The boys are already losing to girls in colleges attendance, and in leadership positions at the high school level. The boys get labeled more time then girls with ADHD. Boys more than girls need an environment to craft the personal, group and leadership skills that will support their life's ambitions." See, the thing is...the boys are not competing well with the girls, getting labeled, and generally in need of those things that you mention in the current situation in which we are not coed. Using the same basis, I could argue with equal validity that the sad situation you describe is BECAUSE we are not coed. At the very least, the program as is obviously does NOT help support the boys' "life's ambitions." I could argue that it would do the boys some benefit to interact more with other youth of either gender who take studies and work more seriously, who are eager to take on responsibilities and work hard to see things to completion, who HAVE found the personal skills to remain focused on tasks and ideas... rather than isolate these failing youth as a group to themselves. Now I'll pinch myself, for a moment it was almost as if LIBob was really listening.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

In China I was advised never EVER to gesture to anyone with the index finger doing the very common and familiar (in this country) 'come here' gesture. I was told that it is considered to be extremely obscene (think about it). NJ, I can barely do it. The position of the fingers in that sign is very difficult to achieve because the tendons of the adjacent fingers and fourth finger are very often partially connected by fibrous tissue. To test if your hand has independent tendons, place it flat on a table, fingers outstretched. Then one-by-one, attempt to raise each finger while leaving the others pressed flat to the table. The index finger works great for me making it a great one to point with. The middle one works too, as does the pinky. But that fourth finger seems to be anchored to the table and only lifts slightly. I guess Hinduism is not in the cards for me as well.

A knock on the door and Yortuk and Georg Festrunk turn toward each other and in unison exclaim, "Foxes!!" Hi Vicki

You know me...as an ultra-right-wing liberal I think the market-based approach is best - local option. Personally, I'm ok with coed all the way. Let GSUSA compete if they can...the competition might give them incentive to improve their product.