NJCubScouter

Ed says:

Votes middle of the road

Ed, not that it's any of my business, but are you more than one person using an account name? And I have seen you say before that you are a Democrat, which is also somewhat puzzling given some of the things you say.

Oh, and so I won't get accused of going off-thread; I'm still right-handed. Everybody in my family is right handed, and since some of them are current or former Scouters or Scouts, I guess they count too.

Bats right, throws right, writes right.

Though some may think I lean a bit to the left.

Bob says:

I know that the BSA thinks that communication skills are important, and that citizenship is a key element in advancement, and that developing citizenship is an aim. So I see no problem in the use of debate to help hone speaking skills, encourage knowledge of current events and the electoral process.

HOWEVER, like any activity in scouting there should be some training involved first. And as the Sweet 16 of Safety points out, you should have an experienced person leading the activity. So I would recruit someone with actual debating experience to teach the rules and methodology of proper debating so that I was not just hosting a spitting contest.

(as an aside) I would have the scouts defend the view that was contrary to the one they held personally. This would be a good lesson in learning to see life from both sides before you take a stand on an issue. Plus it takes greater skill and energy to do it well.

I agree with Bob. Personally I love "debate" especially in the formal sense that you are talking about. I did it competitively in high school (my parents still have the trophies on their bookcase) and judged high school debates while in college. I was going to respond in the "debate" thread, but I went camping instead.

I think the reason why some people might shy away from "debate" is that the word often evokes, in Bob's most delicate phrase, a spitting contest. These days, what passes for political debate is most often seen in places like Fox News Channel and CNN, and the level of discourse is deplorable. Most of the participants attack the person they are debating, or others, and the contest seems to be who can talk the loudest and fastest to drown out the adversary and the host. The positions are often transparently partisan, in other words the person is taking a position because that is the one that benefits his or her party. Often the issue becomes what is going to happen, rather than what should happen (which violates a rule of formal debate.)

But the idea of a formal debate, which I would suggest be on a specific issue-oriented proposition, rather than "which party is better," would be fine. The idea of switching sides is a feature of varsity high school debate, or at least it was 30 years ago. In the course of a one-day tournament there would be three or more different debates against different teams, and I would be on the "affirmative" side once or twice and the "negative" side once or twice. The topics were within a narrow range all on the same subject, so I often would be arguing contrary to what I had been a half hour earlier.

So I never meant to suggest that this is something the BSA would discourage. I was more curious about whether there are actually any written materials that encourage it. If there are, I hope they incorporate what Bob has suggested.

Rooster asks me:

Are you suggesting that adult leaders must not or should not come up with any ideas unless there is BSA documentation that specifically endorses the same?

Of course not. I am curious as to what BSA program materials do say about prayer. I want to know if the BSA confirms your opinion, mine or neither.

Rooster, this whole debate that we have on this subject really boils down to one sentence of yours from a previous post:

If the chartering organization has no religious affiliation (i.e., LDS, etc.), I don't feel it should be a unit decision. It should be the Scout or Scouter's decision as to how he says a prayer.

In the context of the discussion, you seem to be saying that in a non-religiously-chartered troop, the SPL should not stand up in front of the troop at the end of a meeting and lead the troop in a standard prayer (i.e. same one at every meeting.) That's what you are saying, right? If so, that's fine, we disagree. I was not "baiting" you as you accused me of earlier in this thread. I am not suggesting that every unit should do this. I am saying that there is nothing wrong with a unit doing this if that is what it decides to do. I asked if there are any BSA program materials to the contrary, and it does not seem like there are.

By the way, I do not know where my son's troop would stand in your personal view of things, but it is chartered to a religious organization (a Presbyterian church) AND at the end of every troop meeting the SPL leads the Scouts in the "Great Master of all Scouts" prayer. And I agree with Bob, it is the Scout's responsibility to make this prayer meaningful for himself. Or to paraphrase one of your posts, the Scout can silently change the address. I suspect that Buddhist, Hindi, Islamic etc. Scouts also do this when promising to do their duty to "God."

Rooster also says to me:

Certainly they support the idea of boys embracing their faith and being active citizens. That being the case, why would you suggest that encouraging boys to pray and/or to engage in political discourse is not kosher? They are consistent with the goals of the BSA.

And why would you suggest that I suggested that? I never did.

Jumping Jiminy Crickets.

The third paragraph of my previous post was something that must have been in my copy-paste buffer from a post in another thread. (Bob wrote it, except for the word "Fat.") I must have hit the wrong button. I cannot edit posts for reasons that I cannot figure out, though the forum manager has tried to help me. I need to keep remembering to check the "preview" box.

So please disregard the third paragraph.

As either of my grandmothers would say if they were still with us, Oy vey.

I agree with KoreaScouter. If it walks like a unit-related activity and quacks like a unit-related activity, I think the leaders run the risk of being dead ducks if anything happens. (Hey, that was pretty clever if I do say so myself.) My son's former pack had the same issue with a "whitewater" trip for Webelos. G2SS essentially says that Cub Scouts (no exception for Webelos) do boating on lakes, not rivers (among other requirements, of course.) Some of the parents in the Webelos den (including a leader) ended up doing it as a "family activity" even though other leaders said this was not good enough. There were no non-Webelos involved, so you tell me whether it was a pack- or den-related activity. It was in my book. My son (and I) were out of the pack by that time and on our own camping trip that weekend.

As for laser tag, I recall a discussion about that in this forum, and I thought that the G2SS was not clear on this subject. Was this a recent addition? The current language seems pretty clear to me.

Fat The problems that Rooster sites in his initial post comes from units who have made a decision to not follow the program. The solutions he proposes in a later post can almost all be found within the written program resources.

FatOldGuy, why do you have to say things like that? You know that the BSA is not saying what you should and shouldn't do on your "own time." (Other than that you must obey the law.) The BSA does say that it is appropriate for persons of appropriate age to learn and practice target shooting within the BSA. They also say that you are not going to practice shooting at people (or animals) within the BSA. If you want to practice that, against the day when you might legally have to shoot someone in defense of self or others, you need to do it outside the BSA.

Ramming speed!

(A line that is funny mainly because it was ripped off from another movie.)

I wonder what the few forum members (if any) who have never seen "Animal House" must be thinking right about now.

BobWhite says:

The problems that Rooster sites in his initial post comes from units who have made a decision to not follow the program. The solutions he proposes in a later post can almost all be found within the written program resources.

This, by the way, is the reason why I did not discuss most of Rooster's suggestions: I did not have a problem with them. Although I do not have occasion to read the BSA's current "written program resources," most of these things sounded familiar either from my own Boy Scouting as a youth or from what my son's troop does now. However, Bob uses the word "almost," and my focus was on things that Rooster suggested that I felt were questionable within the Scouting program. So, hooking Bob's and Rooster's posts together, what I'd like to know is:

What do the BSA's program resources say about a suggestion that one "encourage heart-felt prayers, not just generic ones?" In other words, what does the BSA say about the idea that the generic group prayers heard at many troop meetings or other events are not "heart felt" and that everybody should be given the opportunity to pray in their own manner?

Second, what does the BSA say about encouraging boys to "debate political issues"? There was another thread about this, but in that case all the impetus came from the boys. Is this something the BSA actually promotes?

I would find out the answers myself on the Internet except that I know that the BSA's official program resources are copyrighted, and of course nobody would put copyrighted materials on the Internet.

I first noticed something was out of whack at a troop meeting a few weeks before summer camp, when my son was given a schedule to fill out for and met with an ASM to discuss what he should "take." It was confirmed when my son came home.

First of all, I don't remember things being so regimented when I went to summer camp as a youth. You got there and there was a schedule for merit badges, and you went to what you wanted to go to. I do see that there is a value to having a schedule in advance for purposes of staffing, but this seems to be a symptom of making summer camp into an advancement factory.

It must be understood that my son is 11 years old, having crossed over from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting on or about April 1. At his first troop meeting he fulfilled the requirements for the Scout badge. So far so good. He has been gradually satisfying requirements for Tenderfoot and Second Class at troop meetings and the two weekend camping trips he has been on. As of summer camp, and including what he passed there, he is still Scout, but guess what? He has three merit badges, and is very close to a fourth (First Aid, no less.) That is where things start to seem backward to me.

At this summer camp, there was a "Dan Beard" program for Tenderfoot through First Class requirements. Fine, I thought. Let him go to that every day and hopefully there will be enough opportunity for the staff to work with him on his remaining items for Tenderfoot. However, at the scheduling meeting, while they did sign him up for Dan Beard, they also put him down for several merit badges. One of them was First Aid. I asked the ASM, but he first is going to do the First Aid requirements for Tenderfoot, 2C and 1C, right? Of course, says he.

When I pick him up from summer camp, I'm told that the advancement coordinator holds on to the blue cards and Dan Beard sheets and enters it into the computer at the first troop meeting of the school year, and from there it is all entered into the book. So we get to the first troop meeting, and I learn that he still has a few to go for Tenderfoot, although he is now halfway to second class. But he has earned the Leatherwork, Fingerprinting and Textiles merit badges. (The second of those seemed to me to be a somewhat "marginal" badge to earn at summer camp, this camp also offers Atomic Energy and Chemistry, so who knows.) And here's the kicker, the advancement coordinator says my son has a partial on First Aid, let's look at the card. He still needs one requirement, Number 1. What is number 1? "Satisfy your counselor that you have current knowledge of all first aid requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks." Hello? What's wrong with this picture? Wouldn't it have made a lot more sense for someone to work with my son on the first aid requirement for the rank he is currently, actually going for? And then the next 2 ranks? As it is, he now has done everything he needs for an EAGLE REQUIRED merit badge except to show that he fulfilled the parts of the subject required for Tenderfoot, 2C and 1C.

Now, one might say, what is the role of NJCubScouter in all this? Well, as a father, my understanding is that I am supposed to have no role at all. As a troop committee member, my role in advancement overall is extremely limited. And what about NJCubScouter's son? Shouldn't he be taking a more active role in "managing" his own advancement? I sure think so. But he's 11, for crying out loud. Somewhere between the troop leadership (SM/ASMs) and the summer camp staff, someone (here's me tying this ramble back to this thread) is placing too much emphasis on merit badges.

Welcome back littlebillie! Wow, almost a full month without a post. I knew something was missing from the forums, but I wasn't sure what it was.

I had decided I was not going to be the one to keep this thread going, and then a camping trip got in the way. (Pretty poor attendance due to the rain; and some poor communications about when this trip was going to be; and the high school and middle school sports schedules getting into full swing. I went mainly to induce my 11-year-old son into going, and ended up being the "second adult" behind the Scoutmaster, not counting the 18-year-and-2-month-old "Assistant Scoutmaster" who unfortunately by his conduct did not really count as an adult leader. But if I decide to go into that, it will be in another thread and probably a different part of the forum.)

But anyway, I can't really let FatOldGuy's statement about the "God of the Jews" go by, although I see Rooster already responded to it. Here it was:

As I read the Old Testament, the God of the Jews does not say that there is no other god, just that you can put no other god before him which would make him the Supreme God.

I'd say there are 3 issues here, translation, interpretation and actual belief, and the third one is really the only one that count. But just for the record, according to www.biblegateway.com (using the "default" version), the phrase can be translated as "no other gods before me" or "no other gods besides me. The latter translation, using "besides" in the sense of "other than," would have to be interpreted to mean, "You shall have no other gods" or if you like, "There are no other gods." Even the "before" translation can be interpreted to mean the same thing, though admittedly it is ambiguous. The "I am the only God" interpretation is also supported by the previous sentence which begins "I am the Lord thy God..."

But as I said, the most important thing is what Jews (and Christians) actually believe, not how you or I or anyone else would interpret it. And that believe is that there is one God, and that the passage in question means that there is one God.

I'd also add somewhat in response to what Rooster said, that there is another, less "symbolic" way to interpret the "other gods" reference. It was always my understanding that the "other gods" was a reference to the various local "gods" (Baal, etc.) and idols the Jews encountered while in the lands controlled by the indigenous peoples of Egypt and the Holy Land. Often the Jews themselves would "fall into" worshipping these idols, as in the story of the Golden Calf (which occurs after God gives Moses the Ten Commandments for the first time, but before the people actually see or hear the commandments.) After that (see Exodus 32 through 34) God says in effect "Hey, I really mean it. No more idols." So then, "no other gods before me" (or "besides me") means, these other "gods" you see being worshipped and who you have worshipped, are not God.

Just want to add, as someone else said, the role of JASM's differs from troop to troop. He could work with boys on completing Tenderfoot, 2nd Class and 1st class requirements just as the ASM's do. He could provide instruction in Scouting skills. He could work with the Troop Guide, not to do his job, but just to make sure everything is going smoothly with the new scoup patrol, and give advice. Or any of a number of other things. Or sometimes he could just follow around the SM or ASM's and watch what they do and learn how to do it.

I would also say (as I think someone else also suggested) to remember that no matter how "adult-like" a JASM's role may become, he is still a youth for purposes of Youth Protection and other rules.

CubsRgr8, a JASM does not necessarily have to be an Eagle Scout. He does have to be at least 16 but not yet 18. In my son's troop it appears that the JASM is typically a Life Scout (who, like most of the other Eagles, finishes the Eagle requirements at the "last minute," turns 18, and either vanishes off to college or becomes an "ASM," the "ASM" being in quotation marks for a good reason, but that would be another thread.)

At last night's troop meeting I listened closely as the boys spoke into their folded arms (which of course muffles the sound) and what they are actually saying begins "May the Great Master of all good scouts..." As opposed to Great Scoutmaster. I did an Internet search and both versions and other variations appear, some with "good" and some without, and some with other words at the end, and some that use this as a preface to a much lengthier prayer.

I guess it's all a matter of custom. I'd be interested to know if the BSA has ever actually published these (or other) prayers anywhere. If so, I have not noticed them.

So, is "Great Master" better as opposed to "Great Scoutmaster"? It creates less of a chance that the boys will think they are importuning the man with the walrus mustache standing at one end of the room (who himself is speaking the benediction.)

From what I have seen, different units have different "customs" on whether Committee Members ("MC") (which is what you presumably are registered as) wear uniforms. In the troop for which I am a MC, I have seen almost all of the MC's in uniform at one time or another at troop meetings, but it seems to be a matter of whether the mood strikes during a particular week. I have not been wearing my uniform to troop meetings. I have been wearing it to Eagle Courts of Honor. Just as a random sample, last night the CC was wearing his uniform (actually still with his SM patch, which I wish he would change since he has not been SM since March), and the four or five others (including me) were not, but I have seen it where more than half the committee members were wearing it.

You might ask the Committee Chair whether and when she wears a uniform, and follow her lead if that is what you are comfortable with.

OGE is right, the "Great Scoutmaster" is whatever deity the boy believes in, and can emcompass any belief system. If instead of a specific "God" the boy believes in a "spirit" or spiritual force or forces, of whatever name, then that is what is being asked to watch over us. (That would take in Buddhism and at least some Native American religions, by my understanding.) It also covers polytheism, whether that consists of many separate gods, or one god in many manifestations (and I have heard explanations of Hinduism that fall into each category). The Great Scoutmaster could be one of these gods or manifestations, or all of them together. It's up to the boy.

FatOldGuy, that reminds me of when I was driving my son home from his third or fourth troop meeting. I had observed that the troop did that benediction every time, and I also saw that nobody had explained it to my son, he was just doing what everybody else was doing. So I asked him whether he knew who the Great Scoutmaster is. His answer was, "God?", with the question mark. So I said, that's right, God.

Now some might say, aha, this story works against my point that this is an acceptable prayer for a troop that decides to use it. I don't think so. I suspect that if after my son's first 30 days of kindergarten, during which he had recited the Pledge of Allegiance 30 times, i had asked him what "allegiance" meant, he probably would not have known the answer at all, even with a question mark. (As I sit here, I have to wonder what percentage of American adults today would not know the correct answer either.) The point is that he knew, or came to know, that he was expressing love, devotion, respect etc. for his country. Same thing with the Great Scoutmaster, if you know what it means then it has the meaning it is supposed to have. And you do know what it means, references to Baden-Powell aside.

Which leads to another example. One of the several common references to God is as "Lord." In the standard Jewish blessing, the first line includes three references to God, the first of which is translated into Englsih as "Lord." (Baruch ata Adonai, Elohenu, Melech H'Olam = Blessed art thou O Lord, our God, King of the Universe.) Now, "Lord" can mean other things as well, including (which is why I bring it up) Lord Robert Baden-Powell. But in a prayer, we don't mean him.

All I am really saying is that if it works for a unit, it works, and if the unit wants something else, that's fine too. I'm not telling anybody what to do.

My son's troop had its annual planning meeting at summer camp this year. While I was there to pick up my son, the SM said to a group of us parents that the first troop meeting after the summer break would be on September 11. He did not say it with any irony or fanfare, he could have been telling us about a meeting on September 25 or June 12 or any other day.

At that moment I realized that it was the first time in almost two years that I had heard anyone mention the date "September 11" as a date on the calendar, for a regular, routine event. Before then (and even since then), all references to September 11 were either to the events of 9/11/01 or to events (last year or this year) to commemorate the anniversary. But at that moment, it was just another day. I guess we cannot cut this day out of the calendar as a day to live our normal lives, but it just didn't sound quite right. When I am at tonight's troop meeting, I don't think it is going to feel quite right, either. I do not know if the SM or the boys have anything planned to mark the date. I do know that we have a camping trip this weekend for which very little advance planning appears to have been done (other than to determine, by phone, who is going) so I imagine the meeting will probably revolve around that. Just another meeting.

I do know that when I was driving to work this morning and listening to the ceremonies in New York with children reading the names of the deceased, including their own fathers or mothers, it sure did not seem like just another day. I don't think it ever will, at least not for a long time.

Packsaddle, your comment about the SM who is devout and is "conflicted" about expressions of faith to the boys, made me think about my son's troop. I realize that I do not know what religion or denomination any of the leaders of the troop are, though I could make a good guess in some cases based on names or other circumstances. I never hear them talk about religion, except when it is an offhand comment like how someone saw so-and-so at church, or how someone can't make a meeting or trip because their church is having some event that day. Of course, I have only been with this troop for five months. With the Cub Scout pack of which I was a leader for 2.5 years, we did sometimes have announcements encouraging the boys to earn religious awards, mainly on those very rare occasions when a boy had earned one. I did know what religion or denomination some of the pack and den leaders were, because I had more opportunity to get to know some of them and go to their homes. (And the one or two other Jewish names are usually fairly obvious, though that is not always a sure bet either.) Discussions among Webelos leaders and parents of selecting a troop also often invoke passing references to religious affiliation, because some troops are chartered to churches of they are members.

But in the units of which I have been a part, as an adult, overall religion is rarely mentioned except for brief standard prayers and graces, as I have said. My son told me that grace was said before meals at summer camp, and I suspect that again it was a very brief generic grace.

My whole point about this really is that I think that the practices I have described seem to have served the needs of the members of these units. Otherwise, they probably would have been changed. The needs of other units might require different practices.

Packsaddle says:

Only ONE Issues&Politics thread active today and it's about...cooking sherry. I think the world is doing just fine. And it is good to know that here we are at peace on this eve.

Ironically, however, on the Open Discussion board, Rooster and I seem to be debating about the role of prayer in the Scouting program. At least, we were a few hours ago, I am going back to check there now...

Rooster defines the kind of prayers that should be said at Scout gatherings as follows:

Instead of saying a short rote prayer, where by a few if any, actually grasp and/or embrace the meaning (but everyone mindlessly repeats) - I am suggesting a prayer that is from an individual's heartnot rehearsed or from a book, and addresses concerns that are close to that individual and those around him.

I'm going to try to say this in a way that does not "disqualify" this thread from being in the "Open Discussion" topic. Because this thread is partly about religion and its place in Scouting, it is obviously knocking on the door of what should be in "Issues and Politics" already.

Rooster, first of all, are you saying that a prayer "rehearsed from a book" cannot be "heartfelt"? Forget Scout meetings for a moment. Don't worship services from all the major religions involve prayers "rehearsed from a book"? Maybe I shouldn't say that because I have never been at a worship service in a Protestant church, not counting weddings. But they (you) do have prayer books there, right? In those religions/denominations where I have attended multiple times (Jewish, which I am at least by upbringing and ethnicity if not actual practice, and Catholic, which my wife is), unless I was missing something, the prayers are generally all out of a book, though few actually need the book. I suspect that those who worship in those religions might take offense at your characterization of what is not "heartfelt," as it could easily be interpreted to apply to their services. I doubt there are many people who would say their own prayers are not heartfelt, even if they are talking about prayers they have been reciting since they were six years old... or in the case of the Great Scoutmaster, since their first meeting of a troop where this custom is observed.

But that aside, I am not sure how all of these lengthy, individualized prayers would work in Scouting. Is it one per event? Does everybody have to do one at some point? Does this include both boys and adults? I would also point out that not everyone who believes in God (under whatever name) necessarily believes in prayer, and as I suggest above, it appears to me that your view of what is required for a heartfelt prayer is not necessarily accepted in all major religions. Also, when you get into "addressing concerns," it sounds like you are not just talking about a prayer, it almost becomes a speech with a prayer inside it. Is that appropriate at all Scout gatherings?

I think the whole point of the Great Scoutmaster and other similar prayers is to address the needs of a diverse population, and also to provide something that everybody knows. It works regardless of what ones conception of God is. I think it also serves multiple purposes to have everybody recite the same well-known prayer. In my son's troop, at the very end of the closing everybody forms their arms into a circle in front of them, bows their heads into the circle, and says the prayer. It requires everyone to do the same thing at the same time, it provides just a brief moment of quiet reflection, it shows reverence, and acknowledges the importance of the higher power both to the boy himself and to the Scouting program as a whole. It's like saying, "God bless our troop and all of us." What's wrong with that?

Having said all that, I am not suggesting that troops should not do what you are talking about. It seems to me that it would be appropriate in a troop where all the members see prayer as you do. But where you have members of many different religions and denominations, all of whom have their own traditions regarding prayer, it seems more likely that a simple recited acknowledgement of God will be more appropriate. Of course, on special occasions something more elaborate and "original" is fine, but in my experience, on those occasions the person giving the prayer is usually an ordained clergy-person, who (again, generally) will conform his words to the group he sees in front of him.

Based on the year, these would be the requirements under which I passed Second Class and First Class. Most of the requirements do have a ring of familiarity.

I find it interesting that they referred to the requirements as "tests," and I wonder when they stopped doing that. I suspect that the 1972-73 handbook, which changed "ranks" to "progress awards," and substituted "skill awards" for a unified list of requirements, did not use the word "tests." And although today we have "ranks" again and no "skill awards," I doubt that any subseqent handbooks have re-introduced references to "tests."

Rooster, what are some examples of things you think troops should be doing to "build character" that you do not think they are doing now?

Kwc,

I have no problem with the idea that the issue of alcoholic beverages vs. liquids that look somewhat like alcoholic beverages, but have other purposes, is one of a number of possible tools that can be used to teach and demonstrate the making of ethical choices. I would point out that the factual scenario that started off this thread is not an example of teaching ethical choices. Just the opposite. It seems that the Scoutmaster wasn't really sure whether the cooking sherry should be allowed on the trip, the campmaster was sure it should not be there, and all that happened was a big controversy. It does not sound like anyone learned anything from it -- other than, not to bring the cooking sherry next time. So even if, under other circumstances, someone could have learned something useful from this, it is pretty clear to me that under these circumstances, it would have been better for all concerned if the container in question had been a jar of Prego sauce (nothing wrong with Prego, by the way), instead of a bottle of cooking sherry.

Comments on a few of Rooster's observations:

Very few activities designed to bring families together (i.e., a pack picnic and softball game something along those lines).

This may be true for Boy Scout troops, I don't know. My son's troop (meaning he's a member) has had family picnics in past years, though this year they instead had a "family camping trip" including whitewater rafting. In reality it was not very different from a regular camping trip. However, when you say "pack," I would be surprised to learn that there are a lot of Cub Scout packs with no or few family-oriented activities. When my son was a Cub Scout, our pack (meaning we were both members)had a picnic every year and of course the Blue and Gold Dinner which was a family event, and really all monthly pack meetings are supposed to be family events as well. True, there are always some parents who drop the kid and go, but the pack leadership always encouraged them to stay and watch.

Many packs and troops open/close with a flag ceremony, which is fine But few open or close with a prayer.

When a prayer is offered, its very short and very generic, usually May the Great Scoutmaster be with you until we meet again variety.

This is true of my son's troop. The only prayer at the meeting is the last part of the closing, and it is indeed the "Scoutmaster's benediction." There are more elaborate invocations and benedictions at Eagle Courts of Honor (and I assume regular COH as well, though I have not been to one in this troop yet) either by the minister of the church that is the CO, or by the Eagle candidate's religious leader. These are usually somewhat generic as well. I think this is appropriate in a troop with a diverse religious population such as ours. Nobody feels "left out" with the Great Scoutmaster, whereas a more religiously specific prayer is going to leave someone out. When this has been discussed before in this forum, some have suggested "rotating" prayers, but in my opinion that means that everyone gets left out at one time or another. I think every troop needs to decide what it is comfortable with.

When our countrys history is discussed (which is rare), the focus is always on the event itself. Few boys ever discuss the philosophical thought or moral conviction that inspired or served as a catalyst for the said event.

If the event you are talking about is the American Revolution, I am not sure which thoughts and convictions you are referring to. Generally I think that people understand that the basic motivation was a desire of people to be free and to be in charge of their own destiny, and not live under a faraway ruler. I know that kids still learn this in school. I assume it is still part of the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge requirements, though I have not checked. If you are looking for something more elaborate and perhaps more historically accurate -- well, do you really want the Scouting program to include study of the intricacies of revolutionary philosophy? Or the theories of some historians that the Revolution was motivated more by economic interests than anything else? I don't know about that.

Many troops place a high emphasis on teaching leadership and camping skills, but character building seems to be taken for granted. All skills and competitions center on camping or leadership.

I think that all of the "aims" work together. I think that is how the whole Scouting program is designed, not so that you are doing character for this 30 minutes, fitness for the next 30 minutes and citizenship for the last 30, but that many activities involve some aspect of two or all three. Maybe we are viewing "character" differently. When a boy accomplishes something through his own knowledge and hard work, he is learning and practicing self-reliance, which builds character. When a boy combines his own knowledge and effort with those of others, he is learning and practicing all sorts of positive character traits, like cooperation, respect, teamwork. Leading, and following, build character as well. This is not the "Issues and Politics" board, but sometimes I think that some peoples' idea of "character" consists mostly of a list of "do's and don'ts," or more to the point, "don'ts." I think it is more than that, and Scouting activities by their nature build on that.

99% of skits are for fun a chance to be goofy. Rarely have I seen a skit written to provoke thought. Generally speaking, the leadership does not encourage a serious tone for anything but award ceremonies.

Your percentage is probably accurate. Most skits should be fun, that is their purpose. There wouldn't be anything wrong with asking that some fraction, say 10 percent, be thought provoking or inspiring in some way.

However, I do believe that more parents would embrace Scouting, if more packs/troops embraced the idea of character building as their primary goal.

It is a "co-primary" goal. If you really mean that it should be the primary goal, and build the program mostly around that, I am not sure that that is really Scouting. I think Scouting is a balance of the "aims." I also don't know how many parents would embrace. I really believe that the most important thing is that the boys embrace it, and the way to draw the boys in and keep them is, in the words of Baden-Powell (or at least I think that is who said it), "fun with a purpose." One without the other is not Scouting.