BartHumphries

Some of the things that immediately struck me as different from the previous standards:

Scouts can rappel on a single rope, with a fireman's belay.

Pretty much everyone who's anyone has to have attended National Camping School for their job or have "equivalent skills". However, this "equivalent skills" is a real grey area. In some cases, it just means that you had to have been a Scoutmaster, or even just earned a merit badge once upon a time in that area.

COPE/Climbing Directors are being grandfathered into the new system as the people that they were instructing (Level 2 instructors who only manage COPE or Climbing at a single camp). If you want to manage COPE/Climbing at multiple camps (such as both at a summer camp and at a camporee) then you need to be a COPE/Climbing Program Manager, which is going to necessitate yet another trip to National Camping School. Also, even though the only difference between COPE and Climbing once the transition to ACCT is complete is that COPE will have more training with fun games and Climbing will have more training with placing anchors in natural rock formations, and so the current COPE Director and the current Climbing Director at a camp will end up with the exact same ACCT level 2 instructor certification, apparently designing a program where someone is belayed up an element then lowered back down is different enough when that element is a wood pole (COPE course) than a flat board (climbing wall) that COPE/Climbing Program Manager are still completely separate five-day courses for a total of 10 days (instead of a single six or eight day or whatever course).

HS-03.A seems to say that every person must present their own medical form individually. In the past, a unit leader would generally come up with a stack of medical forms and a box/bag of medication (if any). I don't really see why each person needs to present their medical form themselves, most people who work at a Scout camp aren't trained to a high enough standard to be able to do anything other than take a physical at face value unless the person being checked in has a medical complaint -- without a complaint, they are technically not a patient and in some areas examining this person without then passing the person on to a higher medical authority could be considered patient abandonment, especially if that person is a youth who cannot make medical decisions for themselves. Yes, they aren't a patient without a complaint so how could it be considered patient abandonment, but that's a sticky point just between San Bernardino and Riverside counties out here -- I'm sure that other states in the US have different viewpoints on this. Suffice it to say, I would much rather get a stack of medical forms from a unit leader and discuss potential medical problem for each person in a unit with that unit leader than to have each person present a physical themselves. It's also going to make check-in take a whole lot longer.

HS-07 says that medication "administered" must be recorded in the First Aid Log book, which to me means that I'm only listing medication that I administer after calling the ambulance to come pick a person up, since (as an EMT) I have a short list of medication that I'm allowed to legally administer and I don't want to risk losing my license by making it appear that I have administered medication which I am not allowed to administer. Let me make it more clear -- when a person has Adderall locked up in the Health Lodge and they come get it, I am not administering that to them, I am simply the key holder. They are taking their own medication themselves. So, helping a person self-administer their EpiPen or aspirin for a heart attack would be listed in the First Aid Log book, but not a daily regimen of Wellbutrin or whatever for a person, as I do not administer those medications.

Because it's an adult going "You can survive a weekend (week) without your cell." Then the adult leader goes off and sits around with his cell?

I don't think that's hypocrisy. Youth Scouting members don't usually have to pay electricity bills, rent/mortgages, etc. Adults do. While Scout camp may be a fun vacation for the youth, not every adult has the luxury of being able to completely take a whole week off and be completely out of reach. A youth can survive for a week without chatting to friends and browsing websites just for fun. Adults tend to be using cell phones for more "legitimate" purposes.

On the flip side, if a youth was actually running a business or otherwise using a cell phone to stay in touch with clients, etc., I would have no problem with them running around Scout camp with a cell phone.

They are addressed in IOLS. IOLS is only a weekend, though, and some people are looking for a week-long outdoor skills session like the original Wood Badge.

That can't happen here now. Under the new standards it's mandatory to have a commissioner who's attended the commissioner section of National Camping School (or has "equivalent skills"). While the camp commissioner can be assigned other duties, meaning some other area director or someone can also be the commissioner, the camp director is not allowed to take on other duties. I guess, in the US, the camp director is not supposed to be easily accessible to campers.

I was at Philmont last week for a Wilderness First Aid Train the Trainer class. Every time I tried to connect, it said that the site was blocked. Well, it didn't say that so much as redirect to a cgi.block or whatever and say that the site was unavailable. Was that this site blocking the Philmont ID or was that Philmont blocking this site?(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)

I do believe the OP already answered those questions.

You know, I bet there'd be some interest in having various modules taught at Roundtable. I'll bring that up at my local Roundtable on the 6th. There wouldn't be any additional certification that people could earn, but people might be interested in getting more practice in knots, splicing, etc.

Let me preface this by saying that I was presuming that the Scout was really paying attention when he was doing the things required for his Arrow of Light, that he didn't just follow "Do Your Best", he actually did it and learned. So when the first aid requirements are looked at, it's not something new to the Scout. He knows how to perform hands-only CPR, he knows what to do if blood is spurting out of a person's arm because a ninja jumped out of the bushes and sliced a person up with a sword, and he knows how tight to make those bandages that he's wrapping around the arm over the pads. He knows how to tie a square knot and can probably do so with his eyes shut. He has no problems with two half hitches and a taut-line hitch (and consequently has no problem with a clove hitch, as it's just two half hitches tied around a pole instead of the rope). He knows the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. He knows all of these things and more before he ever even becomes a Scout. For this hypothetical Scout, a day-long T-1st lesson isn't so much about skills instruction as it is about doing a preliminary Scoutmaster Conference before the actual Scoutmaster Conference. By really learning these things when he earned his Arrow of Light, the new Scout isn't being taught so much as he's demonstrating that he already knows these things.

Now, think about it, how long does the average Scout actually spent on T-1st? In the average program that I'm familiar with, T-1st is a year-long program. Scouts meet once a week for a little over an hour, with perhaps 15 minutes of each meeting devoted to skills instruction.

Preopening game: 20 minutes

The meeting starts now

Opening: 5 minutes

Skills Instruction: 15 minutes

Patrol Meetings: 20 minutes

Interpatrol Activity: 25 minutes

Closing: 5 minutes

More or less standard, right? Some troops are more or less, of course. Let's say that the Scout misses a few weeks during the year for holidays, courts of honor, and summer camp. 45 weeks at 15 minutes a day is 11.25 hours. That's a really long day, especially when the only really "new" things, the things that he's actually being instructed in, are probably all the 1st-Class cooking requirements.

But it doesn't stop after a day. 1st Class requires 10 separate activities, in addition to regular troop meetings, three of which require camping overnight. I would presume that a boy in this position wouldn't be passively going on activities but would be tapped to be in charge of at least some of these activities (depending on his POR). He's going to be getting much more time to practice his skills and when the rest of the troop goes through their skills instruction he's likely going to be tapped to teach and we all agree that a person gets more out of preparing to teach than they do by learning.

NCS training actually seems to be fairly uncommon among adults, which is why I posted it here; I thought most people wouldn't know about it.

I think a large part of breezing through Tenderfoot through First Class is really paying attention and learning as a Webelos.

If you've never known how to tie knots, then it's going to take a few hours to tie the required knots. If you really learned in your Outdoorsman activity badge (required for the Arrow of Light), then you know how to tie a square knot, two half hitches and a taut-line hitch. You're halfway through the knot requirements. If you remember everything from this, then you're probably also on the cusp of the Firem'n Chit, so you'll meet the fire building requirements as well.

If First Aid is new to you, then that's going to take a while as well. But if you really paid attention during your Readyman activity badge (also required for the Arrow of Light), then you're going to breeze through all the first aid requirements.

If you paid attention from at least Bear through Webelos, then you had knife safety (Whittling Chip) over and over and over. If you remember it all, then you'll know all about a safety circle and how to sharpen a knife, and it really won't be much at all to add in axe and saw, so those requirements will be out of the way fairly swiftly as well.

Basically, if you really earned your Arrow of Light, it wouldn't be that difficult to breeze through Tenderfoot through First Class in a good long day, except for the "earn a sum of money agreed upon by your parents and save half of it" and "test yourself in these physical things, make a fitness plan, then retest in a month and show progress made" and the inviting people to Scouts, showing Scout spirit, and probably one or two others that I'm forgetting now.

At that point, it's just merit badges and POR's, so it all depends on how well the kid can understand and how well it's explained. When my niece was five-years old, for instance, she could explain why light diffracts, how that creates colors, and how wavelength and frequency are related, because I'd explained it to her with simple concepts -- it's going to take longer for an ant to push through the hair on my arm than to be dropped on my arm from the same distance, white light is made of all the colors, light travels in waves, different colors of light travel in stronger slower wave or weaker faster waves, etc.

Great! He sounds like he's on his way now to the National Medal for Outdoor Achievement, which requires 125 days/nights of camping (amongst numerous other things), so keep on tracking/recording all the camping he does for the next few years until he's earned it.

Then there's the Hornaday Award, the STEM Supernova award, the youth religious award, not to mention palms. In a couple years he should join Venturing and start going for his Venturing silver, Ranger, TRUST, Quest, then join Sea Scouts, earn his Quartermaster and do SEAL training. Don't forget NYTL, the Order of the Arrow, etc.

Also, one last very important thing. Your location says that you live in California too. At 15 1/2 years old, he should go get his driver's permit. Sign him up for a driver's ed class at this time (not the high school class, an actual behind the wheel driving class). Then, at 16 he'll be able to go get his license. Getting your eagle before you turn 13 means you're incredibly busy and if he keeps that up, then there's going to be a lot of driving involved. You don't want to be responsible for that. During that first year, until he turns 17, if he's going to be out past 11:00pm, you still have to drive him if he's going to be close or if he's far enough away ("reasonable transportation is not available") then he needs a pre-signed note from you saying what he's doing, when he'll be back home, and listing the dates that he'll be doing that on.

Also, as soon as he turns 14 send him to work summer camp, so that he can get paid when he comes back the next summer at 15, so that he can pay for the insurance hike when he gets added to the insurance, and the gas that will be required to take him to activities (and the gas when he starts driving himself at 15 1/2).

As much as people complain here, it's not "official" complaining unless the material has actually been returned to a Scout Shop.

It seems like NCS for Outdoor Skills Director is what you want -- a week-long outdoor-skills emphasizing program that is roughly local to you*. It's just the cost that you disagree with. Personally, I also disagree with that.

*once a year (maybe twice) it's roughly local, although Wood Badge is also generally only local once or maybe twice a year

NCS Outdoor Skills Lesson Plan Resource Manual:

*Section Interviews

Participant's interview sheet, asking what you expect to learn, etc.; personal resource questionnaire; outdoor skills questionnaire, a checklist asking what you've taught, what you have knowledge of and what you need help with.

*The Role of the Outdoor Skills Director

Camping, cooking, first aid, hiking, orienteering, pioneering, woods tools skills -- basically, what rank, merit badge, or award corresponds with everything taught

*Outdoor Skills and Teaching Methods

Effective learning process

*Principles of Leave No Trace

*Pioneering

About rope, learn to tie knots, constructing a catapult, pioneering projects, make your own camp furniture

*Fire Building

*Utensil-less and aluminum foil cooking

Backwoods cooking, recipes for utensil-less cooking

*Cooking and Baking

Solar hot dog cooker, temperature chart, pastry

*Campsite Selection

*Backpacking and Equipment

*Backpacking Preparation

Outdoor camp activities, outdoor projects, trail food, packing in, your clothing is key to winter comfort, versatile tarp shelter

*Orientation to basic first aid

*Orienteering

*Food storage and sanitation in camp

*Fishing

*Woods Tools

Care of the ax, whistles

*First-Time Camp Program

*Staff Training

*Cooking fish and food

*The Role of Aquatics in the Camp Program

"It doesn't appear as though National Camp School teaches the outdoors skills that leaders need."

They do. Outdoor Skills Director.

One person said, It's not like Camp School has a curriculum titled "Scout Skills"...

Another said, I don't even think that they have a training curricukum for them.

Have you been listening to what I said, it's Outdoor Skills Director. There's a 20-minute online NCS training bit for "Scoutcraft" while the week-long training is for Outdoor Skills Director. Tell you what, on Monday I'll post the syllabus from the class.

When I access this site on my phone, every page throws up a, "Data connectivity problem; 400 Bad Request".

Yes, and to some it is a moral issue. I believe the point is that there could be a monetary issue for those who don't see it as a moral issue.

Sorry typed on phone

Edit: corrected spelling from the phone(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)

What were the outdoors skills that old Wood Badge taught? What're you looking for?

In another thread, someone said something like (and I'm paraphrasing here), "I wish there was a week-long outdoorsman type program that actually taught everything that Wood Badge used to teach because that's not what they teach now. I said, "There is, it's National Camping School for Outdoor Skills Directors." Then I was asked how much it cost and I thought I'd just spin off a new thread on the topic.

So, National Camping School is found at http://www.ncsbsa.org/ They apparently don't have the 2013 dates up yet, but you can look at the 2012 brochure at https://www.ncsbsa.org/resources/ncs/2012%20NCS%20Brochure.pdf and the 2013 dates will be fairly similar. NCS is generally for people who work at Council-run camps and is designed to be the training level that's above what the Council offers.

For instance, take Climbing. Council training produces Instructors who can teach merit badges, take kids climbing, etc. For a unit to go rock climbing, they need to have at least two Climbing Instructors with them. At the NCS level you have Climbing Directors who can train/certify Instructors. The Council Climbing/COPE committees (which may be the same committee or separate) which oversee all climbing and/or COPE activity in the council has to have an NCS Climbing or COPE Director as the committee chair. The names of these positions are going to change next year, though, as the BSA transitions to ACCT standards for Climbing/COPE.

Most NCS weeks start at about $500 and you can't go without the permission of your Council. Councils sometimes pay for their summer camp area directors, program and camp managers to go. Typically, you just have to go talk to whoever is in charge of the camp(s) for your Council and ask for their permission to go, and if you tell them that you want to pay your own way then they're usually more than happy to send you. In the past, some Councils have sort of run it with an iron fist, saying that only people who are definitely going to work at a summer camp are allowed to go, but National has said to loosen up more, so that there are more trained people to potentially call on in the Councils. Some sections, like Aquatics, COPE, and Climbing, do have prerequisites that you have to meet first and Shooting Sports can change since most camps don't offer pistol instructor certification but there are some camps where you go for an extra day or so to get that.

Even if the Methodists don't leave, that's still over a quarter of registered Scouts over the whole US if the LDS and Catholic units close up shop, and well over half of all Scouts in the Western region. Some of the boys might go find another troop somewhere, but most parents just go with the easy youth organization that's offered and most kids just go where their parents send them.

You can still go spend a week learning to be an outdoorsman, cooking your own food in an outpost camp, ropes, knots, splicing, totin' chip, all that fun stuff, the works. It's called National Camping School for Outdoor Skills Director.

"Why then does it not work the same way for society?"

Free will. People are free to do their own crazy thing (and they do) while "natural" objects follow set natural laws. It's not rocket science.

That would explain why I've never received any alumni items.

I actually think the website just isn't equipped to handle people who are already registered as volunteer Scouters and who already have a website profile but who then sign up as alumni. If I click the login heart-link in the alumni area after logging in with the website in general, it takes me straight to the "Thank You" page. Either that or I signed up before they got the form working that asks for payment information, back when the alumni section was first introduced, and slipped through a loophole. I honestly don't remember, but I know I didn't pay any additional money and it sure acts like I've logged in to the alumni bit when I log in to the website in general.

"I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men, with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. That is the point at which the negation of Catholicism and the negation of Liberalism meet and keep high festival, and the end learns to justify the means."

I think that there have been more self-professed religiously-minded bad men throughout history than there have been atheists, simply because most people are religious. I do think that a strongly-atheistic mindset does tend to lead to looser morals in general as the experiments with Princess Alice have shown: http://bathspa.academia.edu/GordonIngram/Papers/496704/ That's not to say that people who are atheists are all bad people, though, just that it's human nature to drive differently on the freeway when you spot a police patrol car a little ways behind you.

ATV's fit with LNT -- the most important thing is that you must wait at least two full days after it rains before you can hit the trails again, or your tires are just going to rip the dirt road up.

Well, you're not going to be able to earn the award without working at least a little bit with your local council alumni committee, so contact your council, ask who's on the committee and how you'd talk with them, and how you can join. Then you're going to have to serve on that committee for one year.

While you wait to get on the committee, with the permission of the committee chair and the Council Executive, you'll also have to do the following:

-If you're not already a registered Scouter, pay $35 to become a registered alumni.

-If you're an Eagle Scout, become a member of the National Eagle Scout Association and register on the NESA web site.

-Visit the Alumni Connection web site and complete the alumni scavenger hunt.

-Become an Alumni Ambassador by successfully completing the online alumni volunteer training.

-Upload two of your own Scouting-related photos to the BSA Alumni Scrapbook section of the BSA Alumni web site.

-Share your favorite Scouting memory through the Rekindle Memories section of the alumni web site and send an ecard to at least five unregistered alumni. Write down who these five people are, because you're going to have to do more with your five unregistered former Scouts/Scouters (and you'll also need three more, but I digress).

Now that you're on the committee:

-Assist in planning an alumni activity at the district, council, or community level (could also be regional/national, but honestly how many of us will that apply to).

-Grab those five people that you sent an e-card to, engage them in a serious discussion about the Scouting program, provide them each with an Alumni Connection card and follow-up to see if they have visited the web site.

-Obtain at least two scout profiles or stories (get two of them to tell you a story about when they were a scout), use them in local council alumni promotion and forward a copy of the profiles/stories to the national alumni office.

And finally the salesmanship part (this will require you finding even more alumni, as it'll take at least eight people to do the following, since they all have to be different people):

-Two people must attend a "big" Scout activity (any activity, anywhere, as long as it's more than just your unit)

-Two people must volunteer at a "big" Scout activity (any activity, anywhere, as long as it's more than just your unit).

-Two people must become registered members of the BSA.

-Two people must give Friends of Scouting gifts (after you personally asked them to).

See the requirements at http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Alumni_Award or http://www.scouting.org/Alumni/Association.aspx(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)