Narraticong

So, I live a couple block away from the huge, multi-billion dollar General Motors Technical Center. It's a cool place where all the design work takes place. While I don't work in the auto industry, most of my friends and fellow Scout Leaders do. Some of them are already out of work.

I am not generally in favor of government interference in any private industry. But several things need to be considered. We allow foreign automakers to flood our market with underpriced vehicles with no tariffs attached. At the same time, those countries place severe restrictions on vehicles being imported into their countries. Compare environmental, health and safety requirements in America versus Japan or China. We do not have a level playing field.

We might consider trade restrictions on foreign autos and parts made anywhere but the USA. And that would include Big Three parts made in Mexico and Canada. Increased costs for US manufactirers might be offset by increased market share.

Another thing to consider. Think about the incredible damage done to the US Budget by our Congressman and Senators. How huge is our deficit? Why on earth are those people allowed to sit in judgement of how the auto industry should do business? Talk about the blind leading the blind!

No, this is a huge mess and I just don't have faith that anyone currently "in charge" really has the knowledge to fix it! But I'm confident that when the Obama Administration comes to town, all will be better.

These threads always give me a chuckle. To see how important they are, print one out and give it to a patrol of Scouts on your next campout. If they use it to light a fire, you have done a good job.

Scouting is a game for the boys. Think of Scouting as football. In it's simplest form, boys gather after school and play touch football. They all like to wear a jersey and pretend to be their favorite player. Beyond that, they are happy as can be wearing jeans and whatever sneakers are on their feet. Some of us old guys can remember having so much fun that we were late to dinner. What they now "play" in college and the NFL is more like business. Results are more important than experience.

It only seems to be the adults who lose sleep over having a perfect uniform. A uniform is not even required for a boy to be a Scout.Unless you want to have a really broad interpretation of "Scout Spirit", a uniform would not be required to earn Eagle.

Yes, I like to see my Scouts in a nice uniform with up to date badges. It's another sign they care about the program. But one of my best Scouts shows up every week in jeans and a uniform shirt that was probably used by several Scouts before him. But as soon as he earned First Class that badge was sewn on.

But lose sleep over a darn Jamboree patch? You gotta be kidding. Use the time you spend researching and calling National to find a new place for a hike.

IT'S A GAME. Nothing more, nothing less.

Scouts can be as exciting and fun for boys today as it ever was. Actually, I think my 50 year old memory only has room for the fun stuff from my youth. The boring stuff just doesn't fit in their anymore. I don't remember that learning to march like a soldier for the Memorial Day Parade was my idea of fun as a twelve year old boy.

The program is what you and your boys make it to be. Boys may be locked up inside with their video games today rather than out exploring. But for me, it's a wonderful gift to be the one who releases them to find all of the excitement to be found in the woods. I have nine of fifteen boys heading out for their first cold weather camping experience this weekend. They are all excited to be going. Nobody asked whether their Nintendo batteries would freeze overnight. Instead, they planned their 5 mile hike.

We all have choices. Mine is to believe that Scouting is still the best option out there for my son and all his friends. So, I will follow the GSS, and the current requirements. But I will keep everything written by Green Bar Bill close at hand.

I think it's starting to work. My 12 year old PL son told me the other day that "Outing is 3/4 of Scouting". Hmmmm, maybe he's got something.

jet526 has it right. I've been a Brother since 1972, but as a Scoutmaster my duty is to my troop. My role in OA at this point is to support and promote the Lodge. I make it a point to attend as many ceremonies as I can. I make a couple of weekends every year. I go to the annual Lodge Banquet.

Our young troop just had our first OA election. My own son was one of the three elected. While I am very proud and excited that I will be able to call him "Brother", I want his experience to be his own. If I go to his Ordeal Weekend, I'll make sure I am working away from his area. I'll be happy if I don't see him until he arrives at the fire.

I'd encourage every Scoutmaster who is given the opportunity to join to do just that. If you are nominated, it is because somebody believes you have something to offer. If the Scoutmaster wears a flap, the boys will understand there is something important about membership.

Yes, give the boys support in their OA activities, but try to keep hands off. You may see them playing cards at a chapter meeting sometimes. The question is whether they are also carrying out the purposes of the Order. If they generally are, then don't worry about the cards.

Some folks call playing cards "fellowship"!

A lot of what "Lem"'s earlier post says rings very true. For those of us who grew up in Scouting forty years ago, a lot of what we learn in training seems counterproductive to traditional Scouting.

As a Scoutmaster, I try to blend the two generations. There are lots of modern guidelines we agree to follow when we sign on as leaders. But there is still much wisdom and knowledge to be gained by reading and using one of the much older versions of the Scoutmasters Handbook, or Patrol Leaders Handbook.

I will always be convinced that Green Bar Bill Hillcourt had it just right. Find anything he wrote about Scouting and put whatever you can into your program. You will end up with a happy troop of Scouts who are truly being leaders.

"Scouts get enough school at school"

Thanks, Kudu for such wise words. As a Scoutmaster with only a year under my belt, I have luckily learned that lesson. I was lucky enough to have an old grizzled Scoutmaster give me some good advice when he found out I was starting a troop. He said "make it fun".

A simple concept, but one we adults tend to forget. Scouting is no more than a game for the boys. You're right that done correctly (tradionally) the boys learn citizenship within their own little republic (patrol and troop).

By decreasing the required merit badges for Eagle, we would in essence be lessening the importance of that badge. In turn, we would probably need to go back to having First Class be the most important rank. That would require doing away with "First Class / First Year", which would be just fine with me. Maybe require time in rank for Tenderfoot, Second and First Class. Really put more emphasis on mastering those skills rather than just learning them.

By putting emphasis back on First Class, we would automatically be putting the emphasis back on the outdoors...on the fun stuff. I can't see bringing back signalling, but maybe a bigger emphasis on compass, map and GPS use.

Boys love Scouts for the camping and being outdoors. I think we could really grow Scouting if we put the emphasis back there. Since the 1970's we have mistakenly tried to reach out to boys with programs that strayed away from the outdoors. We have lost boys to other interests continually. Why not put the focus back on the one thing we offer that nobody else does? I have rarely met a boy who did not absolutely love playing in the woods. Especially today when so many of us live in treeless suburbs.

Quit wasting money on Soccer Scouts and spend it on backpacks and tents. It's a program that worked in 1910 and I know it works 100 years later. The boys get it. We adults just think too much and try to micromanage.

Keep it outdoors. Keep it simple. Keep it fun.

Also try www.scoutbugle.com. I purchased a bugle from them for my son. He is a very good trumpet player, but I am not about to let him bring a very expensive instrument to camp. Through Scoutbugle I was able to purchase a very playable bugle for under $50.00. A top of the line instrument? No. But if it gets some dents or scratches from camp experience, so be it. You don't need to spend a bucket of bucks on a horn to play taps.

Well said, NeilLup!

Whatever strengthens the program needs to be considered. I am very conservative and believe the traditional methods of Scouting were, and remain, the best. In the 1970's many changes came about in our program. Nearly 40 years later, BSA still exists, but I think many of us question whether those changes strengthed us.

But if a change makes things better, then we darn well better consider it. Staying in one place for no reason other than tradition is a sure recipe for a slow death.

If an aged out Scout cared enough to show up in his old uniform, I'd gladly welcome him and sit him alongside all the other Scouts in attendance. And I might be smart enough to speak to him about updating it and adding an ASM patch!

I think it's important to remember that Scouting is a game. A game meant to be fun. My point is that as Gold Winger seems to be implying, the 18-21 year old is not really quite a man yet. In a lot of ways, he is still a boy.

I am not suggesting anyone break the rules, only that we consider whether it might make the program stronger by changing them. My sole focus in Scouting is to make the program fun for the boys. If you do that, you will surely achieve the goals intended.

BDPT00, it is certainly not an issue whether you are an Eagle or not. I'll share with you my reason for asking my question. My experience is that those of us who do wear the Eagle feel very strongly about it. We know how much it means to have that badge pinned on our chest. For that reason, I am sypathetic to letting those 18-21 year olds wear it until they really are recognized as "men". I was interested to see how many of my fellow Eagles feel the same.

As to why only the Eagle Badge? Simple. Those young men have reached the pinnacle of Scouting. They are a very small brotherhood who stand separate from all other Scouts and are "marked for life". Elite? Yes. Elitest? No.

Clearly the Constitution does not provide for health care for all. There is no such "right" in America. Should the people of a state decide to provide for that right, it is their own business.

That being said, health care costs are out of control. But I'm afraid nationalized health care is not the answer. I have yet to see a federal government run program which runs efficiently. The farther away from home something is run, the more folks who like to get a share of the pie.

I'm always more in favor of a program which lets the individual be responsible for his own welfare. I trust myself more than the government.

Health care is a tough one. I don't know what the correct answer is, but I am confident that nationalized, government managed is not the way to go.

Well, I guess it's a good thing I don't ride a motorcycle or like sports that much. I score pretty high on the other accounts.

But I am now reconsidering my NRA membership...

1. In favor

2. Eagle 1976

I don't think the discussion here is much about what the Insignia Guide says. I think it's more about what would we like to see change if we had the chance.

I think it might be an interesting study to ask the following:

1. Let us know if you would be in favor of an 18-21 Year old Adult Leader being allowed to wear his Eagle Badge (and only the Eagle Badge).

2. Are you an Eagle Scout.

I have a feeling how the survey might turn out, but let's see...

As a young Scout in the very early 1970's I lived less than a mile from National Headquarters in North Brunswick, N.J. Often our Patrol Meetings were held in the apartment of one of the members. More than once a nice old man from upstairs came down to see what we were up to. He never made a big deal of who he was. I knew he was "Green Bar Bill" and that he wrote a column for Boy's Life. But at that young age, I had no idea what an impact he had upon Scouting. All I knew was that he was a cool old guy who had some good ideas!

Nearly 40 years later I am Scoutmaster of a new troop. Most of what I share with our young Scout Leaders are the ideas from Bill Hillcourt. His name means nothing today to those boys. But at least a few times a month, I invoke his name in passing on suggestions on how they "might" want to do something.

I hope Scouting never loses touch with the gifts that "Green Bar Bill" gave us. He is a wonderful inspiration, even today.

Do the research on George Soros and you will see how one can be both a liberal elitist and a socialist. You had no problem questioning whether money spent on political matters would not have been better spent helping the poor. When I suggested Soros money might be better doing the same, you chose to dodge the question.

As to Biden, I have not "spun" any statement. Both he and Obama have made it clear they believe it is right to take money away from some and give it to others. This is a redistribution of wealth and is clearly socialist in nature. Personally I am a flat tax proponent. No deductions, no loopholes, everyone pays the same percentage. Our current tax system is socialistic. Obama just wants to make it more so. Not if I can help it.

We almost agree on the issue of churches and politics. Except many pastors are smart enough not to make "official" statements. But how many urban churches invited Republican candidates to address the congregation? Bill Clinton made great inroads in American cities by being welcomed to speak in churches.

As to you DanKroh, I don't know if you are a liberal elitist, but I think your ideas are clearly socialist. And that is fine. In America, you are entitled to your opinion and to persuade others to think likewise. I find it interesting that socialists in America shy away from labeling themselves as such. In other countries they have no problem.

I am not sure what you are disappointed about, but I hope you get over it.

Sorry DanKroh, I've been caught up in semantics. Perhaps you won't be offended (but then again, to use your phrase- too bad), if I "suggest" that the liberal elite such as George Soros should "redistribute their wealth" rather than spend their millions upon millions of dollars trying to take away my rights? Joe Biden tells us it's patriotic to redistribute the wealth. But his charitable donations are next to nothing.

Urban churches did not even pretend to dance around the issue of who to vote for. Maybe not so much money raised (although we might be surprised), but lots of political clout and votes garnered. Do you have an opinion there?

Socialism? If it walks like a duck...

LisaBob, it sounds like you are asking for Obama to be cut some slack for things that were caused before he came to office. Hmmmm, 9/11 was being planned while Bill Clinton was in office. While he was getting us involved in various hotspots around the world, Clinton was totally dismantling our military. First World Trade Center Attack took place on Clinton's watch.

Eight months after election the USA gets rocked by terrorism. No matter who was president, the road would be tough. Mistakes made? Certainly. Am I a Bush fan? No. But Obama wants to blame everything that happened during the past eight years on Bush. He and the Democratics choose to take no responsibility.

So, I'll cut him the same slack. As soon as he takes office, it's his game. He'll have a Democratic majority to work with and should get whateer he wants. Fix it now, or take the blame.

Last time I checked DanKroh, we (with the exception of President Obama) do not get to decide how people's wealth should be redistributed. If Mormons feel that their money is wisely spent with this proposition, that is their business. Have you done research to see how much they contribute to helping needy people? I have not, but my guess is that the amount is substantial. Conservative people tend to put their money where their mouth is. Case in point can be seen in the charitable giving of McCain/Palin versus Obama/Biden.

Challenge them on whether you think the proposition is right or wrong. But you have no right to challenge them on financially supporting what they believe to be right any more than you can tell them how much of their time they can give to the effort.

You have absolutely no right to tell another American how he should spend his legally earned dollars.

"That there's Socialism, right there..."

My Eagle COH took place after I was 18 years old. There was much hard work involved in getting there and a lot of Scouting fun. My personal opinion is that I look at 13 year old Eagles and wonder how much they have really gotten from the program. Sure, they earned the badges, but do they really have the Eagle Mindset? Doubtful at that age. But that is fodder for another thread...

In any case, I never really got to wear the award on my pocket. But I proudly wear the knot 32 years later. And every appropriate chance I get, I wear my Eagle Medal. Yes, I am proud of it. No,I don't do it to say to others "Hey, look at me!". But it is the greatest achievement in my life and it makes me feel good to acknowledge it.

Now, think back to those newly minted Eagles who at 18 never get to wear the patch. Sure the knot "means" the same. We adults understand that. But at 18 years old, there is still a lot of boy left in those young men. We treat OA members as youth until 21. Can we not also say it is OK for young men to wear the Eagle Badge (and only the Eagle badge) until they are 21. I can't imagine what it could possibly harm.

I would be strongly in favor of changing uniform policy to accomodate this. And if I saw a young man under 21 still wearing his Eagle? I would give him a firm left hand shake and say "Job well done"!

As a non-Mormon Christian, my beliefs differ greatly from theirs. For a long time I gravitated between being a "slam the door in their face Chrisitian", and being an "argue how wrong they are until the cows come home Christian". I have since become a "No thank you, but have a nice day" Christian.

My beliefs have not changed, but actually strengthened. While I have doubts that their beliefs will get them into Heaven, I admire their dedication to their faith. If more Christian young men were out spreading the true Gospel, we could fill Heaven with Believers!

I will on occaision spend some time chatting with the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who show up at my door. It's a great opportunity to lead them toward Christianity. I think most people won't take the time to do this because they are actually weak believers.

Many folks spend little time in church or studying the Word, but are quick to call themselves Christians. They staunchly defend their "faith". They fear other religions, but really don't know much about their own. As your own Faith grows, you learn there is little to fear about other religions.

Indeed, I would rather stand beside someone with a strong faith which is different than mine, than someone who poses as a Chrisitan. At least the non-Christian stands for something! I can respect and tolerate that difference. From a Scouting standpoint, I need to know my fellow Scouters are "good people" and have faith in a Creator. That differs from my personal religious viewpoint that being a "good person" gets you "zip", "zero", "nada", "nothing", in terms of getting into Heaven.

Mormons, Hindus, Jews, whatever, are all welcome into Scouts!

NO, absolutely not! Scouting is not all about fire and sharp instruments.

The GSS (Guide for Silly Scouts) clearly states that all outings must include fire, sharp instruments, and FAKE DOG POOP!

Thanks Evmori-

It makes me happy to know I am not the only 12 year old here!

I can't believe the name of a dog breed got "beeped" out! That's much funnier than the lame joke I was trying to make! I guess it's good I didn't mention **** ake mushrooms.

Might be able to find it at ScoutStuff.org. I remember back in my days as a Scout it was made in America by Boston Bull Terriers. The last time I bought fake dog poop, it was made in China by **** zu puppies. What's the world coming to?

Well, Trevorum, I don't know who you are quoting, but I believe you have summed up what I said earlier. From reading some of your prior posts, I suspect we rarely agree. I have a feeling I might be surprised when you reveal the author. But please do...