Mike Long

Eagle must always be a symbol of excellence.

Those who wear the badge carry the honor of all their brother Eagles on their shoulders. If they fall and sully that honor we are all diminished. Those who wear the badge and do not fully embrace the obligation of what it is to be Eagle diminish us. I will never sully the honor of my brother Eagles, and I expect my brother Eagles to let me know when I let them down so that I can correct myself.

I'm with OldGreyEagle.

BTW as for the insulting label of "homophobe" (among other) being tossed around I sugggest that those who wish to cast aspersions of others character (on both sides of the argument) Re-read the The Scout Law. Hmmmm...yep, it's still there...A SCOUT IS COURTEOUS.

I think the issue can be discussed with civility if we keep our heads about us and remember that which is our purpose.

Play nice.

Friends, when you see messages like the one posted by "Stormfront" please contact the moderator immediately. Content such as that needs to be removed like the cancer that it is. I have already contacted the moderator and it has been removed. This requires all of our efforts.

Thank you.

These guys have a great page of information on international scouting.

http://www.msu.edu/~rasche/scout/trp180/intergd.htm

I agree with OldGreyEagle. Philmont is a great trip but it is not the be all end all of high adventure, it's just one of the few trips that comes with its own patch. Our troop puts on its own high adventure programs and the boys love them. As a point of interest, one of our boys went to Philmont last summer and when asked about how it compared to our own trips he replied that he loved it, but he said that our Smoky mountain 50-miler was more challenging and a lot cheaper ($1000 for Philmont versus $70 for the Smokies).

As for stories of favoritism in the phone lottery, I have never heard of such a thing. I do understand your frustration, we could not get a slot either but our solution was to call the council and apply for a crew full of slots for youth and adults. Hopefully we can go as a troop that way. Good Luck.

Sweet. Glad to help.

I'm in NORTH Florida, Atlantic Beach to be exact which is part of Jacksonville.

Ya know, it would be cool if we could get Troops to come together and host each other at campouts in each others area. It would be a great exchange of experiences especially for boys that don't get to travel much. Sounds like a post for a new forum. BTW, where are you?

I'm not a fan of chemical methods of fire starting. To me they are way too unpridictable. Here's an idea that might do the trick though and be a lot safer. Get some super fine steel wool, a length of speaker wire and a battery (a 9-volt works well) All you have to do is connect the posts of the battery with the steel wool and the steel wool will ignite. I would build a "nest" of steel wool in the firelay, connect the speaker wire to the wool and bury the wire underground and run it out "backstage". At the appropriate moment an assistant could connect the wires to the post on the battery and presto, the steel wool will burst into flame. I have used this method with great results at Courts of Honor. Good luck.

Found it! Just keep reading.

The original book on Scouting was called "Scouting for Boys" and was originally published in installments in 1908. This is an excellent site with loads of info about BP

http://www.pinetreeweb.com/B-P.htm

These guys have a pretty good bookstore of scout stuff and a link to a 1992 reprint of Scouting for Boys by BP. They link you to the product page at Amazon.com, who'd a thunk!

http://www.1earth.com.au/militaria/b/scouts.html

Seek and ye shall find.

It can be found here.

http://www.scouter.com/Archives/Scouts-L/200006/1119.asp

I am not familiar with the term guidon but I do know that military units for a very long time carried smaller versions of their flags in the field.

It sounds great to me, our guys carry a small US flag when we hike and it sounds really cool to me to have a small troop flag too. Wow, now that I am really thinking about it, why not get scout staves to use as walking sticks and get each boy to carry a short section of lashing rope and when you get to your destination erect a flagpole (conditions permitting) using both? Talk about old school scouting! Go for it!

Way to go! Good luck with it all.

I did some research and found a pile of custom flag and banner shops all over the place, but no "official" BSA cotton flags. My best suggestion is that if you want a really special flag hire a custom flag shop and have one made. As far as if you are "allowed" to do so, I am not aware of anything that says it must be "official." Actually, when I judge Troops at local camporees, I would give you extra points for having a "special" flag. Just do a search using the phrase Custom Flags. If you don't get many hits look at my topic regarding finding stuff on the net. Good luck, I might just look into doing the same thing!

DON'T GET RID OF THE FLAG!!!

Take your old flag and have it mounted and framed and hang it on the wall at your meeting hall. Don't "clean it up" either. All those stains and tears are badges of honor and should be preserved. You ought to find someone skilled at preserving old cloth items and get some suggestions so that Scouts 30+ years from now can enjoy it. Your flag is part of your history, protect it.

The Soap trick works great, but here is some food for thought.

If you have a high adventure program that includes long distance hiking (50 milers+) You should leave the soot on the pot. The reason why is that the soot helps to trap heat. The end result is that your pot heats up quickly and stays hot longer due to trapped heat thus reducing cooking time. The bottom line is that you will use less fuel. This is a huge help if you are using backpacking stoves but no big deal if you are using campfires. The only bummer is you now have a dirty sooty pot to stuff in your pack, thank god for stuff sacks!

I see that that some of you are running out of luck in finding information on the web. I am a web developer and what we use is a search engine compiler called Copernic 2000. What is does is it searches used SEVERAL other engines and then compares the results. It can also verify all of the links so you won't waste time with busted links. I have found almost everything I need since I started using it, I strongly urge you folks to give it a go.

Yes this is a commercial product, and yes I understand that it is a BIG no-no to post what amounts to an ad here, but they have a free download version that does everything most of us need. If you want the whole shebang go for it, the freebie fills my needs perfectly.

It can be found at http://www.copernic.com/

Hope this helps.

I found this link for you. The file is a PDF so you will need to download the Adobe Acrobat reader to view it. (I believe that can be found at Adobe.com if you don't have it.) The link is at the bottom center of the page.

http://www.scoutlaw.com/cb/linkshome.html

Here ya go.

http://www.scouter.com/Archives/

Yep, inheirited problem kids before myself. That's a tough nut to crack, cause all he needs to do is swap troops till he finds someone willing to pass him to Eagle.

I have to say I always believed that the Conference was a pass or fail or at least a good point to stall a boy who needs a few "issues" resolved. After looking even more closely, I see that you are right. All is says is take part not get a reccomendation.

Did council give you any suggestions or was the response, in affect, "pass him on?" I guess you would have to raise your concerns with his review board (in writing) and let them come to a conclusion. At least that way it is obvious that the boy is being reviewed without Scoutmaster approval. Once again, I'm not sure that that method would meet with council approval.

In my personal opinion the spirit of the Scout Oath and Law clearly states that a boy that shows the behaviour and attitude that you describe is not ready to be an Eagle. I also think that as a Scoutmaster, at his Scoutmaster Conference, I would have to tell the boy that his behaviour was unacceptable, lay out a plan to correct the problem areas, and state in no uncertain terms that he is not ready to hold the honor of all Eagles on his back and does not my recomendation to a review board to be an Eagle until the problem areas are resolved in good faith.

I think the bottom line from what you have told us is that you have to send him to a review board by the rules of the BSA, but I would not do so before I voiced my objections to the Scout and the Review Board.

Good Luck, don't know if I helped or not.

I agree, give the kid what he rightfully earned.

In respose to Kevieemeal

As to point 2. Perhaps I did not explain myself very well on this point. All Scout functions REQUIRE the 2-deep method, this includes working on merit badges in my eyes. What I object to is one-on-one Parent-Scout advancement. Yes Parent-child bonding is a major aspect of Scouting, at no point did I state that it was not, but it must be done 2-deep. I also stated that if the only counselor available was a parent it would stand to reason that the parent needs to be the counselor. My position on this subject is very simple. By having a non-parent sign off or check the work, or at least a witness (2-deep or more) working together on the badge ect., the parent is absolved of any accusation of wrongdoing. I had SEVERAL situations a few years ago of parents signing off requirements that boys OBVIOUSLY didn't earn. It was a mess and it got very personal and Un-Scout like. By instituting this policy the problem has disapeared. Unfortunately I hold this view because I have seen the worst happen many times. The few bad apples spoil the basket.

As to 3. Once again, I'm not sure I explained myself very well. I was speaking of the project from initial concept to completion. The Physical part of a project is not the be all end all. The project in TOTALITY- all the planning, discussing, arranging, phone calls, delegating, ect. is ALL part of the project. The physical part of the project is a mere fraction of all the real work. Sure the physical part of your project took a Saturday, so what? Add in all the "pre-jobsite" hours and what do you get? As a matter of fact the physical part of a project is the least important part. The most important part of an Eagle project in my eyes is challenge. All the things that a boy has learned in Scouts is tested and challenged in the context of a project. Think about it, everything you learned was or should have been tested by your project. My problem is projects that are started and finished, from concept to completion, in a matter of days. I just don't see the challenge, unless it's a race against time. The bottom line is the project must be a real challenge to the Scout's abilities, and as long as the Scout meets the challenge, its a good project. Obviously, your project challenged you.

What really gets me riled up is that I have seen several instances of abuse on the trail to Eagle and I see a need to strongly encourage high standards and methods that protect Scouts and thier parents from allegations of abuse. What distresses me most is that I'm not an "old-timer" that has seen this over the course of a lifetime, I'm only 29! My father was my Scoutmaster and my Mom signed of some of my merit badges and we had the allegation cast on us too, even after a 3000 man-hour project, and I felt that they were the hardest counselors I ever had! The slightest allegation tarnishes a Scout's achievement. The problem is that blanket policies and grand proclamations don't cover all scenarios and frankly, strangle some Scouts. I believe that it goes without saying that Scouting is a case by case basis and what we do should be tailored to fit each case with the highest of standards in mind.

So to you Kevieemeal I personally apologize for tarnishing your achievement by my poorly thought out response.

I agree, this is your last chance to straighten this boy out. Stan raised an interesting point that seems to show up far too often in these discussions. How did this boy get this far and still be unfit? Is this something new? If not, the time to address the problem is when it first showed up, not at a review or a conference, at the EXACT moment you notice it or when it is brought to your attention. If it is, you need to find out what has caused this change.

I view the Scoutmaster Conference as our time to explore the boy's character. The badges and other requirements measure concrete and quantifiable achievement. Character and the contents of a boys heart and mind can not be measured like the budget requirement for personal management. Yet like the "concrete" requirements a Scoutmaster Conference must be passed. By signing off the Scoutmaster Conference you in effect state "I think that this boy:

1-Has completed all physical requirements in good faith.

2-Is mature enough to accept the resposibilities of the next rank.

3-His character reflects that he intends to live his life by the Scout Oath and Law to the best of his ability.

If you are not satisfied that ALL THREE are met, then you must give the boy a means to achieve all three, and not recommend that he recieve a board of review until he has.

My best suggestions-

1. Talk to the boys parents, tell them what you think.

2. Document all of your reasons with specific examples IN WRITING.

3. Ask the boy does he think that he is ready after you spell out all your issues. If so, why.

If not, what does he think he can do to mend his ways.

4. Together, the both of you come up with a plan to help the boy improve his outlook.

5. Set up a hard date to have another Scoutmaster Conference and discuss his progress.

6. Be prepared to explain yourself to the Troop Committee, Troop Parents, and the boy's parents.

7. (This probably outght to be number one)Meet with the Troop Committe and discuss the problem and get their support or at least come to an understanding of what the Troops position will be in these matters.

Bottom line: You are going to have a big mess on your hands if you are not very careful how you handle this. I went through this myself when I was the Advancement Chairman and turned down three boys on Board of Review night. Two of them are now model Scouts, the third went to another troop and was literally handed his Eagle. The upside is that after that night every boy in the Troop realized that Eagle was HARD and that I would not make it easy or hand it to them, so now they all work harder than before. I have found that children rise (or drop) to meet your expectations. Expect great things, be happy with good things.

Here you go.

This is a small one

http://www.isd.net/stobin/document2/PatrolBox.html

This one has legs.

http://home.epix.net/~hawkmtn/jambpb.html

Hatchet throwing: I did it at the '85 National Jamboree and I thought it was very cool. The only hatchet that should be allowed to be thrown is won specifically designed to be thrown. You can throw cutting hatchets but it doesn't work very good and the kids would probably find it frusrating. One designed for wood cutting and one designed for throwing are two completely different animals. Just get a few for camp use. The last thing you want to do is make kids think you can throw any hatchet.

Bikes on trails: My guys love it. Bikes destroy trails so be sure that your program STRONGLY stresses low impact trail riding and to ride on apprpriate trails. Also the faster they ride the more severe the injury. I would look real hard at insurance on that one.

Both would be good additions, you just need to do a lot of research.

The Honor of all Eagles is being cheapened, not just by "paper Eagles" but by the BSA itself. The BSA has made requirements easier over the years, especially after the passing of my personal hero Green Bar Bill. As a matter of fact many district and council level scouters have on NUMEROUS occasions urged myself and other Scoutmasters publically to push boys to become Eagle by 13. So if you shake your head and wonder why there are so many boys with Eagle patches who aren't quite qualified to be Eagles the answer is because the BSA wants it that way. I earned my Eagle at 16 and it was a fight, I could not have earned Eagle any sooner. The BSA trys to create Eagles by 13 because of the attrition rate of boys over 13. The myth of "Perfume and Gasoline Syndrome" strikes again. Many operate from the "conventional wisdom" that boys WILL loose interest by middle school. That is why the BSA started the Venture program, to get older kids who are bored with their troop to stay on BSA enrollment logs. To make matters worse in an issue of Scouter I read that the Ranger award for Venture Scouts was designed to be harder than Eagle! Incredible! How dare they attempt to cheapen Eagle by creating a no-name award that no one cares about! It makes more sense to stregthen the Eagle, the symbol of the best of American youth for over 90 years than to replace it. The reason why older boys leave scouts is because the Troop does not do difficult trips and does not challenge their abilities. Older boys are supposed to be the leaders and to train younger Scouts. There is no reason why a troop can't put together 2 high adventure trips a year for the older boys. No only does it keep them involved, it gives the younger Scouts something to shoot for. but I digress...

Some suggestions to stop the creation of instant Eagles.

1. Evaluate leadership performance. Do not allow a boy to wear a leadership patch on his arm and call it good enough. Require the boy to give an accounting of what he did, what his duties were and how he carried them out. Ask him what the best and worst things were about his tenure and what he could do to improve his performance. In the real world we are all judged by our performance, it would be tragic for a boy to later "discover" that poor performance equals termination. If his performance is deemed to be inadequate, give the Scout a chance to prove himself.

2. Parents can sign off nothing for their own child. They may review and coach only. GEt the Scout to find a counselor like Popcorn suggested. If the parent is the only MB Counselor you have access to then get another parent to double check the scout on his work.

3. Require Eagle projects that truly challenge the Scout. Look at the service project requirements for Star and Life, both can be completed on a Saturday. Chances are that an Eagle Scout Project than can be completed in two weekends is not adequate. Painting a park bench on a Saturday is not a challenge for ANY Scout's abilities. Have your Eagle candidates approach the project as if he were a business. Research the project and produce a report. Have him: find out what it would cost to be professionally done, What materials and skills will be needed, how many people it will take, roughly how long will it take, how will he get his workers to the job site, will he feed his workers, set up time for the press to come out and report on the project, will there be an unveiling/opening day? By researching ALL aspects of the project our Scouts will be better prepared for the working world.

4. Older Scouts plan their own trips and work with an adult on arranging the logistics. My high adventure progrm is planned by the older boys, they tell me were they want to go, for how long, how we get there, what we do there, and what we will need when we are there. It is a incredibly liberating experience for older boys to truly run a trip.

5. Get your older boys to get involved with your cub pack. We have two den Chiefs and set aside two trips a year that we host the cubs and put on mini camporees just for them. Let you Eagle candidate be in charge of that.

The only way to cultivate maturity is to insist on responsibility. All you need to do is to discuss the problem openly and honestly with your committee, write up a set of guidelines and enforce them fairly. You can challenge your Scouts abilities and get them to demonstrate that he can put into practice all the badges he earned.

I completely disagree with age requirements for ranks, maturity is not a measure of age. It is a measure of experience. I have sat on Eagle boards of 18 year olds and wondered "Who passed this kid?" and proudly approved others that I was shocked to find out were 13. We should not limit to true achievers because of the paper candidate. Yes, those with age usually have more experience but not necessarily more maturity. If we challenge boys and get them to reach outside of their experience and teach them to always do more than what is required we will have create an Eagle. It is possible to become an Eagle "by the letter of the law" but it is our job as Scouters to create Eagles by the spirit of the law.

I'm sorry if my comments aboout the BSA upset anyone. I still believe in and support the BSA. But I still belive that we need to reinstate the older difficult requirements and make Eagle THE lofty goal for Scouts.

You have two choices if even your local Council won't get involved. Start screaming at the national level and get some people removed from Scouting PERMANENTLY or find another unit (or start a new one)and take all the people that have a problem with the Scoutmaster with you.

Personally I implore you to do what you can to get those people removed from Scouting. We don't need or want them counted as Scouts, Scouting has enough problems without being torn up from within.

My best suggestion would be to check military surplus stores. You can get a lot of new and used stuff at some of them. The Scout catalog used to carry an official red scout beret with the scout logo, but I do not know if it is still offered.

As a brief aside; When I attended the National Jamboree in '85, I meet Some scouts that adopted Urban camoflage pants (black, grey and white) as part of thier troop's uniform. Boy did they look sharp. Don't think I want to look that military though. Anyway, at the time I was told that troops may adopt "Accessories" to add to their uniforms. Something to think about.