Mike Long

Maybe we should start a forum on the best excuses we've ever heard come out of a scout's mouth.

That one's pretty good.

That "under $100" two man Eureka tent in the Scout catalog looks very much like the Eureka dome 2XT that we bought at Campmor for about $70ish. That tent I would describe as adequate to good. My personal tents I like MUCH better.

As far as the leaky tent issue. Get some seam sealer, a sunny day, a bar-b-que and a bunch of scouts and have a seam sealing cook out on a Saturday. Be sure wipe the seam with alcohol and put on two thin coats of sealer.

As to the potential damage issue. We stensil our tents with the troop # and a "stock" #. Scouts check out tents from the quartermaster much like a public library. Scouts who damage a tent are required to fix it. (except in the case of an act of God. Had a few of those!) A scout who will not take care of a tent he broke loses the privilidge of using troop tents.

Our boys worked very hard to earn the money to buy those tents and when they see another scout mistreating the equipment they worked so hard to buy they strighten them out super quick.

Glad we were of help Kevin.

Somebody must have turned around the pulpit cause we are all preaching to the Choir!

I'll be the first to tell a boy he's reaching for too much in a project. If you are wondering, I built a 1.5 mile nature trail in a local city park and it took me 1 year. I now have 9 Life Scouts looking for projects. The problem is that a few of them took my example to heart and stated their intent to do massive projects like mine. I was extremely flattered but after a frank and open discussion of what it tanks to pull something that big off successfuly they all backed down to reasonable sized projects.

I do believe that all the planning and prep work that goes into a project is probably the most important aspect of an Eagle project. Anyone can do grunt work but the "pre-flight" is where the Scout realizes all the work that must be done in order to get anything done. All of them are amazed at the amount of work that goes on that they normally never see. Package that experience with good old fashioned dirty nail and blister work and the boy is well on his way to a bright future.

One thing that our committe asks each Scout of his project is "Do you believe that his project will truly challenge your abilities?" if the answer is yes then we ask "Exactly how will it challenge you and what do you hope to learn?"

If a Scout responds with a "No" to the first question the project needs to be reconsidered.

This I find very interesting and is a personal pet peeve of mine. When I worked on my Eagle project I was told I needed to hit 100 hours. My project was huge and almost overwhelmed me (3000 hours.) I finished it and then I met some Eagles that spent a Saturday painting two park benches in less time than was required for Star or Life. It really bugged me to know that there were Eagles out there who intend to do only just enough to squeak by and that there were Scouters that were Ok with this. I guess it's fine as long as the project truly challenges the Scout's abilities but I though we were supposed to be the achievers who aimed high.

We ask our Eagle candidates to approach the project as if it were a business and to consider all aspects of it in their report and proposal. The boys who have used this method all said they learned much more about the way things really work in the working world. Of course the only way to measure the time spent is in man-hours. Our boys tend to hit the 100+ mark too.

I wonder where these numbers come from? If everyone has a different number it would seem to indicate that each area creates its own standard and personally I don't think that's a good idea.

Environmentally friendly? Like how?

Certainly not because they are canister models.

Foot powder in small doses is good. But too heavy of an application will cause the powder to cake and then rub your feet raw. If you hike a trail that sees a lot of water (over the boot high) this will be a huge problem.

Foot powder is good to keep down moisture and should be in everyones gear kit but it is not an adequate treatment for blisters. If a Scout lets a blister get too far and uses foot powder and the powder gets in the wound it will most likely get infected.

Fear not, you are both right on.

Scouters (in my experience) should not "chase down" boys to sign off their books. But we should always make ourselves available to them. It is also important to ask the boys (especially the young ones) how they are doing, what are they working on, do they need any help, ect.

KL's announcement reminder is an excellent way of nudging boys forward.

In our troop we allow older scouts (Star, Life, Eagle) to initial other boys books who are working on Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, 1st Class but not Boy Scout. Boy Scout is handled exclusively by the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters. We want to be absolutely sure our new Scouts start out correctly without any confusion and to build a rapport with the Adult leadership.

The 30 hours that I stated as being the "magic number" for an Eagle project was given to me at a SMF class held by our council. Someone asked if there was a number that needed to be hit and the answer that came from those teaching the course (and several others in the crowd) was a resounding "30." Given who it came from and the matter-of-factness of the response led me to believe that it was a number mandated by the BSA itself. I think I need to find further verification on that one.

Our Troop buys our tents at Campmor. If you call them and speak to a customer rep you can buy gear for your troop at a discount with a troop check.(I think %10) but you have to ask for it!

You can contact them at Campmor.com. We bought 2 man Eureka tents for about $65-75 each. Campmor has a great selection of quality tents that won't bust the budget. Other suppliers might do the same you just need to ask. REI (REI.com)however does not have a discout system last I checked (June '00)

If you are the camping chairman simply tell them that big tents will not work at all with your outdoor program. You need to explain the use of the buddy system and how two Scouts should divide the weight between themselves and that a 4.5 to 6 pound tent is much easier to carry than a 9 to 12 pound monstrosity. You can't divide the weight of a huge tent fairly between boys, some poor kid is going to get the shaft.

You might want to do a graphic demonstration. Get a tent simliar in weight to what you want to get and get a one of those whopper family camping style tents. Load two similar packs with the gear that a Scout would normally carry on your typical trip. The only difference is that one pack has a real backpacking tent in it and one has the Scout-crusher tent. Let the committee members compare the weight of the two packs.

In my mind, if the committee trusts you to be responsable for your troop's camping program that trust should also extend to the selection of the gear needed to successfully carry out said program.

I would also suggest that you get your older Scouts involved in the selection process, and teach them how to shop. Have them set up a set of criteria to judge the gear against and do some research. The ability to compare differing products and come to an intellegent decision regarding cost versus features versus intended use is valuble skill that everyone needs to learn.

Good Luck.

Greg there is another forum here with a couple of mesages from two other folks with the same experiences as all the others posted.

I myself appear to be the only lucky one. I placed an order long ago and got everything I ordered in a timely manner.

However it deeply disturbs me to see a business that so strongly associates itself with Scouting essentially ripping people off. And yes I know what I am implying.

I placed an email to the moderator asking that the issue be resolved publicly but I have not recieved a response and I know for a fact the email did go through. I sure hope this is all resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

A patrol does get to keep the star patch forever and does not need to re-qualify. The star is only worn with the patrol patch of the patrol that earned it. If a scout changes patrols and the new patrol hasn't earned it, the star comes off.

The requirements have to be done in a certain time frame I belive that it's a three month period. I believe that a patrol can earn more than one star. (I'm not positive on that one)

My experiences with the BP Patrol Star were when I was a Scout, the regs. may have changed.

1. Yes, all play and no work makes spoiled little boys that grow up to be spoiled little boys.

2.The service requirements ARE defined as 6 hours for Star and 6 hours for Life and 30 for Eagle (as told to me by my district advancement chair and council advancement chair) Scouts may combine several smaller projects to total out to the 6 required for Star and the 6 for Life. However Scouts may not "Bank" hours. The 6 for Life must be completed as a Star Scout and the 6 for Star must be completed as a first Class. All service hours must be approved by the Scoutmaster.

3. That is up to the individual Troop and have never recieved any real answer from anyone "In the Know" Many Troops in my area do have such requirements. We ask for 75% participation. Be very careful with your policy. It is very easy to create a policy that intends to get nintendo junkies active that ends up punishing Scouts who just so happen to be very active at school and church. There are some very good Scouts who can't hit the "magic nuber" of events to be considered active because they are out being Very Good Scouts. If you do feel the need to implement a policy be sure that it addresses this.

4.Seeing as all requirements must be signed off and completed before the B.O.R. I think that it would be handled by the Scoutmaster or the adult the your Troop has to handle it. This does not mean that the BOR should not discuss his leadership experiences. I think they should, the experience give a great insight as to the Scouts personal growth. If a Scout can tell me the responsbilities of his position, what worked and what did not and come up with a plan to improve his shortcomings, he did the requirement sucessfully.

Most of my Bear country camping has been in the Smokies. There they have a cable suspension system to hang your food bags AND packs. We had one boy not hang his pack and a Black bear decided to use it as a saltlick. Took us three hours to find what was left of his pack. By the way, his food was in the pack too and was untouched. The bear just wanted salt.

I do however know of a friend who had a Bear-Bear canister close encounter and his canister won the match with only minor scuffing and scrapes. In some areas I hear that your group must prove that you have the canisters in order to get a permit to camp.

Just so you know, It does rain alot here in northeast Fl. My other favorite backpacking destination, the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, happens to be the wettest place in the East. I've been on a few week longs when the only time we saw the sun was on the road back home. I tell my Scouts that you are a truly accomplished camper when you can go out in conditions like that and be dry and still enjoy the trip.

Bob you said "removed" not resigned. Am I to understand that your troop parents were not behind you? That stinks. Nothing bothers me more than people who insist on making Boy Scout Troops into Cub Packs. (All who take offense to that , sorry, but it's true.)

It definately sounds like the CC wants to be Scoutmaster too. Last I heard the CC can't cancel trips. Well, not in our Troop anyway. Sounds like you gave it your all and it's time to move on.

I am in total agreement with jmcquillan. I have been through that process before and that is pretty much what we did too and it works well. He is also correct in that it is about a two year process. The situation that he described is the only time I think that the adults should control the program completely. I have a post (or two) in the venture crew section ya'll might want to look at for more info.

Thank God others in Scouting share my belief in the importance of failure. Everything I know I screwed up the first time around. Now I know better.....I hope.

Glad you like it. Though that one up myself. (said while sticking out chest, adjusting shirt, and speaking two octaves lower. chuckle)

Something I though I should mention. We have a small troop (19 kids) so we form one line. Last week we had 22 Webelos visit and we ran them through the test too (square knot of course.) When you have a large group you need to form more than one line or you will never have a meeting.

Try these.

This is a planning list

http://www.playdesigns.com/pd_planning.html

http://www.detailedplay.com/Plans.htm

This one is just a bunch of links to commercial plan sites http://www.world-playground.com/doit.htm

Hope this helps.

I have a request.

Bobwhite when you solve your problem please post the the results and what you did to to address the issue. Most of the time folks ask for help and we don't get to hear about the resolution of the problem. It would really help other Scouters when they run into potentially ugly situations to hear how others solved them.

I personally could have used some of that kind of input when I became Scoutmaster. I was Committe Chairman and had to remove and take the place of the current Scoutmaster. No easy task when you are only 27 and the only adult leader without any kids at all, much less any in the troop. Luckily it all worked out well and the former Scoutmaster is still an active and valued member of the troop. If I had the example of someone elses situation I might have avoided the bruised egos and feelings that we had to deal with.

OK, good research cjmiam. I was not aware that Agnostics had a "governing body" I was always told that Agnosticism rejects codefied belief systems in favor of a personal experience and a personal relationship with God therefore making an Agnostic Church impossible if not just an oxymoron. But hey, I'm not an Agnostic.

Be that as it may, I have sat on two Eagle boards where the Scout being reviewed identified himself as Agnostic (after lengthy discussion). The board in closed discussion was informed by the district advancement chairman that because the both boys stated that they believed that there was a God they should be awarded their Eagles even though the boys both weren't sure what the proper mode of worship and observance was. If they did not believe that there was a God then they were not to be passed. With further thought I stand corrected from my earlied post, A district level Scouter indicated that the BSA will not accept an Athiest as an Eagle.

All of this discussion leads me to think that wether or not the boy calls himself an Agnostic is irrelevant. What matters is that the boy believes that there is a God and that it must be honored and all of the labeling is a non-issue.

This has been a pretty interesting thread. Thanks to all the posters for keeping it polite and calm.

I'm sorry to hear that your local chapter pulled funds, but I'm glad to know that it worked out. The more I hear the more I can't help feeling like the presest supportive relationship with our UW chapter will evaporate and that it is just a matter of time.

I would really like for the people responsable for making these decisions to meet our scouts and tell them face to face why our boys don't deserve support. If they have a problem with a national policy, fine, take it up with the people in suits don't take it out on boys that just want to go camping.

I'm sorry to hear that you are having a rough go of it Oldgreyeagle.

I have to say that I believe that the only way for the Scouting program to be successful is for the youth to lead it. The problem is that the kids have absolutely no idea how to lead it and most leadership training programs in Scouting are woefully inadequate when it comes to teaching kids how to form a program. Most units also get the double whammy of losing older kids right when they should be leading and planning the program. I think the reality is that a program that works well is one that shares the control. Here's how I tackled the problem.

I planned out the entire years program with some room for change. At our patrol leaders council meetings I went through the program plans with the boys and we "planned" it together. The reality of the situation is that the decisions were already made we just had a discussion about the who what where when how and why of it all so that they could get a feel for the process. I purposefully planned about four trips that I knew that they would hate (one per season.) When those trips were brought up the whole room groaned. "Do we have to do that?" they asked, I replied "No, it's your program. If you have better ideas lets hear them. If you don't speak up and take charge of your troop you will be stuck with lame trips like this one." So then the boys planned those four trips with the help of the adult leadership. Eventually the kids will just fall into the role of taking care of their share of the program (with a lot of coaching.) It has been about a year and a half and the boys handle a good portion of the program but not all.

For me it is enough for the kids to tell me they want to do a trip and do a little research on it. I also stress the use of the internet to find out about trips. There are several good sites that can get you pointed in the right direction. (If anyone wants those addresses just let me know, I'm putting together a list)

It amazes me to watch these guys plan a trip in just how considerate they are of each others needs. Most of my guys attend public school but we also have about 4 that attend private schools that have a different schedule from the public system. I suggested they get schedules from their schools and bring them to planning meetings.

Now as for high adventure trips, we plan those about 6 months out. With that much time and anticipation we usually get their time. Despite what many people say, we ARE competeing for these kids time. Another big issue is how well do you know your kids interests? How about looking at what your kids are choosing over your program and model something after it or take the portions that they like and add them to your program?

My best example of that is that where we live has some of the best fishing around. I'm not a fisherman, I'm a backpacker but almost all of my boys love to fish. So I suggested we combine the two. Now the boys are considering a backpacking/fishing trip to the Smokies. Hike in one day to a fishing hole. Spend the next day fishing. Next day hike to a new hole, and spend a day fishing it ect....

Guess what, I'm learning to flyfish from my boys. I love it!

I have never had a problem with my orders from Scouter.com. I have order twice and both were filled accurately and promptly.

I have not had a need to contact them and as such can't comment.

This is very distrubing to hear.

Something we do to help the Scouts to "Be Prepared" is that we charge admission to our meetings. The fee is to demonstrate a Scout skill. One week it might be a clove hitch, the next it could be name the hurry cases. You could even do this with Scout history. Once the Scout successfully demonstrates the skill he is allowed in. We try to be sure the skill is something that we have taught recently but any skill will do. You can also vary the difficulty depending on the scouts ability. (Ya'll should have seen square knot night when our Eagle Scouts were asked to tie all the required Scout knots blindfolded. Everybody got a kick out of that one!) This is an open book test meaning if the Scout doesn't remember the skill he can go to the back of the line, look at his book and try again-after he has closed the book. The trick is that your Instructors, older Scouts and adults need to be there to coach along the Boys that are having trouble remembering the skill asked of them. The boys that have entered the meeting take care of dues or take part in a game that others can enter at any time. The test starts as soon as boys arrive for the meeting but the meeting doesn't "start" until the last scout is in.(This message has been edited by Mike Long)

Yikes!!!

I teach our scouts about the history of the movement mostly through Scoutmaster's minutes. I do think that the boys should read the handbook but most kids don't or won't. I too am not sure that we should have a merit badge on the subject, it just seems to me that our history is something that each boy should know to just be a Scout and not a "option" that they can get a badge for (or choose not to)

Another way that I teach Scout history is that I have declared February "Scout History Month" and at each meeting I tell a little part of the story. Start with the unknown Scout, Brownsea, how scouting in America existed before the founding of the BSA, Aurther Eldred (First Eagle) ect. The Scouts really like the stories. The trick is to make it a story not a lesson.

I agree and in that lies the challenge before us.

Mean and low? No, just very frustrated and tossing out poorly-thought out sentiments.