Mafaking

"I feel like this will really be detrimental to the pack."

The situation already is a detriment to the pack.

"I feel like I have got to stop them."

Why? Let the den that wants to have their own Blue and Gold have one.

Neither den wants to co-mingle so why force this situation? I think you may be looking at this as the CC you failed to keep harmony within the ranks. I doubt there was much you could have done to change the course of this wreck.

Rather than have a very tense Blue and Gold with parents glaring at each other, allow the other den to hold their own. Go to both. Tensions will be high under any arrangement, but I think the two B&G's will diminish the overall level of discomfort.

Go with the flow, don't force it to your will.

We have now had the Scouter.com Choir pop in with the popular hymn "the Scouts should be allowed to lead." Well done! Kudo you were a little late on the base.

The bigger issue is in the title "adults need to learn to let go". Agreed! and your post supports why overwhelming parental involvement destroys opportunities for scouts and drives good scouts out.

Lisabob (committee member?) only has so many options.

I don't know how a single member of the troop committee can change the course of the troop. The troop obviously has parents that see boogie-men around every corner and adult leadership which has a high tolerance for hovering parents.

I like the responses that the surplus adults on the trip need to understand that they are there 1) for their own interests 2) for the safety of the youths. This may be clear to frequent users of these forms but to an involved parent who has been on most of the outings they probably have a different perception of their role in the troop. Good luck correcting that one.

With the wisdom of hindsight: I would have separated into two hiking groups. My first choice would be one with just youths hiking and one with just adult hiking. Then pick points on the trail for rendezvous (at the ravine, a trail intersection, campsite). If that ratio didn't work (because the parents cried foul) pick one or two of the faster and quieter adults to go with the youths.

Walkie talkies can smooth out some concerns. But realistically unless we are talking highly technical climbing or cliff walking, being two miles down a footpath in the woods is no great danger.

The scout who spoke up good for him. The other adults saw what he was seeing and did not do enough to stop the overbearing parents. He had to do the adviser's job and it wasn't pretty.

We (BSA Peoples) serve the public. The greater good of the community.

By installing in youths a sense of citizenship and character the public as a whole is better off. The CO and the unit leaders share in this service. CO's that decide to not re-charter a unit have come to the conclusion that A) A general public service is not our agenda only a congregational service is what we are after. B) Our resources can better serve the public by investing in other opportunities.

There are two things to the Green Bar system that are worth commenting on.

First Green Bar nails it in that you can't really teach management theory to a 13 years old. Concepts of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, Servant Leadership and even EDGE are all vague notions meant to explain human behavior within a group. These programs have a clinical design concept of a static group with rational individuals. The theory is that the leader can just tap into the program's formalistic approach to management and achieve great results.

PL: "scoutmaster they won't clean-up the cooking pots".

SM: "Have you appealed to their self actualization's needs? Try that, it should help."

PL: "huh?"

So Green Bar recognized that (even before Power Point) that to develop leadership in a class room environment is fool hardy. The scout must learn leadership through his own practice and through the advice and council of the adult leadership.

On the other hand. Green Bar's approach to run the PLC as a patrol lead by the scoutmaster is a about where most troops end up. They wind up with the worlds oldest patrol leader teaching leadership by doing things. The scouts learn leadership in the way that Green Bar intended by showing the scouts while out on activities. But its the next step that is missing. Its where the scouts gets an opportunity to really lead his patrol that seems to have fallen to the way side. The scouts are all too eager to absorb and observe the leadership of the adult but never feel complete of confident enough in their training to take charge.

Finally, Green Bar expectations were that the SM would spend lots of time with his PLC. He casually mentions that in one of his Chats "while at the movies with your SPL discuss..". Great! when was the last time just you and your SPL went to the movies?

I am not slamming the Green Bar patrol. But it is in itself another management concept. Results are only realized when the exact formalistic approach is used. Lots of time spent withe PLC members, separate campouts and so forth. Fail that and the model won't produce.

The new scout patrol is designed to support obtaining the first class Rank. The quoted text states this. As with most things in life there is a trade off. You want a bigger yard, you need to move further into the country. You want to live next to the good school, you will need to pay more money. Give and take!

Does the New scout patrol method, with separate but equal type meeting plans detract from the units individual patrol strength? Is this the give and take of the New Scout patrol?

The traditional role of the patrol leader is to teach and help his scouts obtain rank. Now we use the new scout patrol method and one Troop guide. One scout to lead a bunch of highly charged 11 year olds that need to be focused and directed to meet the business like target of making first class. This is done away from the normal troop meeting.

The task of keeping a bunch of 11 year olds focused while inside a meeting hall on rank seems will no doubt overwhelm the 13 year old Star scout Troop Guide. So the adults step in. The cub scout program is extended the adults are happy the parents are happy every body is happy. Right?

The PL are left to hang with their buds who all got rank the same way. The patrols sit around and wonder why meetings seem to have no meaning to them.

Give and take! Give them first class via the New Scout patrol system and take away a major component of the patrol system. Leadership which could have been brought out naturally in the PL as he taught a subject matter he was very familiar with "Scoutcraft" is gone.

Well it's that time of year again to discuss and review the application of the New Scout patrol method. Blue and Golds are just around the corner and with them are the Arrow of Light and Cross Over Ceremonies.

Let's review: "A new-Scout patrol is for 11-year-old Scouts who have recently joined the troop. They function together as a patrol during their first year in the troop, working toward the goal of completing the requirements for First Class. ....During troop meetings, new Scouts have separate instruction sessions and patrol meetings."

Is the material suggesting the New Scout Patrol is separate but equal?

Last year we brought in the new scouts put them in a new scout patrol and then after summer camp divided them up among the three mixed aged patrols. The results were a tick above "not bad".

My questions are:

I plan to do the same thing again this year bring in new scout and then in August split them up. Is this the best way?

Last year the new scout patrol adopted a critter, a patrol name and even made a call only to see their efforts for nought as they were dived among the existing patrols. If I continue with this practice of splitting do I omit the critter adoption phase?

Does anyone else think the leader's material on this subject is insufficiently developed?

(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

I compliment the TG on being thorough but my threshold is lower. A hand written note with all the critters he saw on the campout or around his house is good enough for me. Usually I will pick a few at random to discuss with the scout. If his eyes light up and as he starts tell me about seeing the critter I give creedence that the requirement was met.

I hear district chairman, executive, commissioner and other titles. Who reports to who and which ones are that paid ones? Got an organizational chart?

Oops, jokes on me I mis-read the post.

I agree with what evmori posted.

Bob White it was presented as a riddle.

At first you would glance over the facts and think four POR's Life to Eagle OK.

'Here is another wrinkle. True Story. Eagle candidate served two terms as SPL as Star. Then as Life Scout took position as Scribe then Troop Guide during his tenure. Has he fulfilled his POR requirements?'

No not for Eagle. He did not complete six months in a POR after reaching Life.

Actually I used that site when I bought my last knife. I have an AST 34 blade and although it takes a little longer to sharpen ii holds an edge twice as long as my previous knife (non descript SS blade)

I just thought it was interesting that in 1982 the market hadn't yet decided and now it seems to have settled on SS blades. I should compare with a current general purpose outdoor handbook and see if it even mentions the great blade debate.

I was reading an old outdoor book the other day and and it mentioned that there is a strong debate on whether a pocket knife's blade should be carbon steel or a stainless steel. The writer went on to say that the carbon steel blade people prefer this type because it holds an edge better and can be sharpened in the field. The SS people like the convenience of no rust.

Well after 25 years the debate seems settled. Any look at what is offered by Wal-Mart or even Cabelas and the 99% are SS blades for pocket knives.

I carry a SS blade pocket knife and have for years.

(This message has been edited by Mafaking)

Boy scouts who leave scouting at the first class and star ranks, what are the odds that they will come back to scouting? 1-100, 1-50, 1-20, 1-5, 1-2?

I just checked my copy of the original Scouting for Boys and there is nothing in there that prohibits teleconferencing.